BVH 1100?

[Jeff Stich]

With all of the recent discussion(s) here on building performance 1300's, stroking to 1600cc+, etc., my mind got to wondering...now that my "new" 1100 is installed in my 128 & running ok, how can I help it perform better?

I do realize that the 1100 head is somewhat limited to start with by its' small combustion chamber width, & the USA 1100 head gets further kicked to the curb by the 1mm-1.5mm(?) deep recessed area cut into/around the combustion chamber. But if, say, a Euro 1100 or Yugo 1100 head is used instead (I have the Euro 1100 head installed), then a fairly decent (for street) static CR should be achievable, at least on par with the Euro 1100 128's. This turns my focus onto what can be done to help the 1100 "breathe" easier...

Using stock parts from an old 128 1300 engine instead of those from the original 128 1100, I have (*or will acquire);

1. The 2-barrel Weber 32DMTR carb & manifold (128.AR in my case) vs. the 1-barrel 32ICA carb/manifold.

2. The 1974-only 4-2-1 cast exhaust manifold/downpipes assembly (or similar unit from a Yugo or Strada) or ANSA 4-2-1 header (long extractor pipes) instead of the restrictive 4-1 cast manifold/downpipe.

3.* Mild "street/touring" cam like a PBS SX-1 or S-2 (for standard-length valves, not PBS BVH short valves), or Euro X1/9 1500, or Alquati/Breda/Serra/Piper??? instead of the stock cam (the stock cam I currently have installed was originally from a USA Strada 1500FI engine - unfortunately, it's the only stock Fiat SOHC cam I had on hand when building/installing the engine, & I needed the engine to be easy-to-tune from the get-go, as this is the car I drive to/from work/etc.). I do have a NOS cam that I think is for a Euro 128 1300 Coupe(?), but it's still in its box & covered in the original Cosmoline goop (I'll check the Fiat part number on the box & post it here, hopefully someone will have the specs on it?).

4. Mild head porting (ala Steve C's notes on bowl/throat work), will likely ask John Edwards (Costa Mesa R&D) to do this, as I'm terrible (unknowledgable) at it on these engines.

5. Slightly larger intake valves/seats? Perhaps ~37.5mm max? (not sure what other sizes are available off-the-shelf in the 36.5mm-37.5mm range from other Fiat SOHC family derivatives, or how to work around de-shrouding this larger valve on an 1100 head?).

6. Yugo Bosch EI ignition vs. 128 Marelli points type - soooo much nicer!

My overall goal with this is to free up some of the power/flexibility potential of the 1100 engine that was "lost" due to constraints by Fiat (for fuel economy, etc.) &/or U.S. Fed. emissions requirements. I'd prefer to leave the new 1100 shortblock installed in the car, but I have no problems with doing head/cam swaps, etc. if needed. My car is old enough to be exempt from emissions requirements, so thankfully that's not an issue to worry about. :woot:

I'm not looking for a balls-out screamer with only high-rpm top-end performance; if so, I'd simply take my old 1300 or 1500 & build a stroker 1600+ like everyone else. I do want this 1100 to be a comfortable, reliable & somewhat economical daily-driver that can actually get out of its' own way & deliver a little "something extra" when called upon to do so, without me having to swap in a 1300 or 1500 instead. :grin:

Steve C., I've been reading your notes on ME/VE/CR/CH/etc. in the engine-build conversations here & couldn't agree more; these are the same things I've been (trying to be) taking into consideration for this 1100, though the "performance" factors are obviously toned-down a bit in my case. If you have any comments or recommendations, I'm open to hearing them (from you or from anyone else). :thumbsup:

 

[X19]

Why not install a 1300 or a 1500? Would probably be cheaper and hassle free daily runner.

 

[fiatfactory]

Jeff,

all good thoughts, and all heading in the right direction!

Cam choice, I would be opting towards a 24/68 euro grind, prefer a 1500 as there is more total lift, but a 1300 type with the lower lift will work almost as well. From figures I've seen it appears that cams like the sx-1 and even faza 35/75 are close to (but not as good as) a std euro 1500 cam anyway .. and the std cam doesn't have any regrind compromises or extended valve open time issues (and possibly dropping dynamic cr)..if you already have a 1300 24/68 cam I would use that, your only loosing about half a mm of lift, otherwise it's the same cam.

