X1/9 2000 International Project

User1 · Feb 14, 2009

<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2><TABLE width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-TOP: 4px" vAlign=top colSpan=2>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]X1/9 2000 International Project

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]July 3 2000 at 1:48 PM[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript>  </SCRIPT>Herzel Frenkel <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT> [/FONT]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom colSpan=3><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=3>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]X 1/9 international project

Our great X 1/9's are getting old. Unfortunately they are not too weather resistance (a subtle statement for "rusting like anchor chains"), the electrical systems are not too reliable and a few other old age problems. But mainly it's the rust. The idea evolved into rebuilding my '85 from corrosion resistance materials. I decided then on building the car from composite materials (carbon epoxy and fiberglass) over a steel tubular frame. These are two techniques that do not require hard tooling and heavy manufacturing equipment. I've been thinking about this idea for about a year now. I have checked with a guy that manufactures composite parts for aircraft and other hi tech industries and he suggested carbon fibers and assured me that the project is technically feasible. It is quite simple to take off a mould from an existing car (mine) and then to lay-up complete car panels. I do not have costs estimate yet. I myself am a mechanical engineer and I own and operate a precision machine shop. I know how to take measurements from my car in order to design a tubular frame with good stiffness and strength and all the support points for all the components such as doors windows, dashboard etc.

This was the WHY and now here is the HOW.
Each of the participants will take it upon him to build and supply some parts of the car. They can be built new, rebuilt or whatever. Each would then build his own X 1/9 that will be based on an existing "donor" car. Each can use whatever parts he chooses to retain from this base car or purchase parts manufactured or supplied by other project members. All mechanical parts such as engine, transmission, steering components, hinges and locks, glass, wheels and so on will not be modified and will come from the donor car. Some may want to develop and supply improved parts (bigger engines, built in sound system or...). Each will set a price on his product and describe its features. Of course - being an Internet base project everything will be open and public so no scams could be done.

1. Project definition
The X 1/9 international project is aimed at building a refreshed version of the Bertone X 1/9.
1. The cars will be built by enthusiast / owners.
2. The project is not aimed at a commercial venture, will not produce
Cars for sale and will not modify or change the basic X 1/9.
3. Each car will be built based on the builder's donor car.
4. The project will be a joint effort of as many enthusiasts as may wish to join, each one contributing whatever he can to the project.
5. The cars will be built on a tubular chassis using composite materials
panels. All original features and dimensions will be retained.
6. Project members and other X1/9 fans will be able to purchase any of the project - developed parts.

Technical items for development:
- body panels moulds
- chassis attachment points for
- suspension
- engine
- power train
- doors hinges and locks
- seats
- dashboard
- fuel tank
- cabin floor
- front and rear trunk floor
- trunks and engine lid hinges and locks
- bumpers
- tubular chassis analysis for strength and stiffness
- electric system
- redesign the wiring system
- fuse box and relays panel
- wiring harnesses

For a start I do need a lot of support. Just show interest, sent comments, add suggestions, refer friends, spread the word, reticule or adore the project, do anything. I do need the audience.
Reply on this site and by e-mail htf@netvision.net.il



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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Author[/FONT]</TD><TD>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Reply[/FONT]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript>  </SCRIPT>Jeff Zucker <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Why?

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]July 3 2000, 4:16 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]It seems the rust on my 4 X's isn't worth the money and time you are proposing. I would assume the type of rebuild you are thinking of would run (at least) several thousand dollars per car. I'll take that money for engine mods, body and paint and still be free of any rust problems, as well as greatly under the costs for a complete frame/body replacement. I don't want to seem like I am bashing your idea, but it just appears the cost vs. benefit ratio is quite poor. - Jeff

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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript>  </SCRIPT>Jeff Zucker <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Also.....

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]July 3 2000, 4:21 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]each "donor" car you use removes one stock X from the pool of existing cars. I, like many on this forum, want to preserve the best examples of this fine automoblile as they were produced from the factory. Of my 4 Xs, I have a low milage '87 that I am restoring to factory new. No mods ever to this car, just better condition stock parts are replaced whenever I can get my hands on them. - Jeff

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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript>  </SCRIPT>Julian <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]But.....

