Won't shift into 5th or reverse! :-(

Brett

Brett

True Classic
OK, so I bought the car thinking this would be an easy fix, but after several hours of fussing with linkage adjustments, I can't get it to go in 5th or reverse. Sometimes shifting the lever in the car, it sure feels like you are hitting the correct gates, but the car is NOT in reverse of 5th. (It is in 3rd and 4th). I even borrowed linkage of the other non-drivers I have, but still can't make it work. Is it possible that the problem is internal to the transmission? Does this mean a tranny rebuild?? (hope not since that will cost more then the car did)

Any ideas on what to try next?
 
Brett said:
OK, so I bought the car thinking this would be an easy fix, but after several hours of fussing with linkage adjustments, I can't get it to go in 5th or reverse. Sometimes shifting the lever in the car, it sure feels like you are hitting the correct gates, but the car is NOT in reverse of 5th. (It is in 3rd and 4th). I even borrowed linkage of the other non-drivers I have, but still can't make it work. Is it possible that the problem is internal to the transmission? Does this mean a tranny rebuild?? (hope not since that will cost more then the car did)

Any ideas on what to try next?
Click to expand...

Disconnect the linkage, then use a vise-grips on the the transmission shift input shaft and try selecting the gears that way... See if you can find them that way. If you can, it's still the linkage, and you can try putting the tranny in fifth, then putting the shifter in fifth, and see how everything lines up.

If you can't select fifth and reverse with the linkage out of the picture, the next step is to drain the transmission oil, take the end cap off, and see if there's something messed up with fifth-gear fork or selector rod. Fifth gear is in its own separate section of the tranny, in an extension on the end of the case, so you can get at it without pulling the tranny and opening it up. Try pushing the selector rod in while selecting trying to select fifth gear, see what happens.
 
EricH said:
Disconnect the linkage, then use a vise-grips on the the transmission shift input shaft and try selecting the gears that way... See if you can find them that way. If you can, it's still the linkage, and you can try putting the tranny in fifth, then putting the shifter in fifth, and see how everything lines up.

If you can't select fifth and reverse with the linkage out of the picture, the next step is to drain the transmission oil, take the end cap off, and see if there's something messed up with fifth-gear fork or selector rod. Fifth gear is in its own separate section of the tranny, in an extension on the end of the case, so you can get at it without pulling the tranny and opening it up. Try pushing the selector rod in while selecting trying to select fifth gear, see what happens.
Click to expand...

+1

I had the same issue with mine. Though at first I could get 5th and reverse and then couldn't. For me it just turned out the linkage had slipped a bit at the connector between the trans and shift rod (I'd call it the "lollipop" but it isn't like the connector on the earlier car).
 
shifting without linkage

For some reason, I can't shift MeloYelo's transmission with vice-grips either, but it worked in the car, so I'm not sure this method of testing is working for me. I can't seem to get it to twist very much, and the degree of turn is so slight I'm unsure whether I'm picking up different gears or not. The pushing in and out works ok :)
 
I'll just add that the linkage connection seems pretty picky to me. I've fiddled with mine ('81 lollipop style) and every time I do it makes a marked difference in how gears feel when selected. Just the other day I had the car up on stands for other reasons, decided to adjust the linkage because 2nd/ 4th and 5th felt wrong. Moved the stick through every gear, then wiggled it around in neutral to let it "self center", then under the car loosened the two linkage bolts and tightened again. Feels much better.
 
Brett said:
For some reason, I can't shift MeloYelo's transmission with vice-grips either, but it worked in the car, so I'm not sure this method of testing is working for me. I can't seem to get it to twist very much, and the degree of turn is so slight I'm unsure whether I'm picking up different gears or not. The pushing in and out works ok :)
Click to expand...

It takes bit of practice to feel the middle position between all-in and all-out, and it's only in that neutral position does it rotate... Maybe 20 degrees or so each way.

Presumably you have the back of the car raised? You can turn the crankshaft at the pulley and see which way the wheels turn - that will confirm whether you've found reverse (all the way in, rotated towards passenger side)
 
!

It really sounds to me like your shifter linkage is worn out or bent to the point that you can't reach far enough to engage the 5th gear gate. The travel of the stick shift itself will limit travel distance, and if the shifter rod is worn or bent, the shifter will bottom out on it's housing.

Of course there are internal tranny reasons too, such as the screw falling out of the shifter fork. But that would still leave you in neutral. If the gears were stripped or jammed, you would still be in neutral or grinding gears. If the shift rod were bent or rusted you would have a stiff shifter feel.