128AR manifold is a good one... use it

32dmtr is nice, something like a 34dmtr from a 127 sport is just a little nicer as the chokes are just that little bigger again, trust me these little engines like to breathe....if you have a good 32dmtr already in your hands, use it

Definitely go for the no recess 1100 head... make sure you have a head with the later style combustion chamber...far more efficient, and the efficiency is what we are chasing here...right?

Valves...well in this application I would be staying std size...and optimizing the valve and seat. The stock valves quite often have a pronounced lip across the back,removing this is a good move. The stock seat can be throated out some, another good move. The stock seat and valve can be cut for a worthwhile amount of additional flow, if you have a good machinist who is prepared to take the time.

Porting, John at CM R&D will be more than capable, but it really is a simple tidy up you want to do, certainly not increasing the port size by any appreciable amount as we want the port air speed to be really high. More important would be the seat throating, and he sure has the machinery to handle that job, and the valve and seat cut...I'm sure he has a "favorite" set of angles for a sohc, so go with his recommendations on this.

I would be using the 4/2 cast manifold in preference to anything aftermarket off the shelf...$ for $ this will make the biggest improvement. Exhaust system is something you haven't touched on, but you'll need to go for a 51mm (2") system for best results, stock pipe size is way too small even for an 1116.

electronic ignition won't necessarily make more power, but the reliability and economy factor makes this a no brainer improvement...

Certainly an interesting project Jeff, I'd be keen to see the build and results. You'll end up with a coupe 1100 euro engine, about 68hp?? nice boost over 55hp?? (that's from memory so might not be 100% right) maybe a little more if you fiddle and tune it right

I would also invest in a millers mule cam gear as part of this build.

SteveC

 

[Jeff Stich]

Why not install a 1300 or a 1500? Would probably be cheaper and hassle free daily runner.

:huh2: Please re-read my post above, in particular:

... I do want this 1100 to be a comfortable, reliable & somewhat economical daily-driver that can actually get out of its' own way & deliver a little "something extra" when called upon to do so, without me having to swap in a 1300 or 1500 instead.

I just installed a new (as in NOS - New Old Stock) 1100 engine in my 128 only two weeks ago. I don't want to have to gather more parts to rebuild a worn-out 1300 or 1500 & then install it. I'm perfectly fine with having the 1100, I'd just like to help unleash its' potential further. I already have nearly all of the parts needed to help the 1100 along. Only things needed would likely be a better cam & some head/valve work, which are a lot cheaper & easier than rebuilding & installing a 1300/1500 engine anyways.

Simply adding more cc's is not the answer to my question.

 

[Jeff Stich]

Jeff, all good thoughts, and all heading in the right direction!

Good to hear. I'd hate to be working against myself on this.

Cam choice, I would be opting towards a 24/68 euro grind, prefer a 1500 as there is more total lift, but a 1300 type with the lower lift will work almost as well.

Yeah, I haven't had a chance to clean up this NOS 1300 cam in order to measure it accurately. I was hoping to be able to show the part number & someone might have the specs on hand already (lazy me). I'll have to get over to storage later today & get the part # from it first.

From figures I've seen it appears that cams like the sx-1 and even faza 35/75 are close to (but not as good as) a std euro 1500 cam anyway .. and the std cam doesn't have any regrind compromises or extended valve open time issues (and possibly dropping dynamic cr)..if you already have a 1300 24/68 cam I would use that, your only loosing about half a mm of lift, otherwise it's the same cam.

I had similar thoughts on the SX-1 & Faza 35-75 cams & passed on recent offerings, thinking in the back of my mind that the Euro 1500 might be a better choice for my purpose. I bought a Euro 1500 cam from overseas a while back, unfortunately it turned out to have a few (severely) worn lobes. What is the lift of the Euro 1500 cam? (I'd like to compare to my mystery NOS cam)

128AR manifold is a good one... use it
32dmtr is nice, something like a 34dmtr from a 127 sport is just a little nicer as the chokes are just that little bigger again, trust me these little engines like to breathe....if you have a good 32dmtr already in your hands, use it

I have the 32dmtr/128AR combo on the car now, & I have a few 34dmtr's in storage to choose from if desired. I wasn't sure if the 34 would be too much for the little 1100 or not, so opted with the already-known-good & running 32dmtr from my old 1300 engine, since the 1100 is currently bone-stock otherwise internally.

Definitely go for the no recess 1100 head... make sure you have a head with the later style combustion chamber...far more efficient, and the efficiency is what we are chasing here...right?