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]July 4 2000, 1:55 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]This is all very true, and valid points - but the majority of X1/9's still in existance are beyond repair now, not because of mechanical failure but because Fiat used a piss-poor source of sheet steel that was rusty before it even got to the car. I have spent an enormous amount of time, effort and money trying to keep my beloved X in prime condition and while the mechanicals are excellent, the bodywork is fading fast and only a total stripdown and rebuild will save it.

The same applies to an awful lot of other X's. Even the ones that appear good on the surface tend to have serious problems (in the UK) and the average cost of putting them right (to the point where they are better than new) extends to about the same as Herzel's concept, quite possibly even more!

You obviously subscribe to the school of thought that they should be preserved, I want to enjoy my car and maintain the looks and while I admire the effort needed to keep an original I do not have the means, or facilities to do so, I could however stretch to a long-life version that doesn't require the constant attention to the chassis and bodywork.

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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript>  </SCRIPT>Jeff Zucker <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Where you live....

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]July 4 2000, 8:02 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]may be an influence in this decision. I live in Southern California, where rust is really not an issue. Rain is only seasonal and the enviroment is "semi-desert"... perfect for preserving rust-prone Xs! I can see if you live in the UK or other damp local, total body panel replacement would be attractive. - Jeff

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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript>  </SCRIPT>Mac <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]I admire the idea

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]July 4 2000, 10:51 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]It is ambition like this that keeps things interesting in our world of X1/9 fanatics

However, I do agree that the technical & logistical efforts to make this happen will be utterly enormous!

I wish Herzel lived closer to us, it would make the entire project seem more feasable. I mean, it could be done regardless, even if parts had to be shipped around the world & all the diagrams/pics/etc were transmitted over the internet, anything is possible, if one wants it badly enough. That is the thinking that got SeattleX1/9 founded against the odds

I am interested to hear more about this project. I do believe, though, as Herzel has said, that it would have to be done as an enthusiasts' undertaking, and not as a commercial venture, otherwise there could be possible legal trouble with Bertone & Fiat. If the goal was simply to build a small handfull of cars, built by individuals for themselves, then that would be no different than anyone else who has ever owned an X1/9 and decided to modify it for themselves... and selling the composite panels etc after-the-fact would be no different from a legal standpoint than any other aftermarket effort to provide reproduction panels. The downside to all this, of course, is that limited numbers means each car would be that much more expensive to build...

I am not interested in passing judgement on the idea of this project, I am however interested in hearing more talk about it

I wonder what kind of cost would be involved in even building just one tube-framed-carbon-fiber-X1/9 body?? -Mac.



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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript>  </SCRIPT>Julian <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 75px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Concept (long)

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]July 4 2000, 2:17 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 75px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]I can't vouch for the cost of panels and I suspect that this where the REAL cost will be. The manufacturing process for CF is something of a pig and requires a great deal of precision.

The chassis itself, in tubular form I would expect to "cost" somewhere in the region of $800-$1000 possibly more depending on the complexity. The concept is to make the chassis such that everything from the donor car is simply bolted into place. While not a quick and easy task it should prove relatively cheap unless you have to replace components as you go.

There is a great book on sale in the UK (and I suspect elsewhere in the world) called "How to build your own sports car for £250" - not suprisingly it generated an enourmous level of interest. In essence it is a guide to the construction of a tube-frame chassis, and how to transplant components from a regular 80's RWD saloon into what is basically a Lotus 7 replica (ironically they have dubbed it the "Locost"). While on a smaller scale than our plan it is not a million miles apart. Most people spend around £800-£1000 building a Locost (if they do it themselves - nearer £3000 if they pay someone else to do it or buy a ready made chassis).

It's also worth remembering that there is a very well established "kit-car" scene in the UK (and Europe) that provides a high level of support businesses and services to anyone wishing to construct their own car. This makes it easier and cheaper to complete a project such as a full transplant into a new, custom chassis and shell.

