Electronic Ignition Conversion Question

Great info....

Sandy, thanks for the explanation, I always learn so much from the collective on this forum. All information is good. When I met with Butch today, he was already talking putting the XR3000 in the spare tire well, not sure how much airflow we can get back there, but it will not be anywhere hear as hot as the engine bay. Attached is a picture of the new coil that was purchased with the XR3000, they said this one was a good match for the unit. Hopefully, we'll know all about it in another week or so. Also, it looks like the Crane pickup is optical, so that should be better than mechanical. Also, I've got a brand new rotor button that came from MWB, so that should be up to the task. I also plan on always having a spare in the glove box. As we get closer there will be pots of pics and the blog will be updated. Really looking forward to hearing the Lotus exhaust running from this engine. Thanks again to everyone for their help and advice, it is appreciated. Cheers....


 
Sandy....

As far as I know the unit that goes in the dizzy that I'm calling the pickup (maybe incorrectly) attaches to the mechanical advance/retard plate in the bottom of the dizzy. At least I think that;s whats going on. This is all new to me and learning every day a little more about it all. Once the unit is installed, I'll get pics with the cap off so we can all see how it works. Thanks again.
 
Its done!!!

Well, Butch got it all setup this afternoon. What say you??? Tomorrow night will be the engine install, now that this is out of the way.





 
I say...

...that looks pretty good to me.

I prefer the LED head to be closer to the screw for stiffness reasons, but that is not always possible, so well done!

Did you position the "chopper" wheel to coincide with the rotor just reaching a terminal in the cap? To make that job easier use an old cap with the top cut off so you can visualise all the moving parts.

Well done Will. And Butch.

Cheers,

Rob

p.s. all 3 Xs in my signature were fitted with Allison/Crane systems.
 
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Sandy... I don't go out anymore at all these days...

HA!

When I said Pertronics, I meant it in a "generic" sense like Kleenex is to tissues.

I wasn't really considering magnetic over luminous activation... I was just trying to recommend something other than points.

BUT... without reading through all that you wrote or knowing all that is entailed in HIS engine or HIS purpose... What say you on the removal of the vacuum actuator?

My thoughts are if he is not going to multiple carbs and using it for the street... he should reinstall it and tune around it as well.

Lastly Sandy... as I said I don't get out much anymore nor do I plan to for many reasons... My latest ride is a 2003 Pilot and I even let the dealer change the oil. Next is my '79 Fiat, a '69 Corvette and finally a '23 T-Bucket with a '53 Olds engine. I've always said if one stops learning they are dead... and I would haveta say I'm probably on the Critical Condition list in this respect! HA!

Thanks for your input... its great to have your perspective and expertise here!
 
BUT... without reading through all that you wrote or knowing all that is entailed in HIS engine or HIS purpose... What say you on the removal of the vacuum actuator?

My thoughts are if he is not going to multiple carbs and using it for the street... he should reinstall it and tune around it as well.

All's good Papa Tony, I was never good at trying to be funny even my old dad jokes get massive groans.

Time in the bell bottoms drilled into my skull that there is so much RF interference going on around us that as SteveC informed us Army chose optical, avoid RF. Anything you can do to get a nice solid reference signal and then amplify from there is prefereable to filtering/conditioning.

Hard for me to answer your question on the vaccum module, Won't that depend on the type of vacuum capsule you have. An 'advance' type has no vacuum at idle, this is the type where the vacuum tap is on the carburetor. The vacuum tap on the carb will have no vacuum until the throttle is opened (isn't this called 'ported' vacuum?). A 'retard' type has vacuum all the time, this type will conect directly to the intake manifold. I'm a noob WRT carbs so useless to answer the question definitively. This dizzy looks like it has two types of advance; vacuum and mechanical. Willy only disabled one system which from the skim read of the Crane PDF I found said remove the vacuum advance mechanism and block the vacuum ports. The Crane box would in all probability have advance curves built into it, as to if it is enough to compensate for WOT with dual carb's on low RPM I don't have enough data to answer that. This unit has no MAP sensor so can't see inlet vaccum. But for you I am happy to go and ask the Dyno tuning guy I use if you need an answer for one of your applications. I humbly submit that in the mid 80's when I saw results of a rough Frankenstein EFI hack I was involved with, adapting a 1835cc VW carb motor to a 1800 EFI system off a GM 'J' platform motor. A seminal moment that blew me away as to how much better it was over the expensive/fiddly IDF carbs we were used to running. So a carb guy I am not, from the little I remember if the carbs are mechanical or vacuum and how the secondaries on the carb is brought in has a lot to do with it. But I see the reasoning in the curiosity of your question.