The no-recess Euro 1100 head is on the car now, & I have a Yugo 1100 head in storage to "play" with if needed. I would not even consider putting a USA 1100 head on this engine, too low of a CR to fight against. What exactly is the "later style combustion chamber"? Do you have any pics of early vs. late style? Would my assumption that the Yugo 1100 head would be the "later" type be incorrect? (yes, efficiency is what I'm after)

Valves...well in this application I would be staying std size...and optimizing the valve and seat...The stock seat and valve can be cut for a worthwhile amount of additional flow, if you have a good machinist who is prepared to take the time.

Gotcha, understood. Though I've never used John's services yet, I'm quite confident in his abilities & skill, no question (I've had/used many of his Fiat 600/850 hop-up items from back in his JO/EL Engineering days). :wink2:

Porting, John at CM R&D will be more than capable, but it really is a simple tidy up you want to do, certainly not increasing the port size by any appreciable amount as we want the port air speed to be really high. More important would be the seat throating, and he sure has the machinery to handle that job, and the valve and seat cut...I'm sure he has a "favorite" set of angles for a sohc, so go with his recommendations on this.

Ok, sounds good.

I would be using the 4/2 cast manifold in preference to anything aftermarket off the shelf...$ for $ this will make the biggest improvement. Exhaust system is something you haven't touched on, but you'll need to go for a 51mm (2") system for best results, stock pipe size is way too small even for an 1116.

I probably should have elaborated further on the exhaust...I currently have an ANSA 4-2-1 header on the car which has a 2" exit pipe, then a 9"-long steel-mesh flex hose/pipe unit (to help alleviate possible stress cracking from vibration), then a ~24"-long 2" pipe extension connecting to a 128 Coupe SuperSprint center pipe/resonator unit (slightly larger diameter pipe than the 128 Sedan SuperSprint unit I had on it before), connected to a 128 Sedan SuperSprint dual-resonator/dual tip rear section. Basically it's these parts, though no longer shiny/new like this:




One of the dual rear tips broke off recently, so I'll likely replace the rear 1/3 section with a simple curved 2" pipe with a single ANSA chrome resonator tip on the end.

I also have a stock Yugo 4-2 cast manifold (similar to the 128/Strada 4-2 manifolds), both a Yugo 2-1 short downpipe & a 128 2-1 long downpipe (like the Euro 128 Coupe), all of which can be made to work with the rest of the exhaust parts noted above, or I can simply fab something up to work from there on back (I've found a good local exhaust guy who is also easy on the wallet).

electronic ignition won't necessarily make more power, but the reliability and economy factor makes this a no brainer improvement...

Exactly. I got this system off of a junkyard Yugo years ago & it has been rock-solid reliable for me. I change the cap/rotor once a year as routine maintenance, & replacements are relatively inexpensive & easy to get.

Certainly an interesting project Jeff, I'd be keen to see the build and results. You'll end up with a coupe 1100 euro engine, about 68hp?? nice boost over 55hp?? (that's from memory so might not be 100% right) maybe a little more if you fiddle and tune it right

My realistic goal is 68-70hp. That's done just with fairly simple mods & swapping-on of "preferred" stock Fiat components. That's a gain of 13-15hp - not bad, really.

I would also invest in a millers mule cam gear as part of this build.

I have an adjustable cam pulley, just haven't installed it yet. I was waiting for whenever I install a performance cam, then I could use it to its' fullest advantage. It's a neat pulley variant I've never seen before, using the old plastic/resin type pulley(!) but with an adjustable metal center hub. Sorta looks like someone took advantage of this type of pulleys' weakness (the center hub coming loose) & exploited it to their advantage - haha! It is nicely done though, not some backyard hack-job. It may have been done by PBS, as I got it from a PBS BVH & cam assembly I used to have. I have a stock pulley on the car now, as I wanted things as simple as possible at first in order to get the car back up & running asap.

 

[fiatfactory]

Well it sounds to me like your on the right track, and your goal is very realistic, and yep, a 15hp boost will make the 128 more of what you want.

Dig out the Fiat part number on the mystery cam, and I'll let you know if I have info on it...1500 euro cam is 9.9 lift on the inlet from memory about 9.35 on the exhaust... 1300 euro cam is same duration specs exactly, but with about half a mm less lift so around the 9.35 lift on both in/ex ... but I have Spec and data books on 128 sedan/128 rally /128 coupe /x19 1300 aust / x19 1500 UK spec so I can look up the exact numbers for you without any problem, when I'm at home, probably late tomorrow at this stage...

