Strut info needed

rx1900 said:
Obliviously having faced the same problem of available inserts to fit the stock X housings, Mark Plaia, in conjunction with Chris Obert, designed, and built - from scratch - new housings that would accept VW Rabbit Tokicos or Koni's, and came with threaded seats to accept standard 2 1/2" racing springs. Now I can tell you that designing and having built anything from scratch in very small quantities is a very expensive proposition and is invariably reflected in the price. They are a thing of beauty, but from what I can gather, none of these are currently available for sale and a pre-order of minimum 10 complete sets is required before another batch will be made. Strangely enough, the listing on Obert's website says that these are designed to accept VW Rabbit REAR inserts, not front. I think this is a typo - I dont think Rabbits even used a rear insert. Now none of the above is meant to be a knock against this excellent product. If Mark or Chris is reading this and take it that way, then I apologize. But if a product is not currently available, then at least I think exploring other options is in order. Okay guys ?
Doug
Click to expand...

OK, I am reading... And I am not insulted.
Yes, we did strut housing to accepts VW Rabbit rear strut inserts. It's not a typo.
These VW inserts can be purchased for just about any performance level, from beater POS to full on two way adjustable Koni racing.
I run the Konis in my race car, and my (ultimate) street car will run on Tokiko 5 way adjustable when I finish it.
Mark's car, which he sold, also ran the Tokikos.
I think most of the production run also got Tokikos, but I am not 100% sure.

I have no problem with you exploring other options, and you may even be able to come up with a product that works and is less expensive than the route Mark choose when He designed the strut housings. But keep in mind that these ARE a proven product, and if we can meet the minimum order quantities another run can be done.

Chris Obert
 
rx1900 said:
Kevin. From what I gather, the Tokikos should be fine with the moderate spring rates I intend to use. I would think that cranked to full hard they would accept a pretty stiff spring, but of course I don't know. I would like to hear from anyone else out there who is running them on their X, but from what I gathered from my searches, there seems to be very few. As for spring rates for the street, there seems to be quite a diversity of opinions out there. I sort of recall one member ( I think maybe Dan from Philly) who has 2 or more X's, one of which has some maybe IAP springs on it. Those springs are only claimed to be about 15% stiffer than stock (which would make them about 140/180) yet I thinks he finds it uncomfortably harsh compared to his other X. This gives me cause for concern.Have you ever run stiffer than stock springs ? I am encouraged by your comments about stiffer springs and ride quality, so perhaps we will have to try and see !
Click to expand...

Hi Doug:

I have not run illuminas on an x. I have run them on Mk2 Golf's and Mk1 Scirocco's. In autocross setups, we ran out of rebound and compression long before we got to the appropriate spring rates for those chassis. (550 fr/900rr was where we finished).

Current nice x has Vick's / IAP sport sprongs and GR2's.
Race x has koni's (reds, rebuilt and revalved by Koni NA, and converted to double adjustable) with 375 fr wit sway bar, 500r. Sway bar will be going away and front spring rate rising.

Good luck and let us know where you end up.
 
rx1900 said:
Koni used to make a cartridge for the X1/9, but these have been discontinued for at least 20 years. Even if you are lucky enough to find some NOS ones, I wouldn't bother. From my experience, new Koni's that have been sittig on a shelf for years suffer from dried-out seals and they fail within a few miles of use.
Click to expand...

There were 2 different Koni "reds" for the x. One has a smaller diameter shaft than the other. The larger shaft ones can be rebuilt by Koni NA (and Koni rebuilders) and converted to Yellow (externally adjustable) specs.
 
Those "Germans" don't have any real nationally based secrets on steel used in their cars and it not likely any better than the steel used by the Italians.

This reminds me of Sheffield steel (made famous by clock springs), Swedish steel and...

Back in them o'le black smith days before steel and alloy steels were standardized, each steel producer had their "secret recipe". Those days are long gone and have been replaced with a highly controlled set of standards that have international equivalents.

Have a look at this steel cross reference chart:
http://www.kennametal.com/images/pdf/techRef/turning/materialGradeComparisonTable.pdf

The real difference here, the VW wabbit housings are larger diameter which makes the structure stronger.. and 3mm thick walls adds more strength too.