If Willy has a vac carb maybe replacing it with a mechanical secondary carb is going to address a flat spot, things like that for me are a little easier as with programmable EFI I just plug in a laptop and change a few numbers after looking at some data sets. I find carbs are harder and changing software maps easy peasy, so sue me I am lazy. "Cheating" with split injector pulses is a pretty cool weapon to have in your kit bag and has saved my bacon in these low port velocity scenarios. From the back locker of the brain here's how to check for the type you have, you will need a vacuum pump, a helper and a timing light. Hook the vacuum pump to the advance unit, then fingers clear start the engine and aim the timing light at the timing marks. Now have your helper work the vacuum pump. With an engine that turns clockwise, don't laugh some Euro stuff spins backwards. If the timing mark moves counterclockwise with vacuum, then it's an advance type which needs to be connected to ported vacuum. If the mark moves clockwise, it's a retard type and needs to be connected to manifold vacuum. I don't even know what kind of Vac pots are on the Fiat dizzy's. But to add weight to your point I run a Bosch Motronic in one car and when the diaphragm went in the Vac capsule it was a dog off idle until it built some speed. Replaced it and it was 'eager' off idle again.

Rob has already commented on the bracket that Butch installed and perhaps the reason I have reservations with 'one size fit all kits' like the Crane ignitions (and I do like them performance-wise) is that the mounting brackets are well...flimsy. There is the potential for harmonic vibration, and if the optical sensor oscillates enough on the end of that bracket it can strike the spinning rotor and wipe the rotor/IR LED out, much sadness all round. The use of loctite on all securing fasteners, and the addition of an additional tailored 'L' bracket to stabilize that optical trigger is all I can offer. After that... I can't see why it won't be dead reliable to 9000+ rpms.

The #1 problem is the pickup needs to be properly 'phased'. Not difficult, just a little tedious. 'Phasing' means that the rotor points to the contact in the cap at the same time that the shutter wheel slit is centered in the pickup. The pickup has to be slid on the mounting bracket to set this and it might take a few goes to get it right. Without this step the ignition timing will be impossible to set properly. I like Rob's idea of cutting an old cap to set the phasing, the old Beetle dizzy had a kewl ( but gimmiky ) see through ditributor cap available and thats what our bunch used to check this step when we were 'mucking around' you could use a timing light to look at the rotor while it operated and check to see if it was phased correctly. I wonder if that cap fits the Fiat dizzy, its still a 4 cyl so for low speed tests it might just work. Odd parts cross matches occur perhaps . . . . . if it was a Bosch unit. Wait a second. :confuse2: Since the XR3000 has the optical sensor in this instance if you have one of the clear distributor caps won't it screw things up when you pull the trigger on the timing light?

This is all just conjecture but messing with the static advance at X degrees (as per spec) might be a bit flat off idle he might find it actually runs faster around XYZ degrees but could get a hesitation into that engines power curve. Maybey sacrifice a slightly rough idle for smooth, quick acceleration, there's so many variables with an old dissy. At least lubricate and move the mechaical advance mechanisim by hand before refitting. If the advance doesn't change with rpm then the mechanical advance is stuck. If it is just 'slow' re fitt with small lighter weight dizzy springs if available. That may create a dizzy with a good mechanical advance curve and no vac advance troubles. I haven't seen a distributor dynograph machine in a very long time , this sort of finite tuning is a dying skill that the newer generation of computer Plug in Tech mechanics used to repair by replacement will have a vacuous look on their faces if you dare ask.

One thing is for sure Willy has done such a admirable job on his Blog that others who follow will find things eassier. There are some really knowledgeable NA / carb aficionados on this board that understand the intricacies for each carb. My old Webber books are in the bottom of a archive box with plastic boxes of jets etc, my dusty knowledge is probably there too. Seeing Rob has fessed up and made us aware that he has done this three times I would offer that he is better positioned to judge. The question I think you are asking is are the gizmos in the 'black box' of the Crane effective in emulating the behavior of a dizzy vaccum module. Perhaps point the query at Rob. I would lean to the affirmative position but I have never had a Crane 3000 in my hands, that it has no MAP sensor is a weakness but it is not a terminal weakness. Those that own one are better placed to answer that, but the answer needs to come with what carb / dizzy did they use etc.