I actually prefer the 4/2 manifold to the ansa extractors... they tended to all have nasty welding dags right in the port ... some even being welded on the pipe inside rather than around the outside. Made to a price,not to a standard.

Same with the ansa exhaust components, never been a big fan, they tended to fall apart with rot pretty quickly...IMO there are plenty of better quality exhaust components out there, find a quality 2" muffler offset /centre, one that has a generous internal pipe size, as a lot of 2" mufflers shrink down to just 1.5 inch pipes internally... mount it in the middle of the car and run a simple 2" tailpipe, no resonator.I'll try and get a pic of my 128 sedan, just like that but in stainless steel.

Those ansa tailpipe trims are usually very restrictive too, they have a tiny peashooter pipe for an exit most of the time....

Later model combustion chamber shape,check the performance 1300 thread, the tipo chinese head is a good example, as it's nice and shiney new, that's to suit an 86mm bore though, in that same thread Paul started with an 80mm bore style head...that's the late shape you want.

Advantage of all the mods your doing, if you keep your right foot under control and only operate on the first barrel of the carb, you'll get excellent highway economy, probably better than what your currently seeing...and the extra punch when you open it up.

I basically did all this to my 128 sedan 30+ years ago, and it works great.

SteveC

 

[Jeff Stich]

Back again...

Dig out the Fiat part number on the mystery cam, and I'll let you know if I have info on it...1500 euro cam is 9.9 lift on the inlet from memory about 9.35 on the exhaust... 1300 euro cam is same duration specs exactly, but with about half a mm less lift so around the 9.35 lift on both in/ex ...

Ok, I got the mystery cam out of storage & took a few pics of it along with the box labels:





First off, the tag on the box says the cam is for the Euro 128 & Ritmo 1300cc engines (I'm assuming it's not original for USA engines, as we never got the Ritmo 1300, only the Strada 1500). The Fiat part number is 4331512, "Made in Italy" is also a good sign. :grin:

So...it's not a Euro 1500 cam, but it's still a step in the right direction.

I cleaned the Cosmoline stuff off of a few lobes & took some quick measurements:




First measurement of overall lobe height is actually closer to 37.77mm rather than 37.79mm as shown, I was just having difficulty holding the cam & the digital caliper in one hand while taking the photo with the other. Second measurement of overall lobe width (base circle) was pretty even at 28.37mm. So using these: 37.77mm - 28.37mm = 9.4mm lift, correct? Sounds about spot-on with your earlier comment about the Euro 1300 cam (9.4mm) vs. Euro 1500 cam (9.9mm).

I actually prefer the 4/2 manifold to the ansa extractors... they tended to all have nasty welding dags right in the port ... some even being welded on the pipe inside rather than around the outside. Made to a price,not to a standard.

Yes, the Ansa header I have fits that same ::cough:: "standard", but only at the union(s) of the 4 intake pipes & the manifold plate, ie; lumpily welded on the inside of the pipes instead of the outside. I ground down the welds a bit before installing it, with the intention of having the outer joints welded properly & then finish removing the inner lumps at a later date (when I pull the head off to have the valves/seats/throats done, & install a different cam). I also made sure to install the factory lower exhaust/trans mounting bracket & added the rear flex joint for good measure to keep vibration-induced cracks at a minimum.

Concerning the factory 4-2-1 exhaust manifold & downpipes unit (as on the Euro 1300 Coupe as you know it, 1974 USA 128 & later Strada/Yugo types as I know it); you've recommended going with a 2"-minimum exhaust pipe on the cobbled system I currently have installed, yet the 2-1 pipe assembly on the factory unit is easily smaller than that. If I do end up using the factory 4-2-1 set-up (instead of the Ansa header), would that not be more restrictive (overall) to use? :confuse2:

Later model combustion chamber shape,check the performance 1300 thread, the tipo chinese head is a good example, as it's nice and shiney new, that's to suit an 86mm bore though, in that same thread Paul started with an 80mm bore style head...that's the late shape you want.

Thanks. I'll have to wade through that thread later to find it.

Advantage of all the mods your doing, if you keep your right foot under control and only operate on the first barrel of the carb, you'll get excellent highway economy, probably better than what your currently seeing...and the extra punch when you open it up.

