Well that didn’t last long....lol

[ng_randolph]

Thanks for the opinions and help folks. But as I am not an auto tech, it takes a while to digest all this. There’s no doubt I can figure it all out (testing wiring, solenoids, etc.) but I have no way to get underneath the car - that’s beyond my scope, since I usually leave that to my local mechanic. I can do things which involve multi-meters and screw drivers, but underneath? Not at the moment

There is a dirty little secret to owning a 40+ year old inexpensive classic car: If you can't, for the most part, be your own mechanic, the experience is not going to be very good. Fortunately, most of the things you come across with these cars can be done by an enthusiastic novice with a bit of help. To get under the car you should get a set of jack stands and a good floor jack. The jack that comes with the car is fine for changing a flat, but you will want a floor jack for use in the garage. I have the $79 aluminum 1.5 ton "Racing Floor Jack" from Harbor Freight, and it has served me well. I also have a pair of cheap 6" ramps that I find useful.

 

[ng_randolph]

Battery is also new within the last six months. And yes indeed, we tapped and hammered to no avail

Much like a 1/2" water pipe does not measure 1/2", a 12V electrical system does not operate at 12V. With the engine running, the nominal voltage for an X1/9 is 14V. Engine off with a fully charged battery you should see around 12.7V, depending on battery type. At 12.17V, your battery is at around 50% charge (half full or half empty, you decide...), so before trying to diagnose any electrical problem you should fully charge the battery.

You have two separate problems on your hands: (1) The alternator does not adequately charge the car with the engine running, and (2) the starter won't engage with a partially drained battery. Your choice which to tackle first, but definitely charge the battery before proceeding.

As for your earlier question about vendors not accepting returns on electrical parts: If you buy and install a new alternator, only to find out that the alternator wasn't the problem, they won't take it back. If they ship you a defective part, however, they will exchange it. Over the years I have had minor hiccups with most of our vendors, but it has never taken more than a single e-mail to get things sorted out.

 

[tvmaster]

Much like a 1/2" water pipe does not measure 1/2", a 12V electrical system does not operate at 12V. With the engine running, the nominal voltage for an X1/9 is 14V. Engine off with a fully charged battery you should see around 12.7V, depending on battery type. At 12.17V, your battery is at around 50% charge (half full or half empty, you decide...), so before trying to diagnose any electrical problem you should fully charge the battery.

You have two separate problems on your hands: (1) The alternator does not adequately charge the car with the engine running, and (2) the starter won't engage with a partially drained battery. Your choice which to tackle first, but definitely charge the battery before proceeding.

As for your earlier question about vendors not accepting returns on electrical parts: If you buy and install a new alternator, only to find out that the alternator wasn't the problem, they won't take it back. If they ship you a defective part, however, they will exchange it. Over the years I have had minor hiccups with most of our vendors, but it has never taken more than a single e-mail to get things sorted out.

If their rebuilt part implodes, THEN do they generally honor exchanges? As far as battery charges go - that's what I read: 12.2 volts and less is 50% charge. Now, as it hasn't run in five days, it's down to 12.02 volts. I did try to jump it with my reliable Mazda 3, but the starter never cranked the engine, even then.

UPDATE: pulled out the battery charger today and got the battery back up to 12.90 volts. Still won’t crank.

 

[tvmaster]

1. "frayed wire going into trans" sounds like the main engine to chassis ground. It is a copper braided ground strap. It goes from a threaded plate welded to the chassis, to one of the case half capscrews on the transaxle. Over time due to powerplant movement in its mounts, the braids have a tendency to un-braid themselves and give a "frayed" look. Here's the needed item at MWB:
Fiat X19 Transmission Ground Strap At Transaxle (Fiat Bertone X19 All) - U8 (midwest-bayless.com)

2. Unless '74s are different, I am having a hard time visualize a coolant hose that would normally be within rubbing distance of the alt-wp-crank belt. I suppose the heater hose going from the right rear corner of the cyl head could be in harms way if it was wildly misrouted.....

Previous owners COMPLETELY replaced the cooling system, so that’s where we’ll start when we can get in the lift bay. The frayed wire is the one we discussed previously, which you sent me two links for

 

[tvmaster]

There is a dirty little secret to owning a 40+ year old inexpensive classic car: If you can't, for the most part, be your own mechanic, the experience is not going to be very good. Fortunately, most of the things you come across with these cars can be done by an enthusiastic novice with a bit of help. To get under the car you should get a set of jack stands and a good floor jack. The jack that comes with the car is fine for changing a flat, but you will want a floor jack for use in the garage. I have the $79 aluminum 1.5 ton "Racing Floor Jack" from Harbor Freight, and it has served me well. I also have a pair of cheap 6" ramps that I find useful.

6”? aka the car is elevated 6” off the ground? Doesn’t sound like much, but I’m not a mechanic. Is that enough elevation to work on these things? 1500 lbs is enough - I thought we’d need at least 2k...

