X1/9 vs Porsche 912E

I prefer Wheeler Dealers because they are an alternative to other shows that focus on typical Mustang, Camaro, GTO, etc, muscle cars which have been "done to death". I find the other shows often feature "over acting", fake conflict, and are more about image than working on cars.
Wheeler Dealers buy cars, fix them up, and then resell to make a profit, so I would be surprised to see them work on an X, as it seems unlikely they could actually make money on one, and if they did it wouldn't be much. Wheeler Dealers is far from perfect but for me is better than the other shows.

To be honest, I enjoyed the episode with the 912E and found myself liking the 912E although way out of my budget.

Brian
 
There was a time when 912's were the most un-desierable "9" and had very depressed market values in the same way as Speeders, 356 and...
Then the speculators and collectors decided to drive their market value ^...

Keep in mind, the market price for any item is based on perception more than content. Marketing is much about creation of perceived value. Business and profits are much about perceived value.


Bernice


To be honest, I enjoyed the episode with the 912E and found myself liking the 912E although way out of my budget.

Brian
 
Realize the 914 has trailing arm rear suspension. Those trailing arms are a poor design and remains a serious problem area on ALL 914's. They also rust from the inside out in places that never sees the light of day. Many 914's toasted to the ground due to the battery being placed above the high pressure injection hoses. As the corrosive battery gooo dripped on the high pressure injection hoses, the hoses would develop a leak spraying HP gasoline on to the hot magnesium power train causing a magnesium fire. Many 914's were toasted this way... including eco-worker decades ago who's wife was driving their then new 914 which burn to the pavement as the fire department folks looked on due to the fire being a magnesium fire.

Keep in mind, these evaluations are based on what has been produced not what the potential that has been designed in that was never allowed to be developed.


Bernice



Not 912, but there's a cool YouTube vid of a 914 vs. X1/9 - it's in Dutch but you can get the gist...

 
Wow, this thread is like walking in to an old west saloon just as all the cowboys have just drawn their six shooters....think I'll slowly back out without making any sudden moves.
 
Having owned both cars (912 and X1/9) I can say they are vastly different in pretty much every aspect. They drive/ride/handle differently. The engineering/materials/build quality are very different. Working on them is a completely different experience. Really no comparison.
Although the question was how do they compare in terms of performance. I owned them many years apart from one another and have never done any performance testing for any of my cars, so I cannot offer a valid response to that. But having owned and worked on countless German vehicles (from every major German maker) and many Italian vehicles (from several Italian makers), I can say there is absolutely no assumption that the German products are superior in engineering, design, and quality. That doesn't mean I don't like the Italian toys, however it is obvious to me why there is such a huge value difference between a 912 and a X1/9.
 
"911"s (not racing variants) weren't even very good cars until they came out with the 993 C4,
Or more so when they came out with the 986 (Boxster) where they put the engine where it should be. This is why, whilst running almost the same engine, the 911 is always tuned with a higher output. Embarrassingly for Porsche, when they did their testing at Nurburgring the Boxster was only 2 seconds slower than the entry level 911 Carrera, which came with almost twice the price tag. Something to be said for putting the engine in middle, just like the little X. The X1/9 was revered for it's handling but always lamented for it's lack of power.
Most comparisons are generally between the X1/9 and the TR7 for obvious reasons, but were usually between the earlier X1/9's, as that was the era (TR7 74 - 81) , and you're comparing a 2ltr engine vs a 1300, and even the later was only a 1500. The 2ltr TR7 would do 9.9s in the 0-60 and the 1300 X is 12.2s only improving to 11.2 in carb form, but still a sedately 12.2 in injection.
But as opposed to the 912E, a fairer comparison would be between the 914 as that has a more similar layout. I can't actually find any direct head to head comparisons due to a couple of issues, production overlap, with the 914 being from 69 to 76 and the X1/9 being 72 to 89, and the other being market, the Porsche being the upper end and the X being budget end. There are many head-2-heads with more like cars such as TR7's, MR2's and even Pontiacs Fiero, and earlier model comparisons to Spitfires, MG's, and again the TR7.
When you look at the stats, the 914 is equally anemic in 0-60 13.3s for the early 1700's, 12.0s for the 1800's, and was really only the 1900 flat 6 carburetored model that did 8.7s with a top speed of 129, vs the 115 for the X1/9 carburetored model.
Based on that, a 1500 X1/9 would hold it's own with all but the flat 6, as well as handling better and having that wonderful Bertone styling. The 914 wasn't exactly a pretty car, or overly good, which is probably reflected in its relatively short lived life of 7 years, especially when you consider the Boxster has already gone past 20 years.