One thing we can be can be sure of is that Willy is better off without the points/condenser and there my dear friend we sing from the same sheet music. The throaty sound of a pair of carbs behind your head is darn cool, especially when the Lampredi SOHC engine is screaming at 9,000 RPM - Musica per l'anima
 
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You guys blow me away....

The collective knowledge on here is amazing. I feel like a total idiot when I read some of these responses and realize I know sweet diddly about cars/engines and here I thought I was a car guy! Anyway, as for the following comment.....

Rob has already commented on the bracket that Butch installed and perhaps the reason I have reservations with 'one size fit all kits' like the Crane ignitions (and I do like them performance-wise) is that the mounting brackets are well...flimsy. There is the potential for harmonic vibration, and if the optical sensor oscillates enough on the end of that bracket it can strike the spinning rotor and wipe the rotor/IR LED out, much sadness all round. The use of loctite on all securing fasteners, and the addition of an additional tailored 'L' bracket to stabilize that optical trigger is all I can offer. After that... I can't see why it won't be dead reliable to 9000+ rpms.

The pickup in the dizzy is also mounted to the bottom plate, as that is how the mechanical advance works. As the plate (disc) in the bottom of the dizzy spins, it moves outward with centrifugal force, which advances/retards the system. I may have said that all wrong, but hopefully, you get the idea. Butch is satisfied that the pickup will work and stay in place. Even though it might look a little flimsy, it really isn't. The small bracket has a slot in it so the bracket and pickup can move inside the dizzy. We'll know more in a few days when we breath life into the beast for the first time. Be assured there will be more updates coming. Wish I could go to his shop and get it all done today, but alas Butch has to earn a living in between my side job. As always, many thanks to all. I really hope that one day I can contribute even a small portion of what has been shared with me. Cheers....
 
Don't feel like an idiot Willy, the fact is...

just looking at the choice we've made in sporty cars... we're ALL idiots!

HA!
 
That made me….

actually laugh out loud…. My wife wonders the same thing. For the money that will be invested in the X, I could have bought a really nice Miata that was only a few years old. But its not an X1/9!!!!
 
Don't feel that way Willy,

I've been fooling around with this stuff for decades and saw a massive technological change that see's me floundering with CANBUS system codes. Something that is a real challenge I have been chided for. The protocols have become so propriety that we have seen VW get away with lying about their emissions. That ALL auto makers hide behind the Digital Millennium Copyright Act is a shield and what I learned of the 500 will mostly stay offline. If we think its ONLY VW then a bit naive methinks.

That EA 189 VW engine code is still encrypted but the smart West Virginian engineers could see the effects of what it is doing , all because VW wanted to save $355 per engine unit on its own AddBlue tech. It has taken a year since the first rumors surfaced in May last year but it potentially will cost them tens of Billions. So far infotainment integration into automotive systems is an issue in the USA. Keeping them out of the car control network is the new front line, no one knows whats in the 100 million lines of code most cars have.

Butch is satisfied that the pickup will work and stay in place. Even though it might look a little flimsy, it really isn't.

If you say that optical pickup is solid then okay, just visualise the curved metal tube street lamps seen on the pavement, they look solid but when a big storm comes along and the wind is strong enough they create a harmonic and start to shake at the end where the lamp is. From what I can see is the bracket only held on by that one machine screw or is there one under the optical pickup? I think that is what Rob was eluding to.

As Papa Tony corrrectly pointed out you never stop learning. Meanwhile Downunder the V8's are at Bathurst, day before yesterday a young but talented racer learnt what happens when you 'just' clip the wall at the top of the mountain. Mount Panorama Bites!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GXRy5zhefA

BTW the driver is fine except for a broke L Leg and is up and watching TV, tweeting, excellent safety systems and one tough guy (last years race winner).

Big race is today Rain this afternoon - again, wet/cold :sad: Worth streaming this 161 lap endurance race, if you can.

I really hope that one day I can contribute even a small portion of what has been shared with me. Cheers....

This X 1/9 is such a small niche car and sharing what we know is to be encouraged. In that keep up the exemplary work Willy, your going to love your sweet ride. First start is always a nail biter, search for the Post SteveC did on start and run in procedure and before you light it off, it's important, prime prime prime that oil system. For my :2c: I always lightly pack the oil pump gears with petroleum jelly / Vasoline, never failed me in 30 years.

My Best

Sandy
 
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