It doesn't make carbon-fibre any cheaper though. Even with a production line it costs serious money to produce CF panels. The front section of the new TVR Speed 12 is reputed to cost £12000 a piece - although I suspect that part of the cost is the complexity and size of the panel.



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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript>  </SCRIPT>Herzel <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 90px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]good points

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]July 11 2000, 11:43 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 90px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Thanks for the response. Your points are well noted. Where can I get the book you have mentioned? Can I get in touch with experts or proffesionals on tube frame.
Please keep in touch,
Herzel

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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript>  </SCRIPT>Airmax <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 105px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Tubular alarm bells

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]November 11 2000, 3:30 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 105px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Hi Herzel..good to see the space frame X1-9 idea is coming on. We considered the space frame method on early designs to produce a modern ultra-light X1-9 but torsional rigidity was the major problem with an open topped car. The other problem was the Mcpherson strut X1-9 suspension. The suspension load direction was unfavourable if the original X1-9 layout was used. For example, the Stratos uses struts at the rear and double wishbone fronts and we figured this would be a better layout for the project...and then we thought, well heck, if we are going the full chat then make it double wishbone all round and spare the headaches with torsional stiffness. We eventually came to the conclusion that the only realistic option was to make a fiberglass monocoque from the original car specification with some additional stiffness within the lay-up. This provides excellent torsional/beam stiffness, provides accurate mounting points for suspension, doors,covers etc, loose some weight and be totally rust free. The only visual change would be that the outer sill box sections would be four inches taller with slimmer doors. The cost was, in the end, prohibitive, even with a stonking 190bhp Croma turbo engine/ gearbox conversion , we couldn't find anyone prepared to stump up £25'000 for a fully re-built car. So we re-built stock X1-9's into 115bhp X190 RVS's for £5'000 and most people seem pretty happy with that...nevertheless Jevron Motorsport have taken over the X190 project and the ultra-light X1-9 is certainly under discussion again especially with the long-awaited supercharger. It would worth contacting Jevron Motorsport because they build/modify sports/race cars and are very up-to-date on space frame design... jevron@fsmail.net

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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript>  </SCRIPT>ian lawson <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 75px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]I do too!!

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]July 4 2000, 2:30 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 75px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Herzel's concept really is ambitious and very interesting. Has anybody in the world of X1/9 enthusiasts investigated what may have happened to the body panel jigs after the Fiat/Bertone interest in these fine cars ceased? I have just finished reading an excellent book on the history of MG sports cars (the true MG's, T, A, B, C, & V8 models) and it seems that an enthusiasts group in UK purchased the body jigs (and presses!!)from MG at the time the Abingdon UK factory closed. They are now in business as the MG Restoration Club (or something like that) supplying the world with genuine replacement body panels. Maybe only a fantasy dream re something similar for X's but I thought I might just raise the subject. cheers, ian

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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript>  </SCRIPT>Julian <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 90px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Panel Presses

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]July 5 2000, 1:43 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 90px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Amazingly enough the presses are still in use at the factory. The only problem being is that those presses have worn and distorted over time making some genuine replacement body panels impossible to fit. The cost of refabricating the presses is rather prohibitive but I have it on good information that some of them have been refabricated to provide "correct" fitting panels (if there ever was such a thing for the X1/9)

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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript>  </SCRIPT>Mike <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 105px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]who owns them? <NT>

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]July 5 2000, 8:13 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 105px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial].

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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Mac[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 120px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]SOCAR-ICS

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]July 5 2000, 11:39 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 120px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Also known as the 'spare parts' branch of the Bertone Group in Italy ...

http://www.bertone.it -Mac.



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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]scot[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 90px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]aluminum panels

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]July 6 2000, 12:14 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 90px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Weren't there a few X1/9s made in aluminum aloy, in asociation with a large alluminum wholesale corp, I believe. Would a special run off existing dies give us what we want from carbon, but cheaper?

