B16a progress (or lack of)

autox19

autox19

True Classic
So my GF wanted to go to New Orleans for a friends wedding (she used to live there) She said it wouldnt cost much. Then she added taking our kids, Then, then, then, then.....

So I have the engine out of my car, my old fiat performance parts sold, still cleaning up the engine bay getting ready for the engine and trans that I cant get now because of (albiet a good one) a New Orleans Trip. ARRRGGHH.

Hitting craigslist I found a few possibilities but was beat to it. My latest quest is for am engine/trans, even not running, so at least I can get all the mock ups done and feel like I am going forward. Do you think I could find one? NOOOOOOO I am thinking this is the fiat gods telling me to retreat and go back to the 1500.

Frustrated and it is getting warmer out

Odie
 
skip the b16a then and...

get a USDM b18c1. Virtually same motor, more cheaper, more available since they were in US Integras:
1994-2001 Acura Integra GS-R (DC2)
170 hp, more torque than b16, redline *8k vs 8,200 for b16a
I still kinda regret not going for the b18c type R. Maybe next year. 200 hp, 8900 rpms!!!:headbang:
 
Us engine.

I have been told this, but I cannot find anything out there. I must be searching wrong as you are about the 10th person who told me to go that route.

odie
 
Why not...

Why not get a Toyota 20 valve 4AGE? These are plentiful at reasonable prices, make as much power as the Honda B16, turn 8000+ rpm and are an easier installation than the B16.

If I was going to do an engine swap, other than a K20, it would be one of these. They are VERY sweet motors.
 
Steve Hoelscher said:
Why not get a Toyota 20 valve 4AGE? These are plentiful at reasonable prices, make as much power as the Honda B16, turn 8000+ rpm and are an easier installation than the B16.

If I was going to do an engine swap, other than a K20, it would be one of these. They are VERY sweet motors.
Click to expand...

Can you go into details as to why the 4AGE is easier than the Honda engine to swap?

I thought I read once that some of the engine mounts (or their locations) were similar to the FIAT stuff, but I do not recall where (or exactly what) it was I read.
 
I think the biggest advantage of the Toyo motor is...

that the engine remains on the passenger's side which helps to keep the weight balance of the X more even. The B16a is not hard to install per se...no major cutting of sheet metal, it actually fits quite nicely and maintenance (except for timing belt, water pump) is excellent. However, swapping a motor into any car is a lot of work irregardless. Most parts for the B16/18 are also relatively easy to find at Honda/Acura dealers and the aftermarket support is second to none (import wise). Toyo engines are available from JDM engine importers for probably just a bit less than a base b16a. Either motor is a great choice IMHO. I'd say b16 installs are probably more documented in the X (including my own) for what that's worth.
 
i just happen to have a b18 and trans sitting out back. just swapped it out of a 90 integra , and dropped in a b20. but im a long ways away. and both the engine and trans are thrashed.
 
Ooooo, me too!

I too would be interested in the benefits of the 4age over the B series installation. So far I have been leaning towards B series since it's the SBC of 4 cylinder motors and well documented for installing in the X. However, if you have some great info on how the toyo is better/easier/just fits better I would be very interested. Thanks Steve.
 
m4ff3w said:
Can you go into details as to why the 4AGE is easier than the Honda engine to swap?
Click to expand...

Sure.

Yes, the 4AGE maintains the same orientation with the engine on driver's right and transmission on driver's let. But more importantly, its roughtly the same dimentions as the 1500 SOHC motor and the front and rear motor mounts are positioned so they slip right under the chassis rails where the OE cross member would normally reside. The right and left mounts hang over the inner wheel arches, the right side right about where the OE mount is. In other words, the mounts are place and configured so that matching up with the X chassis quite nicely.

The Mk1 MR2 is a mid engined car that uses a cable shifter. So the shifter is a super easy install, as is the clutch hydraulics which exit the center tunnel right about where the slave cylinder is on the C50 transmission.