You keep ending up in 3rd gear, so you just aren't reaching 5th. It's got to be wear in the shifter or linkage, or maybe your motor mounts are so wasted the entire engine is crooked? Bent frame?
 
Maybe mounts...

when I have my son shift it into different gears, I can see the shift rod pushing the motor around. Not a lot, but... Wasn't sure how much engine movement is normal as I've never lain under the car while someone was shifting before.
After a couple more hours of fussing with it though (and at least getting the exhaust leak fixed) I decided to switch back to working on getting MeloYelo's flywheel, pressure plate and clutch into the Little Black 80, and get ready to put MeloYelo's transmission in it. Stopped short of actually installing the trans - taking it out gravity works for you. Couldn't figure out how to lift it without a floor jack, and the only one I have is under the oil pan holding the motor up, so I think that's a good excuse to go buy another floor jack.
If I get the trans into the Little Black X then I'll have something to compare too...
So another day working on Xs, still no X to drive - but progress being made :)
 
Make a hoist and use it...

Here is the original...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/12159/message/1115271836/One-person+transmission+install

I used a bike hook into a rafter and a 2 or 3/1 pulley and went straight up and down with it above the car. A second time I installed two bike hooks horizontally on the ceiling across the back of the car, then made a ROPE GANTRY between them. I could then position the trans right or left... and roll the car fore and aft, to get the trans where I wanted it.

Rudy's photos show a floor jack but its not needed really... The trans weighs about 91 pounds and the pulley system (or an engine hoist, cherry-picker style) is really the way to go... especially if you have a helper.

I installed my trans alone one day in about 1/2 hour using this method. I also used an "alignment stud" at the "2 o'clock position" made from a 12 x 1.25 bolt with the head cut off and a slot sawed into the end to unscrew it. This stud, used in conjunction with the factory stud at the "4 o'clock position" will usually center the transmission's input shaft perfectly into the clutch plate. Here is the narrative... I'll try and add a foto as the old pictures are gone.



 
Brett said:
when I have my son shift it into different gears, I can see the shift rod pushing the motor around. Not a lot, but... Wasn't sure how much engine movement is normal as I've never lain under the car while someone was shifting before.
Click to expand...

Hard to say without actually being there, but it sure sounds like that's a big part of the problem. I'm betting long odds that the guts of the tranny are basically good.
 
might try having someone hold the stick cocked slightly off dead center neutral (still in neutral, but favoring slight driver's side) then tighten the linkage, might give a little more to work with shifting the "right most" gears, like 5th and reverse)
 
sounds good in theory, but I'm missing something in practice??

sounds good in theory, but I'm missing something in practice??

There is only one place to adjust the linkage that I'm aware of, that being where the shift rod connects to the lollipop. That adjustment seems to be mostly just for shortening or lengthening the effective length of the rod, so I can see how it would adjust whether things are going into gears when you move the shift knob forwards and backwards (one of my adjustments had it too 'long' so that it wouldn't stay in 4th for instance, because there wasn't enough 'pull' left). Since the rod and the lollipop rod are both flat pieces of metal, I don't get how adjustments here translate into adjustments to the rotation, or left/right movement of the shifter. Am I missing something?

Besides those two bolts, the only other bolt is on the transmission side of the lollipop and the bolt going through is collared so that it pivots, and there doesn't seem to be any real adjustment there.
 
Brett said:
I can see how it would adjust whether things are going into gears when you move the shift knob forwards and backwards (one of my adjustments had it too 'long' so that it wouldn't stay in 4th for instance, because there wasn't enough 'pull' left). Since the rod and the lollipop rod are both flat pieces of metal, I don't get how adjustments here translate into adjustments to the rotation, or left/right movement of the shifter.
Click to expand...

It works, because you can angle the flat tab slightly sideways and then the angle of the lollipop gives you a bit of sideways leverage... Hard to explain, but jvandyke's trick has worked for me.

Two other things as well:
- You've already mentioned the motor mounts. They could easily be the problem if they're letting the motor move excessively... And even if the motor doesn't move as you try to select fifth and reverse, bad motor mounts can let the engine sag into a position where those gears are just unreachable.
- If the shifter itself is hanging up on something or jammed, or the rod in the linkage is bent or twisted, it may not be letting you reach fifth/reverse. That's why I suggested earlier that you manually put the transmission in fifth, then put the shift lever in fifth, and see how things line up.
 
also: long seat belt bolt

At one time I replaced the passenger seat belt receptacle bolt (on the tunnel side) with a longer one. The shift shaft would hit it and not allow me to get into 5th or reverse.

A long shot, but possible.

When my bottom motor mount was bad, it was difficult getting 5th.