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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Mac[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 105px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Alcan X1/9s

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]July 7 2000, 12:28 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 105px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Five were made of aluminium as a joint experiment between Bertone & Alcan Aluminium. I think only 2 or 3 survive today. We have more info on them here, and a couple of pictures. A black Alcan X was on display at one of the UK X1/9 Club's gigs a while back...

They look more or less stock as a later Bertone model would, except the whole car (clearly) weighs a good deal less. Unfortunately for our press/panel discussion, the Alcan cars were actually stamped from the same presses that made all the regular steel panels. I believe they just did double stacking or somesuch to add strength to the panels & then crammed them through the steel presses

-Mac.



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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript>  </SCRIPT>Herzel <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 75px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]about price

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]July 11 2000, 11:35 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 75px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Thanks for the sincere response, Mac
I am about to get a preliminary cost estimate for the carbon panels. The tube farme is easier to estimate since it is more up my alley.
By the way, on the technical side, I intend to build every thing on the frame. Doors, hinges and lock are all supposed to mount on the tubes and opperate as an "open frame" car. The panel will strictly be panels, covers. This should avoid most fiberglass connection problems.
A question - what is involved in getting such a rebuilt car on the road in The States?
You've mentioned a conflict with Bertone, or ruther the lack of it. What is the ligal situation on the subject. What goes with replicas builders?
Thanks Mac and please keep in touch, Herzel

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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript>  </SCRIPT>scot <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]huge project

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]July 3 2000, 10:17 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]and probably impractical. My restoration took 2 years and $6K ,what you propose is much bigger.I dont wish to kill a dream, but in working over almost every part of my car, I feel that I have a good idea of what a huge job you are proposing. All that aside, If you do get lightweight body parts that will bolt on, I would be willing to trade for ultralight parts I have made and used succesfully. Currently: carbon fiber/alum short shift kit, carbon fiber front trunk lid brace,forged&sloted alum inside door handles,drilled brake disks,Lexan rear and wing windows, titanium/stainless steel muffler

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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript>  </SCRIPT>Mac <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]huge, yes, but ...

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]July 4 2000, 11:01 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Yes it sounds like a giant (too big?) idea, but I can see how Herzel thinks it can be done. In fact, if the chassis were built, it would really then be not much a bigger deal than just restoring any other X1/9 (yeah, I know that is a big task anyway!)...

It is not like we would have to manufacture engines, trannies, wiring harnesses, light fixtures, instrument clusters, dashes etc. All those are parts that could easily be scavenged out from dead-rusty parts cars. To me it sounds like the only real huge issue is to get the chassis/body itself created. Meaning, if there were a tube-framed-carbon-fiber-X1/9 sitting there in front of you already, it would then be only a matter of building it the rest of the way up from available parts.

Plus, to Jeff, I don't think he meant to dismantle good clean X1/9s to do this - I would be inclined to think that there would readily be enough spare parts floating around from rusted-out cars already that a few of these carbon cars could be built without having to remove any good Xs from the world. Just my idle thoughts... -Mac.



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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript>  </SCRIPT>grady <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Some suggestions.

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]July 4 2000, 11:33 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Stay away from graphite body panels. In order to do it right you will need access to a large oven capable of curing the epoxy while maintaining a vacuum on the mold. For an automobile you are much better off sticking with hand lay-up techniques using S-glass or Kevlar (or both) and using foam core composites. This would result (if done properly) in much cheaper, tougher, and easier to repair panels.

Don't waste your money on 4130 (Chrome-moly steel) for a tubular frame unless you have the entire thing heat treated after fabrication. It basically has the same strength as mild steel until it is heat treated, and is more difficult to weld properly.

It sounds like the resulting car would look like an X but not have much in common with one under the skin. You will not be able to retain all of the original dimesions. Composite panels are thicker than steel panels, especially at mechanical attachment points. All of the flanged parts of the car would be thicker which can affect how the trim fits on.

I really can't see doing this amount of fabrication work and then putting an X1/9 engine inside. Even a really hot kick-ass X engine is no match for some of the more modern alternatives. Same goes for the suspension, transmission, and electrical.