1.5 Ton Low-Profile Aluminum Racing Floor Jack with RAPID PUMP

Amazing deals on this 1.5T Aluminum Racing Jack W/ Rapid Pump at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.

www.harborfreight.com

4000 lb. Capacity Solid Steel Auto Ramp Set

Amazing deals on this Solid Steel Auto Ramp Set at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.

www.harborfreight.com

 

[ng_randolph]

6”? aka the car is elevated 6” off the ground? Doesn’t sound like much, but I’m not a mechanic. Is that enough elevation to work on these things?

Yes, 6 inches. Driving the rear up on 6" ramps gives you plenty of space to crawl under the car and replace things like the starter.
EDIT: You may want to be cautious about backing a '74 up on ramps; The '74 had the 16 mm dia. reverse idler shaft, which can bend under excessive load. Others might have a more well founded opinion on whether or not it is OK to back the early cars up ramps.

These kind of things? 1500 lbs is enough - I thought we’d need at least 2k...

1.5 Ton Low-Profile Aluminum Racing Floor Jack with RAPID PUMP

Amazing deals on this 1.5T Aluminum Racing Jack W/ Rapid Pump at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.

www.harborfreight.com

1.5 ton is 3000 pounds ( or 3360 pounds or 3307 pounds, for long and metric tons), which is plenty for the X1/9.

4000 lb. Capacity Solid Steel Auto Ramp Set

Amazing deals on this Solid Steel Auto Ramp Set at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.

www.harborfreight.com

I have a set of plastic ramps. The slope is a bit gentler than the ones you showed, so a little easier to drive up on.

 

[Agnelli]

Be sure to firmly chock both your front wheels in front of and behind each tire when you lift the rear (or vice versa). You don’t want the car drifting off the jack stands. When you are under the car it’s also prudent to stack wheels or large blocks under the car as a safety backup.

 

[kmead]

I would never back one up the ramps (due to the extreme load on the reverse gear, reverse is a known gearbox weakness). I would use the jack and two jack stands to work on the rear. There is a nice center lift point on the rear crossmember which ensure you can lift the car evenly.

The X doesn’t work well with normal ramps due to the front overhang, you need to add some wood as a pre ramp to get up in many cases. Try not to drive over the front edge.

 

[beezee]

Be very careful working on the starter with the car on ramps. If the car is in gear, inadvertently activating the starter could result in the car coming off the ramps. I ALWAYS remove the negative battery cable before attempting this type of work.

Brian

 

[tvmaster]

Thanks folks - for now, anything serious goes to my local mechanic and we’ll learn this car together. The most I’d do underneath is wiring, examining, poking around. Excellent info though, thanks

 

[AnthonyG]

It sounds like you prefer to let your local professional mechanic get to the bottom of problems, which is fine. Just keep in mind, it's always worth referring to the service manuals, and doing topic searches of the pages and archives here, to avoid pitfalls and make things far easier on yourself. Even the most experienced mechanic can save time and frustration and more quickly discover how to address issues specific to the X more effectively by doing their homework here first. Or if they don't have the time or inclination, you can do it for them, and pass on what you have discovered when you bring the car in. This can be especially useful if they've never worked on an X. There is wealth of information in these pages and the archives. If you're experiencing a particularly puzzling issue, it's a virtual guarantee that at some point multiple someones here have gotten to the bottom of it, dealt with it, and passed on learned wisdom about the pitfalls and solutions in detail. That goes for performance mods and improvements as well. And some of the folks responding to you here are true Xperts (Steve H, Bjorn, Karl, Dan, Bernice..!) who have known the quirks and features of this car inside and out for many decades. Their free advice is priceless! Heed it, or at least pass those ideas and suggestions on to your mechanic. No need to learn the hard way, in instances where others may have already done that for you. Good luck. Share what you learn.

 

[tvmaster]

I would never back one up the ramps (due to the extreme load on the reverse gear, reverse is a known gearbox weakness). I would use the jack and two jack stands to work on the rear. There is a nice center lift point on the rear crossmember which ensure you can lift the car evenly.

The X doesn’t work well with normal ramps due to the front overhang, you need to add some wood as a pre ramp to get up in many cases. Try not to drive over the front edge.

On another front, the previous owners put in a brand new heater hose, but forgot to clamp it off, resulting in the hose being worn away by the timing belt mechanism. Great. Mr. Fiat repair guy said he replaced the entire hose, even though it had just been replaced. I imagine he thought it was compromised? I haven’t asked about his rates. What would anyone think this should cost, hose and labor to run it?

 

[ng_randolph]

On another front, the previous owners put in a brand new heater hose, but forgot to clamp it off, resulting in the hose being worn away by the timing belt mechanism. Great. Mr. Fiat repair guy said he replaced the entire hose, even though it had just been replaced. I imagine he thought it was compromised? I haven’t asked about his rates. What would anyone think this should cost, hose and labor to run it?

View attachment 38925

If it were my car, I would also have replaced the hose. Midwest-Bayless sells heater hose at $1.79 / foot, so the cost of hose is not going to be bad. I would be surprised if your mechanic charges more than 1/2 hour of labor for the hose replacement. But then again, I don't know how tricky access is at the other end of the hose.