One other mod I may not have mentioned in this thread is that I switched from the original 128 "stump-puller" 4.42 final drive trans to a much longer-legged Yugo 3.76 trans. I did this to enable more-relaxed highway cruising & a somewhat better rpm/mph match. Previously, I hardly ever used 1st gear when starting from a stoplight (I'd be shifting to 2nd only halfway through the intersection), & on the highway the car was screaming its lungs out at only 75-80mph. I had intended to use this trans with a 1500 swap, but now with the 1100 it's almost at a point of needing just a little more "oomph" to be comfortable in the lower rpm range (hence another reason for me to give the anemic USA 1100 a boost using Euro 1100 parts & a few other sensible mods). I'm still in the "break-in" period with the new engine, so I've treaded lightly on the go-pedal & only had the car up to 50-55mph speeds in the last 2 weeks, but I can already tell that the car is (will be) much more relaxed when cruising at higher speeds, which is what I've been wanting for a loooong time now. Might also reduce that ringing in my ears a bit. :wink2:

This swap is also a contributing factor on why I've been focusing on the low/medium rpm power range with the engine rather than the high-rpm band. I'd prefer a flexible/versatile performance range rather than the more common "on or off" type range of the higher-rpm tuned 1300/1500/etc. engines.

All of the Yugo 1100 cars here in the USA got this 3.76 trans, & the ones I've driven seemed quite happy with it.

 

[Jeff Stich]

Re: That funky cam pulley

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiatfactory
I would also invest in a millers mule cam gear as part of this build.

I have an adjustable cam pulley, just haven't installed it yet... It's a neat pulley variant I've never seen before, using the old plastic/resin type pulley(!) but with an adjustable metal center hub.

:doh:Almost forgot about this! Here's the oddball adjustable cam pulley I was talking about:





Sadly, the timing belt teeth on it are quite worn, so I definitely won't use it as-is. Instead, I'll likely use this resin pulley as a pattern to have another one machined from a new stock resin pulley (I have a few NOS ones), then I'll just swap this alloy hub unit over to the new pulley.

 

[ernie42]

Hi Jeff, I am in the process of doing the same as you. I have a 74 1.1L Italian Assembled sedan with 60k original miles on it. I have upgraded to the 2 inch exhaust and but only have a 30/32 crab from a Uno on it at the moment and the 12/52 original cam. We are lucky here in New Zealand as we got the Euro spec engines unlike the Aussies so I am hoping that either you or Steve C can find the serial casting number for the Euro 1500 cam as the local fiat wrecker has them just in a pile. I have just bought a NOS dcnf and am trying to get a Fiat Iava manifold from Argentina but unfortunately Eb*y Argentine won't let me bid or contact the sellers. I might end up getting a 34DMTR and was wondering if you get yours up and running if I can pick your brain for jetting etc.
cheers
Evan

 

[fiatfactory]

Jeff,

That cam looks right ... lift numbers look about right too. I've still not made it home to my place, but from memory that is the correct part number too...only thing is it's handwritten on... What are the other labels and markings on the box? I might have a reference if it's an aftermarket or OEM cam.

Tall final drive, nice, and it will make cruising more enjoyable... no good for a hill climb car, but that's not what this baby is for, is it.

That cam gear looks quite nicely made, with the milled slots for the fasteners. Yep that's what wrong with those plastic gears, they wear out way too fast... especially when you add a little oil and grit into the mix. But sure if you have a new outer made from another NOS gear, you'll get at least 20k miles out of it ...and I'm sure the price was right.

If you go the 128 coupe front pipe, slice the collector off and replace with a 2" one... I also use a short section of (stainless) flex too straight after the stub...then 2" from there back...

Sounds like you had the right idea all along... so stick to plan A :wink2:

Ernie, no luck with a cast in number, ever, not on sohc cams. No such thing. You'll have to measure up, no other way, unless you buy new in a sealed box with a Fiat part number on it.

SteveC

 

[Jeff Stich]

That cam looks right ... lift numbers look about right too. I've still not made it home to my place, but from memory that is the correct part number too...only thing is it's handwritten on... What are the other labels and markings on the box? I might have a reference if it's an aftermarket or OEM cam.

The 2 labels (shown in my previous post) are the only things on the box. There is no brand name anywhere, just a plain brown cardboard box with the 2 labels. Though the part number is hand-written along the top of the label, it's also printed along the bottom, ie: where it reads "RIF. ORIG. 4331512" as pointed out by the green arrow here:

That cam gear looks quite nicely made, with the milled slots for the fasteners.