Paul Davock
 
PaulD said:
At one time I replaced the passenger seat belt receptacle bolt (on the tunnel side) with a longer one. The shift shaft would hit it and not allow me to get into 5th or reverse.
Click to expand...

That must have a been a lot of fun to figure out :hmm:

Someone here (I think Mark Plaia) tipped me off to the bracket in the tunnel of at least some '74s that will stop a 5-speed shifter from catching fifth gear... Might never have figured out what was wrong with my five-speed conversion otherwise.
 
Yep... as Paul and Eric said...

The shifter itself can be limiting movement necessary to reach those gears and it is the lollipop or link that will usually cure the problem when properly adjusted. Several factors like the motor mounts and other tunnel intrusions have PROVEN to sideline us at one time or another.

I have also found a few problems with lollipops as well. Usually softened from grease or oil over the years. Going under one car I found a lollipop with THREE self-tapping drywall screws run through it to stiffen it up. The FIX that day was to remove the screws, drill a 1/4 inch hole through everything... and BOLT it almost solid!

My '79 does not have a lollipop, but has a LINK and with two bolts to the shifter and a FLOATING bolt the attaches it to the trans shift rod. I ended up removing the floating bolt and bolting it TIGHT to the shift rod. Nice feel with nice snick-snick-snick shifting...

Just some ideas... be thankful this appears to be an EXTERNAL issue to the trans... and not INTERNAL.
 
Some history...

When I tried to help the guy who had it before the guy who you bought it from, we disconnected the linkage and I manipulated it by hand with vice grips. Even with the car off, we could not get it into the missing gear. It would seem to go into them, but then if we started the car and let the clutch out, nothing. At that time it was only reverse that was missing.

Based on my experience with the car, I suspect the problem is inside the transaxle.
 
budgetzagato said:
When I tried to help the guy who had it before the guy who you bought it from, we disconnected the linkage and I manipulated it by hand with vice grips. Even with the car off, we could not get it into the missing gear. It would seem to go into them, but then if we started the car and let the clutch out, nothing. At that time it was only reverse that was missing.

Based on my experience with the car, I suspect the problem is inside the transaxle.
Click to expand...

OK, that's data about this specific while I've been just going with the general odds... Now I'm worried about the guts of the tranny too:(
 
Greg, I should have asked you about this car BEFORE I bought it. :)

Anyways, I think I will try the suggestion to remove the shoulder bolt and make a tighter connection to the trans shift rod, see if that gives me any additional leverage. Unless any of you think that more leverage might cause further damage inside the trans? I already tried loosening the linkage, moving the stick to the drivers side and re-tightening, but didn't help.
And not to second guess you Greg, but are you sure 5th wasn't missing earlier? There were several times I thought I was in 5th, but running the rpms up with it in gear and the rear end lifted and comparing tach and speed told me I was in 3rd not 5th.

I misread some documentation that came with the car about the trans, thinking it was rebuilt as some point, but the note by Alisoun is that the owner prior to him *might* have rebuilt the trans, circa 1995 or so. While he had the car, there is another note about the shifter springs being replaced, about 20k miles ago.

Given that it might take some time to resolve the issue if its internal to the trans, I decided to drive the car as-is to the DMV for its VIN inspection as a required part of titling the car in Oregon from an out-of-state title, which must be completed in 30 days (since the seller dated the title transfer :(
The car did OK, though besides not having 5th or reverse the 2nd gear syncro is crunchy.

So, I think I have these options (in increasing cost):
1. Follow 5 speed 101 and try to fix myself. I've never rebuilt a transmission before...
2. Buy rebuilt trans from "reputable mechanic" from Oberts - $1000
3. Buy rebuilt trans from Vick's - $1500
4. Buy Obert personally rebuilt trans - $2700 (ouch! but trusted)

I also have a lot of other semi-related work to do, but which I don't think is keeping it from shifting... the lower rear arm on the rear suspension on the driver's side has been "pinched" and is not straight, the upper strut bushing on the rear drivers side has failed despite being replaced 20k miles ago, the boots at the trans are in two pieces (can't run it long that way with road grime getting in there), the motor mounts are all suspect as previously noted... hmm just getting started...
 
What I remember...

I don't recall an issue with 5th, perhaps it was a known issue but we were concentrating on reverse. We had the rear jacked up, and I disconnected the linkage, and tried various movements. What I can't recall is if the reverse lights came on or not. :confused:

I'm no transaxle expert, but can't you remove the end cover and do a sort of inspection? I'd certainly drain the oil and see what's in there with a magnet, but then again the plug has a magnet I think.
 
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