I think a easier solution to the rusting X's might be to identify the panels which rust the most often, and have those replicated. It seems that currently available "plastic" parts are limited to those parts on the car which rarely rust. (Whose hood has rusted away? ...) 

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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript>  </SCRIPT>David Ius <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]The dilemma - longish

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]July 4 2000, 6:51 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]I'm reading everyones thoughts here and can't help but be struck with the inevitable dilemma.

Thing is I love my X to bits but if I was going to spend LOADS of money, I'd fix some of the things that annoyed me? I'd add a little space under the front guards for bigger wheels/tyres, and the dash needs to be more modern with better ventilation. Have I restored or modified? Does everyone want what I want?

We have already identified that in hot climates the dash cracks but the body lasts, in wet climates the panels rust but the interior survives, on rough roads the balljoints fail etc etc etc. How is everyone going to agree on whether adding cup holders is "restoration" or "modification"?

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea and if I won the lottery and had the means I know just how I'd do it but would your vision and mine be the same??????

I think I'd prefer to see us deal with specific items and then offer these "solutions" to everyone to keep their X's the way they want - then we can choose to keep/change/modify to our own tastes/needs.

But 10 out of 10 for vision and intention. Whatever happens, I respect anyone who is this committed to their car!

Cheers

David 

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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript>  </SCRIPT>Julian <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Cup holders?

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]July 5 2000, 1:55 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]I know most X owners are crazy - but cup holders?! Those little items are the curse of the modern car industry.

If it comes to modification - I would say that the best things would be to redesign the wiring loom to simplify it and improve the reliability (Ditch the fuses in favour of circuit breakers and make sure that the "power" circuits are all switched through relays), and modify the suspension mountings to give us fully adjustable suspension geometry.

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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript>  </SCRIPT>Mike <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Now you did it

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]July 5 2000, 8:19 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]SInce my car is in the middle of a restoration, I often had brief thought of converting the fuse panel to the more modern blade type.

But now that you mention it , since I work in the aviation field....Circuit breakers....UUUMMMMM
very intersting

I have not yet sat down with the full schematics of the car but I thought that all Powers circuits , starter, headlights, headlight motors ect where already switched by relays, after all there is a multitude of them throught the car.

But CCT Breakers....uuummm.....Interesting. ( as I look at the hanging fuse box)

Cheers
Mike

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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript>  </SCRIPT>Julian <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Check them out

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]July 5 2000, 11:42 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]I don't know where you could get them from in the US, but Demon Tweeks will happily sell you circuit breakers as a direct replacement for blade fuses. The little blighters are the same size (well marginally deeper) as the original fuses and include a small button on the back of the "fuse" for resetting the circuit. The drawback is that they cost about $10 a piece. They are available in 6, 8, 10, 15, 20 and 25 amp ratings.

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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript>  </SCRIPT>David Ius <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Thought someone may bite!

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]July 5 2000, 4:56 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]I think it proves my point, though.

Maybe we should all get together and assemble a list of "wants" and "needs" for our X's. Then we can look at the solutions already hiding away in people's X's and get busy on the other stuff!

Now, where is that Coke bottle - Oh, I can hear it rolling around behind the passenger's seat

David

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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript>  </SCRIPT>Julian <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Little Spaces

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]July 6 2000, 1:11 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]That little space behind the passenger seat is the the most useful little cavaty I have ever had on a car. My little X is the ONLY car I've ever had where I'm guaranteed NOT to spill the chinese takeaway on the journey home!

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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript>  </SCRIPT>Herzel <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]adjustable suspension ?

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]July 11 2000, 11:58 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]What do you mean by adjustable suspension. Please explain.

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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript>  </SCRIPT>Herzel <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]A place for the project

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]July 11 2000, 12:07 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Since the project generates a bit of attention I would like to have it all under a seperate yet public place. I don't know enough about internet technics. Anybody has suggestions.
Another problem, how do I save all responses in my disk so I don't have to go thru this forum everytime again?

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X1/9 2000 International Project

User1

RETIRED Admin, pm OFF