I was impressed with that, as well. To think that someone actually took the time to engineer & mill this thing...I gotta believe it was PBS-made, as they're the only guys I know of that would take an otherwise unwanted pulley like this & "massage" it to make something useful from it - they liked to do odd stuff like this with parts that were just lying around, sometimes just to see what they'd get. How about a 128 1100 block with the rear cylinder completely milled off, creating a 3-cylinder 850cc engine with a special-built twin cam head & using a Weber IDA carb? (built for a CSR/DSR type racecar, but I'd love to pair it with a Porsche transaxle & stuff it into a Fiat 600!)

Yep that's what wrong with those plastic gears, they wear out way too fast... especially when you add a little oil and grit into the mix. But sure if you have a new outer made from another NOS gear, you'll get at least 20k miles out of it ...and I'm sure the price was right.

I must have good luck, I get waaay more than 20k miles out of them. But then, I try to keep the t-belt end clean & covered. I was thinking of having a few of the plastic gears machined at the same time (not just one), just to have replacements on hand if/when needed (re-using the alloy hub part). The price for the one I have now was indeed "right" - it came free with the head/cambox assembly when I rescued it from a junkyard car. :woot:

If you go the 128 coupe front pipe, slice the collector off and replace with a 2" one... I also use a short section of (stainless) flex too straight after the stub...then 2" from there back...
Sounds like you had the right idea all along... so stick to plan A :wink2:

So I'd just run 2" from the joint after the 2-1 collector (from green arrows & on towards the back)?



Or do you mean cut the collector joint off entirely & fab a new 2" collector for the original pipes to merge into (at red arrows)?

Or is "Plan A" my idea of modifying/repairing my Ansa header (as it should have been made originally), retaining my 2" mesh flex joint & then using 2" pipe further back through the rest of the system? :confuse2:

 

[Jeff Stich]

Hi Jeff, I am in the process of doing the same as you. I have a 74 1.1L Italian Assembled sedan with 60k original miles on it. I have upgraded to the 2 inch exhaust and but only have a 30/32 crab from a Uno on it at the moment and the 12/52 original cam. We are lucky here in New Zealand as we got the Euro spec engines unlike the Aussies so I am hoping that either you or Steve C can find the serial casting number for the Euro 1500 cam as the local fiat wrecker has them just in a pile.

As Steve already noted, the Fiat SOHC cams don't have cast-in part/serial numbers, so you likely have to sort through that pile & physically measure the cam lobes (like I showed being done in my previous post). Find the one with the 1500's 9.9mm lift & you've got yourself a winner! (and get one for me while you're there!)

I have just bought a NOS dcnf and am trying to get a Fiat Iava manifold from Argentina but unfortunately Eb*y Argentine won't let me bid or contact the sellers.

I've also tried going through eBay Arg(!) for some cool 128 Iava & SuperEuropa items, but I've found their non-foreigners restrictions are just ridiculous. :wall:

An Argentinian friend-of-a-friend of mine (who I know just happens to also like 128's :woot may be the next person I contact for assistance on this...time will tell.

I might end up getting a 34DMTR and was wondering if you get yours up and running if I can pick your brain for jetting etc.

Sure, no problem. A fair starting point would be the settings used for the Lancia Beta series cars that this carb was often used on. I also have a handful of jetting specs (written down somewhere?) from 128 & X1/9 folks that have this carb on their car (though on 1300 & 1500 engines, no 1100's), which might help narrow jet choices down a little further.

 

[fiatfactory]

Cut halfway between red and green arrows ,so the resultant hole is approx 2" diameter and weld on 2" stub, the stock collectors are usually quite good internally, but it depends on the manufacturer, just get rid of the tiny pipe (1,5 inch I think) and it will work well. As I said, I like the stock components (manifold /downpipe) better than the ansa headers, and they will last a whole lot longer than the ansa too....and you get to run a factory heat shield too, something I like to retain if possible.

Plan A = the basic outline that you had all along ... all sounds good to me... nothing radical, sticking with the stock (euro) parameters and making subtle improvements, always a recipe for success.

"so you likely have to sort through that pile & physically measure the cam lobes (like I showed being done in my previous post). Find the one with the 1500's 9.9mm lift & you've got yourself a winner!"

Not quite that simple... 9.9 lift inlet also comes as a 12/52 cam ... in some later models, like we get in our regata 1500 engine (rated at 85hp/80lb/ft, 32/34 carb,twin out ex,9.4:1) it's a higher lift but low duration emissions compromise... if you have a 12/52 and a 24/68 side by side you can see the difference in the nose of the lobe, well I can, but I 'spose 30 years experience might have a little to do with that.