As for the 912E, it was really the poor mans 911, and actually succeeded by the 914. ** (correction. The 912E was a 1 year wonder in 1976 only for the US market when the 914 ceased production, so ironically, the 914 succeeded the 912, only for the 912E to succeed the 914, to then be dropped for Porsche's foray into front engine cars, the 924, 944 and 928 with the 924 becoming the entry level Porsche)
 
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What would be the best criteria for a X1/912 comparison?
Lap times?
If so, in stock form with the stock 70s tires fitted?
Stock with modern tires?
Typical minor mods that most of today‘s owners have fitted to their cars?

To me, the interesting comparison would be how much fun I would have on a curvy canyon road and on a race track with these cars with improved suspension and good tires fitted.
For the record, the 912E was a US-market-only model, intended to bridge the time between the 914 and the 924.
So I haven‘t met any on track. :)
I have diced with a 911 G-Model with 231 hp in completely stock form and street tires. The owner knows the Nürburgring well.
I was able to hang with him. He pulled away on the straights and I cought back up in the twisties.
 
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He pulled away on the straights and I cought back up in the twisties
Reminds me of when I had my first X1/9, a 1980 1500, whilst my friend at the time had a V12 XJS, and same thing, when things were twisty I'd be right up his tail, but he'd pull away in the straights. Then there is another story of a slightly longer trip I was doing on some rather twisty roads through forestry country, and overtook a logging truck on double yellow lines. Some 10 - 15 minutes later I spotted some flashing lights in distance behind me and slowed down.
The officer then indicated for me to pull over, and with a rather bright red face accused me of speeding, to which I replied, "I don't think I was?", to which he go redder, as he hadn't been able to clock me, and replied "Lucky for you I didn't clock you, but I've been trying to catch you for the last 30 miles!!!"
 
What would be the best criteria for a X1/912 comparison?
Lap times?
If so, in stock form with the stock 70s tires fitted?
Stock with modern tires?
Typical minor mods that most of today‘s owners have fitted to their cars?

To me, the interesting comparison would be how much fun I would have on a curvy canyon road and on a race track with these cars with improved suspension and good tires fitted.
For the record, the 912E was a US-market-only model, intended to bridge the time between the 914 and the 924.
So I haven‘t met any in track. :)
I have diced with a 911 G-Model with 231 hp in completely stock form and street tires. The owner knows the Nürburgring well.
I was able to hang with him. He pulled away on the straights and I cought back up in the twisties.


^^^Mike drop^^^
 
Consider how favored moto choices are made. What draws any moto owner to the ride they are involved with and where their points of references came from, aka individual-personal history with moto vehicles.


Bernice
 
Yup, why in the world would anyone back in the day have been drawn to Fiats...we thought with our hearts rather than brain, which I gather is the way most Italians think! Now I like them as hobby cars, easy to work on (pre FI) and fun cars when done with lots of parts support and active forums....again, using the heart not the brain, my 1990 Miata was a much more fun car to drive than any Fiat I had ever owned but I didn't want to make Miatas my hobby cars, it was my DD and the only sports car my wife would ride in.
 
I didn't want to make Miatas my hobby cars, it was my DD and the only sports car my wife would ride in.
Understandable for the wife as the X1/9 is not the most elegant car for a woman to get in and out of. My first realisation of how low to the ground you are in an X1/9 was when sitting in the drivers seat and opening the drivers door, then putting my hand down and touching the tarmac.
 
Regarding Wheeler Dealers, I recently re-discovered this show. I used to love it and watch it regularly but felt it went downhill when they moved to the US and began doing high dollar rebuilds rather than small budget flips. I think this was part of the reason Ed left the show. But I started watching it again and I've warmed up to Ant (the new mechanic) and enjoyed the last few episodes.

But I still like the very early episodes because it reflects my retirement dream of small budget flips. When (if??) I retire, I would like to buy cars that need certain repairs and then flip them for small money. Make a couple hundred or even break even on each flip -- just enough to support the hobby.