Typical steel tubing used for these housings are low carbon steel with 60Kpsi tensile strength. Most are DOM or welded seam..

On that set of strut housing we made for the LeMons racer, they are made of 4130 chrom-moly steel seamless tubing with no less than 90Kpsi tensile strenght. These housings are also 2" OD with 0.095 wall which makes them quite strong..

If I were to make strut housing from scratch again, it would made of this same material.. and heat treated to 125Kpsi post welding, or twice the strength of a typical strut tube.

As for bending strut housings, any of them can be bent.. it just depends on how much they get loaded..


Bernice

rx1900 said:
Another benefit of using the VW housings is that they are quite strong and sturdy. About 3mm thickness of good German steel. The original Fiat housings are only about 2mm thick, and according to one search are quite prone to bending. Sure enough, when we chucked one of my used Fiat O.E. housings in the lathe as an experiment, it was clearly bent !! There is no way one of the VW housings would ever bend.

Cheers, Doug
Click to expand...
 
Interesting comment on the Koni reds

Were the part numbers for the different Koni struts the same?
What is the diameter of the shaft of the Koni that can be rebuilt?

Chris
 
Kevin B (Asheville said:
There were 2 different Koni "reds" for the x. One has a smaller diameter shaft than the other. The larger shaft ones can be rebuilt by Koni NA (and Koni rebuilders) and converted to Yellow (externally adjustable) specs.
Click to expand...

As Chris asked, can you provide any details on part numbers or diameters?

I have a set of NOS red inserts but this is the first I've heard of there being different models of these.

Thanks,
 
Update

Hi folks. Thanks for all your responses and input.

Bernice: Yes I suppose in most respects steel is steel, but I do think quality can vary, especially in regards to impurities. And I do know the Italians used some pretty dodgy Russian steel back then ! If you compared the Fiat housing and the VW housing side by side, I'm sure you would agree the VW unit is way stronger - you're right mostly due to its increased diameter and wall thickness. IMO the VW housing is easily strong enough for anything we could possibly throw at it.

I must admit when I first looked at the VW housing, I figured it would be way too difficult to adapt it for use on the X. So difficult, in fact, I too figured it would be easier to make new housings from scratch.

But then I realized something. I have looked at a lot of different Rabbit inserts in the last few weeks and I can tell you that every one is a little different. Different O.D.s, different top sizes and shapes, different lengths, etc. All come with bushings, spacers, and top nuts. But they ALL have only one thing in common - they all are designed to fit inside the VW housing. Thus unless the housing I made was absolutely identical to the VW housing - pretty much impossible to do - then I would also have to make new custom - lower centering bushing, upper centering bushing, top nut, spacer, etc. - to fit the insert into the new housing. And changing down the road to a different brand of insert would require another different set of bushings, etc. Not ideal.

So it became clear to me that the only way to have a housing that would accept ANY VW insert would be to .... somehow use the VW housing. So I found a way.

I also figured that making new brackets with any degree of accuracy would be a daunting task. Requiring very precise jigs. Using the Fiat O.E. sleeve/bracket would guarantee a perfect fit easily.


I think it will now be best to start a new post. I will title it "DIY coilovers" to better reflect the content for future searches. It is difficult to gauge the real interest out there in this. I think a lot of members out there are searching for suspension alternatives. Note that this post has gotten over 1000 views so far.

So for you folks out there, I will see you at the new post as soon as I can type it. Meanwhile, keep those responses coming.

Cheers, Doug

P.S. Meanwhile, here is a little preview:

x19coilovers2019.jpg
 
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Some of are not commenting

rx1900 said:
Note that this post has gotten over 1000 views so far. This proves the interest. But also note that only 3 people came forward to request my posting how I did it ! Conclusion: members are interested in this subject but think I am full of %$#.

So for you 3 folks out there, I will see you at the new post as soon as I can type it. Meanwhile, keep those responses coming.

Cheers, Doug
Click to expand...

because we have no useful input. :)

I am following along, but I really have no knowledge on the subject. I would love to create a set of coil overs, but lack the skill, time, etc to create them on my own.

