X1/9 vs Porsche 912E

Rupunzell said:
Discussion should include ALL possible factors with no limits on where all the potential influences, intentions and human factors might be. It is much about understanding the greater whole-bigger picture.

-Myopia is not a good thing. Putting stuff into neat little boxes that are never allowed to connect is NOT good.


Bernice
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Lets talk about cars, especially Fiats, OK?
 
My Fiats have always been giant-slayers. For the same displacement, and half the amount of money, taking on cars with 'pedigree'. Nothing funnier than watching a Porsche owner or Corvette owner that just lost fastest time of day at the autocross to a street legal X1/9 try to explain it away. Of course, this was in Anchorage, where there wasn't a very deep competition pool to swim in.

Fiat X1/9s and Mazda RX7's always seem like the skinny kid in a kung-fu movie that ends up whooping the competition, because his style is more effective.
 
Mechanogeek said:
My Fiats have always been giant-slayers. For the same displacement, and half the amount of money, taking on cars with 'pedigree'. Nothing funnier than watching a Porsche owner or Corvette owner that just lost fastest time of day at the autocross to a street legal X1/9 try to explain it away. Of course, this was in Anchorage, where there wasn't a very deep competition pool to swim in.

Fiat X1/9s and Mazda RX7's always seem like the skinny kid in a kung-fu movie that ends up whooping the competition, because his style is more effective.
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I've always liked owning "underdog" vehicles. If someone beats you, well of course, they have the better vehicle. If you beat them however...
 
Kevin Channer said:
I think the audience out grew the premise of the original WD show which was; Flip a classic for cheap. In the early show they bought cheap classics, often non runners and got them back on the road and sold for hopefully a small profit. I think as the show took off, lack of decent cars in the UK, rust, MOTs, pushed them to importing more finished cars and massaging a little more profit thru customization etc. California was a good market for this with well preserved cars, and a favorable exchange rate. Establishing California as base for the show is natural evolution of this business model, savings in importation cost etc. As far as them doing a show on the X 19, I don't see why they wouldn't, they have done plenty of less popular cars, ie Alfa 164, I think there is a good chance if the show continues we will see an X 19, Lancia Scorpion or Beta , and or a TR7. It appears to me since profit is not a objective ( have you noticed the prices they are paying for cars?) they are making the selection on more random criteria, personal tastes, vision, etc, I don't get the impression that Velocity cares much about the selection except that it is diverse. One thing for sure the show now has a lot of behind the scenes work done that is never being shown, with a huge behind the scenes production.
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Mike Brewer is VERY active on social media and does reply to comments and questions. In a response to my suggestion that he should do some classic FIATs like a 124 Spider and X1/9, he has stated "We have the cars you are looking for," and has stated in an interview filmed during 2018 SEMA that they acquired an early '70s 124 Spider for the show. In another interview he stated that Discovery/Velocity/Motor Trend has ordered an additional 27 shows and that worldwide Wheeler Dealers is the most watched auto hobbyist show in the world. There are Italian and French versions---with native hosts, not just Mike/Edd/Ant with dubbing or subtitles.
 
There is always YouTube but I admit, the only show there I watch is Project Binky which is so far removed from my skills that they might as well be building a space shuttle but it is a fascinating series.

I like reading restoration threads here and on MIRA, can't get more down to earth on Fiat work than guys who actually do it themselves and love the cars.

And boy have we drifted off topic on this one but in the Discussion arena I think that's OK?
 
Sorry about arriving late to this party. All this talk about German engineering superiority, cheap market Fiat X1/9's... None of this means diddly squat once collectibility starts to take hold. I don't have a clue how many registered X1/9's are still on the roads but after moving in X1/9 circles as of late I sense the attrition must be appalling. Desirability and SUPPLY drive market value. I sold my Pantera recently which I purchased for a song in 1992. My car friends at the time laughed at me for buying such a ridiculous piece of crap that no serious collector of automobiles would ever admit owning. Perceptions have changed. They regularly trade for $100k now. Isn't it time we started thinking of the Fiat X1/9 as the masterpiece of styling, handling,and fuel efficiency that it truly is?
 
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Cratecruncher said:
Sorry about arriving late to this party. All this talk about German engineering superiority, cheap market Fiat X1/9's... None of this means diddly squat once collectibility starts to take hold. I don't have a clue how many registered X1/9's are still on the roads but after moving in X1/9 circles as of late I sense the attrition must be appalling. Desirability and SUPPLY drive market value. I sold my Pantera recently which I purchased for a song in 1992. My car friends at the time laughed at me for buying such a ridiculous piece of crap that no serious collector of automobiles would ever admit owning. Perceptions have changed. They regularly trade for $100k now. Isn't it time we started thinking of the Fiat X1/9 as the masterpiece of styling and package design that it truly is?
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Yes but don’t give those collectors any ideas. I like driving my cars...
 
Cratecruncher said:
Sorry about arriving late to this party. All this talk about German engineering superiority, cheap market Fiat X1/9's... None of this means diddly squat once collectibility starts to take hold. I don't have a clue how many registered X1/9's are still on the roads but after moving in X1/9 circles as of late I sense the attrition must be appalling. Desirability and SUPPLY drive market value. I sold my Pantera recently which I purchased for a song in 1992. My car friends at the time laughed at me for buying such a ridiculous piece of crap that no serious collector of automobiles would ever admit owning. Perceptions have changed. They regularly trade for $100k now. Isn't it time we started thinking of the Fiat X1/9 as the masterpiece of styling and package design that it truly is?
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The main difference I see is production numbers.