SteveC

 

[ernie42]

cams

Hi guys i knew it was just wishful thinking that the cams might be number doh! The wrecker that I use has fully assembled engines as well so this might be the easier and quicker way to narrow down the right cam-

Steve the high lift cam is it from the 138.A4.000 or the 138.A2.000.

Jeff if you are interested i can see if they can find 2 and i will take some pics to show condition etc and you can decide if you want to get it. I am out of action for the next few weeks due to a knee replacement- not from age but from suffering a hit and run in my youth that has come back to haunt me but i will phone them to see if they can find the cams.

At the moment I am running the 4.08 dif ratio and was wondering if you knew where i could pick up a 3.76 set up. NZ is a lot more like Italy with windy roads rather than great highways like the the US or Aus but the lower ratio might still be nice to have.

Jeff what is the numbering of your 34DMTR ( size chokes )as the last time i checked at the wreckers i found 4 different set ups.

And one last thing guys -you have been talking about early and late engines. I was wondering which category mine falls into ?
Feb 74 Italian Assembled 1116cc

cheers Evan

 

[fiatfactory]

"And one last thing guys -you have been talking about early and late engines. I was wondering which category mine falls into ?
Feb 74 Italian Assembled 1116cc"

depends what the cast in number at the front of the head is, towards the timing belt end. Let me know and I "might" have it listed

I'll check the engine code for you...but basically you want the cam from an x19 1500 euro spec engine, so a complete engine will have an alloy sump, oil pressure transducer at the front of the engine near the oil filter, and be fitted with a 34dmtr and twin out exhaust ...if you find one of those, just buy the whole thing to fit to your 128!

SteveC

 

[Jeff Stich]

I had a few random thoughts running through my head today about bits of this conversation. In particular:

128AR manifold is a good one... use it

Do you have (or know of) a breakdown list of best-flowing (or worst-flowing) stock 128 intake manifolds (going by stock casting numbers/etc.) similar to your list of X1/9 intake manifolds? Are there any differences between the Sedan/Wagon, Coupe & Rally (USA or Euro) manifolds? Just wondering if the manifold I'm using is just "good", or possibly "best"?

32dmtr is nice, something like a 34dmtr from a 127 sport is just a little nicer as the chokes are just that little bigger again, trust me these little engines like to breathe...

As I noted, I do have a 34DMTR on hand to use should I choose to. If I decide later to go with that carb, should I look at using a different air filter housing (other than my stock 128-32dmtr housing) to increase available air intake flow as well? Maybe something like a Lancia Beta air filter housing unit? I don't even know what one looks like or if it's oriented correctly to use in a 128, but since my 34 carb likely came from a Beta, that was my first thought of a possible source.

Definitely go for the no recess 1100 head... make sure you have a head with the later style combustion chamber...far more efficient

Ok, I looked at the thread you noted that talked about the "late" combustion chamber style, & I understand the differences now. Comparing these details to photos of past Yugo 1100 heads I've had/sold, the Yugo 1100 heads are the "late" type with the little "dividers" in the water jackets openings, the laid-back spark plug walls & no circular combustion chamber recess - so that's a good source of usable heads for me! :woot:

Unfortunately, I can't remember if the Euro 128 1100 head that I have on the car at the moment is early or late type. :wall: So the best plan for me would be to modify a Yugo 1100 head (seats/bowls/throats) & then just swap it onto the car when I have the time (allowing me to drive the car meanwhile). Or do you have a list of early vs. late 128 head casting numbers on hand for me to compare mine with? Mine simply reads 5958906 (no 128Axxx prefix) & the production date stamp shows January 1983.

 

[fiatfactory]

128AR manifold is a real 128 Rally and European 128 coupe, so it flows pretty well... until you get into the late model manifolds from some of the 1500cc models (regata/ritmo) which have a slightly larger port size (27/28mm) the 128AR is about as good as it gets flow wise in a 128 configuration... I think Al's book (race world) makes mention of this in his discussions about standard parts and engine builders in Italy and mentions the part number (ends in 499 from memory??) but it's been years since I read his stuff...

And given your performance parameters, the biggest port possible isn't really what you want.

Worst flowing 128 manifold would be what we get on our later 128 3p's... easy to identify as the mount studs / holes for the accelerator bracket has the holes offset/angled (128ar manifold has them square and level) not sure of the part number off the top of my head, but can do some looking and find it in my notes ... it has tiny port sizing, about 24mm (from memory) ... probably what you get on the USA spec 128 coupe, it also has several vacuum ports on it...