Keep the info coming. While we all may not comment, we do appreciate your effort and willingness to share. Thanks!!
 
No Doug,

I never meant steel is steel, the point was, modern steel is graded and most industry standards types of steel has international equivalents.

It is curious how the Fiat-Russian steel quote and taken on a life of it's own. Keep in mind this quote about Fiat-Russian steel came from the USA-Soviet cold war ear. Like the rust propaganda against Fiat in the USA & UK, this propaganda has political roots.

While Fiat used Russian steel for car bodies at one point, the struts came from a supplier to Fiat.. it is not likely that supplier used "Russian Steel".

Regardless, without analysis of the steel in question, it is questionable to assume what it is and where it might have come from..

Those struts housing look quite workable. Do post what ya did. I'm sure many are interested in what ya did and how it was done.


:thumbsup:
Bernice


rx1900 said:
Hi folks. Thanks for all your responses and input.

Bernice: Yes I suppose in most respects steel is steel, but I do think quality can vary, especially in regards to impurities. And I do know the Italians used some pretty dodgy Russian steel back then ! If you compared the Fiat housing and the VW housing side by side, I'm sure you would agree the VW unit is way stronger - you're right mostly due to its increased diameter and wall thickness. IMO the VW housing is easily strong enough for anything we could possibly throw at it.

I must admit when I first looked at the VW housing, I figured it would be way too difficult to adapt it for use on the X. So difficult, in fact, I too figured it would be easier to make new housings from scratch.

But then I realized something. I have looked at a lot of different Rabbit inserts in the last few weeks and I can tell you that every one is a little different. Different O.D.s, different top sizes and shapes, different lengths, etc. All come with bushings, spacers, and top nuts. But they ALL have only one thing in common - they all are designed to fit inside the VW housing. Thus unless the housing I made was absolutely identical to the VW housing - pretty much impossible to do - then I would also have to make new custom - lower centering bushing, upper centering bushing, top nut, spacer, etc. - to fit the insert into the new housing. And changing down the road to a different brand of insert would require another different set of bushings, etc. Not ideal.

So it became clear to me that the only way to have a housing that would accept ANY VW insert would be to .... somehow use the VW housing. So I found a way.

I also figured that making new brackets with any degree of accuracy would be a daunting task. Requiring very precise jigs. Using the Fiat O.E. sleeve/bracket would guarantee a perfect fit easily.

I realize, Bernice, that you don't seem to agree with my approach. And that is just fine by me. This is, after all, supposed to be a discussion. And it wouldn't be much fun - and we wouldn't learn much - if we all agreed on everything ! I'm sure if I had your machinery and skill I would be looking at things a little differently. My friend Bruce the machinist came over with his camera to take pictures while I was working. He too, was of the opinion that I should make them from scratch. He commented that: a) he was surprized at how quickly and effectively my methods worked, and that: b) the whole proccess scared the crap out of him !

I think it will now be best to start a new post. I will title it "DIY coilovers" to better reflect the content for future searches. It is difficult to gauge the real interest out there in this. I think a lot of members out there are searching for suspension alternatives. Note that this post has gotten over 1000 views so far. This proves the interest. But also note that only 3 people came forward to request my posting how I did it ! Conclusion: members are interested in this subject but think I am full of %$#.

So for you 3 folks out there, I will see you at the new post as soon as I can type it. Meanwhile, keep those responses coming.

Cheers, Doug

P.S. Meanwhile, here is a little preview:
Click to expand...
 
Update

Hi again folks. Sorry for the delay, but part way through my new long post my computor crashed. Hope to have it fixed soon. There sure seems to be a lot of interest here and I will post my coilover build details as soon as possible. I am writing this on another computor - all my pics are on the busted computor.

Cheers, Doug
 
I had a set of the x Konis from a place that was clearing out old inventory nearly twenty years ago, the rebound bumpstops would fail if you drove on them for a couple days, so you could either take them apart upon arrival and remove the offending blob before it got into the valving, or get them all to fail, and send them back to Koni, which is what I did. They were going for $15 each.
 
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