~7500 Pantera's built.
~160,000 X1/9s built for the US alone.

Even if we assume 80% of X1/9s have long since rusted into oblivion (which I think is really high), that still leaves ~32,000 cars in existence. A car's value increases when it is desirable and scarce. I'm not sure the X1/9 will ever be scarce enough to warrant high 5 figure price tags.
 
kmead said:
Yes but don’t give those collectors any ideas. I like driving my cars...
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Well, this is the main reason I sold the other car. I was scared to drive or park it. But the X1/9 has a long way to go before that becomes an issue for most people. In fact, the way accident insurance works you are far better off with an X1/9 worth $15k than one worth $5k. Most minor "fender benders" now cost about $5 to $7k to fix including a replacement rental. If your vehicle is worth only $5k the insurance company will cut a check for $5k and take your little pride and joy rather than even bothering to fix it!
 
aarpcard said:
The main difference I see is production numbers.

~7500 Pantera's built.
~160,000 X1/9s built for the US alone.

Even if we assume 80% of X1/9s have long since rusted into oblivion (which I think is really high), that still leaves ~32,000 cars in existence. A car's value increases when it is desirable and scarce. I'm not sure the X1/9 will ever be scarce enough to warrant high 5 figure price tags.
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Yes, this is the all important question! How many are there left? I started a search for a car about a year ago and figured I'd find something local in 30 days. That quickly expanded to "Texas Area". Heck there are over 28 Million (MILLION!) people in Texas and I only found 3 cars for sale and they were so badly rusted they would be marginal for even parts cars. I finally discovered one in Iowa 1000 miles away and bought it sight unseen. It is MUCH easier to buy a nice Pantera than an X1/9!

I used to have a marketing job where I had access to registration data through a company called R L Polk. If anyone here has access to that database it would be very enlightening to know how many of these cars are still registered. But I doubt there are more than 5,000 in the US. Add to that another 10,000 sitting under tarps and in garages half restored and you have 15,000 cars that could find a new owner. Of course, this is just a wild guess on my part.

The 5 figure price tag is already being hit regularly on BAT (Bring A Trailer)https://bringatrailer.com/fiat/x19/. Based on those comps alone: fair = 5k, good = $9k, amazing = $14k. It is not inconceivable that our cars might be regularly trading hands in the not-far-distant future for $10k, $15k, and $25k respectively. If you read the comment sections in some of those auctions people regularly mention how amazingly cheap the prices of X1/9's are. I think the market is ready to move up on the X. If the economy holds together...
 
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I'm going out on a limb here and assume almost all of us here are interested in Xs as a source of enjoyment which can include just driving one with needed maintenance help to folks like me who just love resurrecting them or modifying them. One should always keep an eye on value of these cars so you don't get upside down on money spent on them but otherwise I don't think many if any of us buy them for investment purposes....apparently you can do this with any German car.

Then again, if you have a hobby you love and you can actually make money at it, more power to you, as you offset me who barely breaks even on Fiats.
 
Cratecruncher said:
Isn't it time we started thinking of the Fiat X1/9 as the masterpiece of styling, handling,and fuel efficiency that it truly is?
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My thinking exactly. I think the X1/9 is historically more significant than it's given credit for. It was the first mid-engined sports cars designed for the masses, even though only just over 165,000 were manufactured world wide over the course of 17 years, and from 1982 - 89, only 19,500 were manufactured under the Bertone Label. The last Gran Finale models were numbered 164xxx and 43 built with a 166000.
But not only was it innovative, its design came from Bertone, one of the leading style houses, and when Fiat lost interest in 1982, Bertone continued it under its own label.
But as a cheap sports car known for rust and abuse, many have died and been put to rest, and original examples are slowly disappearing. Whilst there may not be the recognition in the States and down under, the X1/9's value is starting to be appreciated in Europe. I personally am a purist, and have kept my X1/9 totally original as I see it as a classic. It will never be concours, far from it, as I want to drive it and not fret about someone breathing on it, or a stone chip or a Car Park dent.
 
aarpcard said:
A car's value increases when it is desirable and scarce.
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There were only 165,000 produced worldwide, not just the States, and only 19,500 across the globe from 1982 - 89 under the Bertone label. Even if 32,000 remain world wide, you need to consider how many of those 32,000 are still, or even close to original. You need look no further than the members of this forum and I'd put a good 50% of X1/9's being project cars with no end of conversions and body reconstructions, which I would attribute to the great chassis design, cheap initial outlay, and the usually shot condition of many basic components like seats, trim and even engine and gearbox.
 
Cratecruncher said:
$10k, $15k, and $25k respectively.
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They already are in Europe and the UK. Good examples are hitting the $20K mark. Some years ago I brought a 1987 GTV6 as I loved the styling of the car, but whilst rare, they were cheap, NZ$8,000 (about US$5,500) . Mine was a lovely original one with 60,000km on the clock, which unfortunately through my neglect is a project car, but good examples now are selling upwards of $40,000 for a good original example.
 
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