Beta air cleaner assembly is what I fit to X19's as an upgrade, taller housing so it has a larger volume, and uses a larger filter (same as 124/131) so it has a greater filter area, all pluses. For a 128 the inlet snout will face right towards the radiator. In an x19 I usually cut the snout off and duct cold air into it from the LH rear vent, so something similar in a 128 could work.

Some 34 carbs (if they were fitted to a t/c Beta) have the fuel inlet tails that point the wrong way and angle down and almost clash with a sohc cam housing... you can swap the top cover and the linkage arm from a 32dmtr21 though so it fits much better...maybe investigate where your 34's fuel inlet/bypass tails point

If the head on your car has an 83 date stamp, it's a late combustion chamber / bridged water jacket type ... that's everything from 78 /79 ish onwards ... so head change won't light the world on fire, but with a little work an improvement in flow is likely and always good especially if the port air speed stays high.. and if the port size isn't enlarged and flow improves past the valve / bowl/ seat area ... this means the air speed has gone up, definitely what you want for your "spec"

SteveC

 

[davevoss]

Strada Intake Manifold 4409791

Hi Jeff, the intake manifold used on the '79-'80 Strada has larger port diameters than the 128 and the same carb mount angle, making it a great choice when fitting a larger carb.

 

[Jeff Stich]

One other mod I may not have mentioned in this thread is that I switched from the original 128 "stump-puller" 4.42 final drive trans to a much longer-legged Yugo 3.76 trans. I did this to enable more-relaxed highway cruising & a somewhat better rpm/mph match. Previously, I hardly ever used 1st gear when starting from a stoplight (I'd be shifting to 2nd only halfway through the intersection), & on the highway the car was screaming its lungs out at only 75-80mph. I had intended to use this trans with a 1500 swap, but now with the 1100 it's almost at a point of needing just a little more "oomph" to be comfortable in the lower rpm range (hence another reason for me to give the anemic USA 1100 a boost using Euro 1100 parts & a few other sensible mods). I'm still in the "break-in" period with the new engine, so I've treaded lightly on the go-pedal & only had the car up to 50-55mph speeds in the last 2 weeks, but I can already tell that the car is (will be) much more relaxed when cruising at higher speeds, which is what I've been wanting for a loooong time now.

A little feedback/update on this specific item...

The improved & more-relaxed top-end cruising with the new 3.76 r&p trans is AWESOME. However, with the driving I do most nowadays, my non-optimized 1100 just doesn't quite have enough grunt to pull this 3.76 r&p like I'd prefer; both the off-the-line & uphill performance is disappointingly (& frustratingly) SLOW & the gearing spreads are all in the "wrong" ranges going up hills. Also frustrating is the fact that, even though I installed a new input shaft seal & gasket on this Yugo trans before installing it ("just to be sure it wouldn't leak"), it's now leaking like a sieve. :doh:So the trans has to come back out soon... :wall:

Seeing as how fixing the leaky trans needs to (will) take priority over my planned head/cam/exhaust (& maybe carb) upgrade-swap, & even my upgraded 1100 might still not have what it takes for me to be completely comfortable with a 1100 engine/3.76 trans combo, I'm thinking that I may just rebuild the old 128 trans with new synchros/bearings/etc. & replace the 4.42 r&p in it with a 4.08 gearset for a "happier medium". This should make driving a little more comfortable (fun) again, & the other planned upgrades to my 1100 would likely improve things, as well.

I think the 3.76 trans would be a good match for a 1300, & a great match for the 1500 engine that I'd like to eventually put into my 128 (still working on that one). :2c:

 

[Jeff Stich]

Re: 128 2-1 downpipe

Cut halfway between red and green arrows ,so the resultant hole is approx 2" diameter and weld on 2" stub, the stock collectors are usually quite good internally, but it depends on the manufacturer, just get rid of the tiny pipe (1,5 inch I think) and it will work well.

While responding to Karfrik's current post about the Yugo 4-2-1 exhaust manifold/downpipe assemblies, two of the photos I took for that discussion reminded me of this one.

In particular, where to cut my 128 2-1 downpipe & add on a short section of 2" pipe (as noted above). These pics show my manifold & downpipe, with the black line denoting where I'll likely cut the collector "Y" pipe:




The dark black line drawn across the "Y" collector is where the outer diameter of the "Y" is exactly 2" (minus the horizontal seam on each side). This is where I'd cut, then add a short section of 2" pipe, which will be followed with a steel-mesh flex joint, & 2" exhaust pipe from there on back towards the back of the car. Right?