I'm still waiting for them to do an X1/9.
 
WD was mostly OK back in the ED China days, independently produced in the UK with a tiny crew. WD did some interesting motos back then like the Citroen H van, 2CV, Alfasud and.... It might have been remotely possible for WD to do an exxe back then they were in the UK with ED. Today WD has Velocity channel shill specifically produced to generate profit for Velocity channel. There is NO possible way WD under Mike & Velocity channel will ever do an exxe. What will be done is a continuation of the Moto folks fantasy rides like Porsche and similar Motos that play to Moto folks learned bias and fantasies. As with the vast majority of mass media programming it is much about ratings, ratings results in revenue and profit for their investors-banker-stock holders. This fact is why they choose the Motos they do. It is also very possible why ED China parted company with WD when they moved to Velocity channel to become another one of their generic Moto programs. Media stuff like this is much about entertainment and only some what more. Think Top Gear... and how good the Brits are at doing Theater.


Bernice

Regarding Wheeler Dealers, I recently re-discovered this show. I used to love it and watch it regularly but felt it went downhill when they moved to the US and began doing high dollar rebuilds rather than small budget flips. I think this was part of the reason Ed left the show. But I started watching it again and I've warmed up to Ant (the new mechanic) and enjoyed the last few episodes.

But I still like the very early episodes because it reflects my retirement dream of small budget flips. When (if??) I retire, I would like to buy cars that need certain repairs and then flip them for small money. Make a couple hundred or even break even on each flip -- just enough to support the hobby.

I'm still waiting for them to do an X1/9.
 
WD was mostly OK back in the ED China days, independently produced in the UK with a tiny crew. WD did some interesting motos back then like the Citroen H van, 2CV, Alfasud and.... It might have been remotely possible for WD to do an exxe back then they were in the UK with ED. Today WD has Velocity channel shill specifically produced to generate profit for Velocity channel. There is NO possible way WD under Mike & Velocity channel will ever do an exxe. What will be done is a continuation of the Moto folks fantasy rides like Porsche and similar Motos that play to Moto folks learned bias and fantasies. As with the vast majority of mass media programming it is much about ratings, ratings results in revenue and profit for their investors-banker-stock holders. This fact is why they choose the Motos they do. It is also very possible why ED China parted company with WD when they moved to Velocity channel to become another one of their generic Moto programs. Media stuff like this is much about entertainment and only some what more. Think Top Gear... and how good the Brits are at doing Theater.


Bernice
So profit is bad? Never mind, sounds too much like political commentary that I don't want to be part of...
 
Discussion should include ALL possible factors with no limits on where all the potential influences, intentions and human factors might be. It is much about understanding the greater whole-bigger picture.

-Myopia is not a good thing. Putting stuff into neat little boxes that are never allowed to connect is NOT good.


Bernice


So profit is bad? Never mind, sounds too much like political commentary that I don't want to be part of...
 
Profit is necessary. My source of whining primarily has to do with the American taste in car shows. When WD was a UK low budget show, it was really good because it showed the common person how to do basic repairs on various cars. Then they came to America and in our typical fashion, we super sized it and it turned into full restorations and fabrication work.

Most car shows on TV are nothing more than infomercials so I'll give WD credit for not sinking to that level.
 
I think the audience out grew the premise of the original WD show which was; Flip a classic for cheap. In the early show they bought cheap classics, often non runners and got them back on the road and sold for hopefully a small profit. I think as the show took off, lack of decent cars in the UK, rust, MOTs, pushed them to importing more finished cars and massaging a little more profit thru customization etc. California was a good market for this with well preserved cars, and a favorable exchange rate. Establishing California as base for the show is natural evolution of this business model, savings in importation cost etc. As far as them doing a show on the X 19, I don't see why they wouldn't, they have done plenty of less popular cars, ie Alfa 164, I think there is a good chance if the show continues we will see an X 19, Lancia Scorpion or Beta , and or a TR7. It appears to me since profit is not a objective ( have you noticed the prices they are paying for cars?) they are making the selection on more random criteria, personal tastes, vision, etc, I don't get the impression that Velocity cares much about the selection except that it is diverse. One thing for sure the show now has a lot of behind the scenes work done that is never being shown, with a huge behind the scenes production.
 
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