 

[dllubin]

I paid $1.62/foot for Gates 28411 Safety Stripe 5/8" heater hose. There are two heater hoses. One goes to the metal pipe under the car and the other one (at least on a 74) goes to a double male fitting where it connects to a hose that goes through the firewall and into the tunnel where it connects to a metal pipe that then connects to another rubber hose that goes to the heater. Since my metal pipe in the tunnel was leaking from where they welded a mounting bracket to it, I just replaced the entire mess with 10 feet of the above hose going from the engine to the heater. That eliminated three junctions. The hose was secured in the tunnel with 3/4" EMT single hole straps. There is actually enough room in the tunnel to run both heater lines. Not sure why they chose to run one under the car with the radiator pipes.

As far as the labor goes, if he just replaced the hose going under the car or the one that connects to another hose, I can't imagine it taking more than an hour.

What kind of shape is the timing belt in after being used as a band saw?

 

[tvmaster]

I paid $1.62/foot for Gates 28411 Safety Stripe 5/8" heater hose. There are two heater hoses. One goes to the metal pipe under the car and the other one (at least on a 74) goes to a double male fitting where it connects to a hose that goes through the firewall and into the tunnel where it connects to a metal pipe that then connects to another rubber hose that goes to the heater. Since my metal pipe in the tunnel was leaking from where they welded a mounting bracket to it, I just replaced the entire mess with 10 feet of the above hose going from the engine to the heater. That eliminated three junctions. The hose was secured in the tunnel with 3/4" EMT single hole straps. There is actually enough room in the tunnel to run both heater lines. Not sure why they chose to run one under the car with the radiator pipes.

As far as the labor goes, if he just replaced the hose going under the car or the one that connects to another hose, I can't imagine it taking more than an hour.

What kind of shape is the timing belt in after being used as a band saw?

Well, he didn’t mention any timing belt issues, but did say the clutch was too tight, and that they’d put in the wrong battery (he didn’t say what the ‘right’ battery was - he’s not big on answering questions. It’s a long story). He DID say the hose has a natural clamping point, but the previous mechanics didn’t use it.
And, he adjusted the carburetor, noting they’d done that wrong too. Definitely not master mechanics in his book. Seemed to run fine before the starter went, but I guess I need to learn all about carburetors now.
Nothing worse than paying for new parts and labor, twice. From what you say, it shouldn’t have taken him long, especially considering his experience. Thanks, that makes it a little easier to take...

 

[dllubin]

The stock battery was size 24F.

 

[tvmaster]

Well, my inexperience and the previous owner’s errors (according to Mr. Old FIAT Repair Guy), cost a lot of money today, including between five - ten hours of labor charges. Starter was $120. Hose, replacement lighter and some screws/clamps.

But in reality, not being able to figure out the ideograms system was the only thing I feel kinda stupid about, especially with the info and photos I posted. The solutions were simple, and ended up costing two/three hours of labor.

On the other hand, I wouldn’t have been able to loosen the clutch, adjust the carb, fix the hose error, replace the starter, fix the back-up light cable, know what I was looking for regarding electrical errors/alterations, quickly decide the best way to fix the hard-to-close driver’s door, stop the steering wheel from grinding, and readjust the timing belt (or, as has been pointed outbto me by another member, the timing).

Now, that last one - Mr. OFRG said that while the previous techs marked and had set it as per the manual, the car‘s timing (?) actually likes to be adjusted just slightly off from where the manual directs rookie techs to do so.

Anyone like to chime in on that knowledge? I’m a ‘by the book‘ guy, but when people who’ve been around these cars all their lives, used to build and race them, and are descendants of people who did the same, It’s hard to doubt them, you know?

He also wasn’t happy with the work done on the clutch, and expected I‘d be back when the throttle body started to fail.
So that was re-assuring, considering the previous owner’s put in a clutch re-build kit.

On the upside, it starts right up, way stronger than it did before. And that’s a beginning....

Happy Turkey/Tofurkey Day folks

 

[ng_randolph]

Now, that last one - Mr. OFRG said that while the previous techs marked and had set it as per the manual, the car‘s timing belt actually likes to be adjusted just slightly off from where the manual directs rookie techs to do so.

I suspect he adjusted the "timing" (i.e. ignition timing), not the "timing belt". The other timing to vary is valve timing, and unless you have an after market adjustable cam pulley, valve timing can not be adjusted "just slightly off". With a '74 you are exempt from emissions testing, but people who are not, often set ignition timing by the book before a smog check, then adjust it again for better drivability after the test is done.

 

[tvmaster]

I suspect he adjusted the "timing" (i.e. ignition timing), not the "timing belt". The other timing to vary is valve timing, and unless you have an after market adjustable cam pulley, valve timing can not be adjusted "just slightly off". With a '74 you are exempt from emissions testing, but people who are not, often set ignition timing by the book before a smog check, then adjust it again for better drivability after the test is done.

Yes, just a smidge off top-dead-center.

 

[MikeHynes]

I recommend that you set the ignition timing to 10' BTDC. I think the manual calls for 5'BTDC or something like that. I'm guessing that is what the tech was talking about.
If you prefer to have someone else do the kind of work the tech did for you it may be in your best interest to cultivate a good relationship with him. You'll likely be working with him again, and again...