Overall, the packaging, layout and acilaries are all very similar to the X. I think it is the easiest engine swap candidate out there. Then, figure the power it makes and the easy availability of engines and transmissions and you have an ideal package.
 
back to the drawing board...

ok, now you really have me thinking. (and searching) havent found much with the MR2, are the front drivers have a cable tranny like the mr2?

odie
 
The cable mounting on the tranny is definitely something to investigate more closely on the trannys from FWD applications such as the JDM 20Vs. I'm no expert on MK1 MR2s but from what I've read the FWD transmissions shifters are setup backwards from the C series transmissions used in MR2s. I believe the MR2 guys run into this quite a bit when installing the 20Vs. I know there is a fix, but not sure what it is. Steve, do you know anything about this? Alternatively you can just install an MR2 drivetrain and throw silly money at it! Formula Atlantic internals anyone?

Steve, thanks for your insight on how well the 4age fits. Now I am re-thinking my evil honda B-series plans.
 
Sales Opportunity

Steve,

Judging by the amount of engine swap talk that goes on here at Xweb, I'd say that there is a market for a kit. As you posted there seems to be a lot of natural advantages to using the 4AGE engine & trans.

I would say the ideal kit would include any pieces that require fabbing, and leaving out anything that can be readily sourced. I would say the ideal design would be one that (a) does not require welding skills and (b) does not do anything to the car that would prevent the reinstallation of the stock powerpack.

Have you (maybe in conjunction with MaddMatt) thought about offering a kit?

Just out of curiosity, which 4AGE and trans combo would produce the level of power needed to "properly" power an X without overmatching the rest of the car in stock condition?
 
toyota 6 speed info

For those interested I did a little research on the 20V tranny converted to mid-engine use issue. Here's a link I got from the MR2 owner's club forum that seems to cover the necessary mods:

http://www.marcmedina.com/6speed.html

No too bad of a mod to do with basic hand tools with the exception of the aluminum welding on the case.
 
4AGE issues

The transmission linkage issue has two simple fixes. One, you can just buy an MR2 transmission with the linkage on the front. Two, you can easily convert the rear linkage FWD unit by drilling one hole and plugging the other. This conversion has been done by a number of MR2 owners and is well documented on the MR2 owners club forum.

You can even use the Toyota C series 6 speed transmission! This box has a very nice ratio set. All of the Toyota C series transmissions use the same basic shifter and can be converted to the front mounted (mid-engined) shifter setup.

The shifter and hydraulics are a snap to do.

The C series transmissions are plenty strong to handle a high output 4AGE. My MR2 makes 170 hp at the wheels and has no transmission issues. Also, LSDs are readily available.

I am sure Matt could do a kit if there was demand. I don't have the time myself but could assist Matt if he decided to do the project.
 
Another great advantage of the 4ag....

is cost - the Honda K20's go for around $6k; the 'silvertop' 20v 4ag with 5spd *160hp can be had for around 10% of that. The 'blacktop' with 6spd for a grand more. I got a set of MR2 motor mounts off the MR2OC (owner's club) website for $100. There's a set of MR2 shifter cables and shifter on ebay right now for maybe $20. I've done engine re-builds/installs on both the MR2 and the X, and this swap is what I'm pulling parts together for now, and I tell you, it's going to be sweet!
 
avusblue98 said:
is cost - the Honda K20's go for around $6k
Click to expand...
Maybe for a JDM with 212-225 hp. You could start much cheaper ($1000+) with a USDM with about 160-200 hp.
Their are so many choices in the K family and most are interchangable and all mount the same. The trannies and gears also are interchangeable. You don't want 250 hp at 8,000 rpm? Go with a Frank motor such as a K24 block and K20 head and have a lower rpm and super torquey.
By the way, how much does the Fiat motor/tranny weigh?
 
Engine and tranny weights:

Honda D: 260-285
B: *330-345
K: 405
4AGE: 342
X1/9: *310
*thanks!
 
Last edited:
From the last time I had my 1500 apart 310 lbs including all ancilliaries with the 5sp making up about 90 lbs of that. This may be of by +/- 10 lbs and is net of fluids. I added up my individual weights that I marked down:wacko:
 
Honda B weights...

B16a approx 247 lbs
B18c approx 259 lbs

Typical LSD tranny for above (Hydraulic) 85 pounds

Thus 332 pounds for the B16a engine tranny. I had my X weighed after the swap and it weighed in at 2035 with top and half full fuel tank. I've managed to diet it down to 2005. With 170 hp, this car really goes ... 0-60 in about 5.5 secs according to G-Tech.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top