Converting FI to dual Webers

Agreed that EFI has lots to recommend it but it is entirely possible that the OP simply just *wants* to run dual carbs. For those of us who have enjoyed the sounds generated by multi-carb setups sometime in our past they still hold great appeal. I'm using EFI on the current project but I still can't bring myself to sell the dual DCNFs I've got stashed away, just in case I decide to do a period-correct restoration of the '76.

///Mike
 
I know what you mean.

My 36 DCNF set up with manifold is sitting in my basement.

Kind of hard to sell it after all these years.

A carb engine you can push start it. FI, no power, no starting either.

TonyK.

Grimsby Ontario Canada.
 
HAHAHA...

Yeah Tony... see my last comment to Bob (entitled "Bob...") in his overheating rant...

I suggested a project he might consider versus trying to cool his operating temperature another 10 degrees... and then told him to CONVINCE you to build it for him!

And you are welcome BTW... you inspire the rest of us with your skill and execution... and I am serious!
 
Agreed that EFI has lots to recommend it but it is entirely possible that the OP simply just *wants* to run dual carbs. For those of us who have enjoyed the sounds generated by multi-carb setups sometime in our past they still hold great appeal.
///Mike


Precisely, Mike.

I had a PBS stroker with a dual 40 DCNF setup in a '76, and would like to re-create that sound as much as possible when I get back into an X1/9. Can't get it out of my head; it's addictive.

I suppose if I were to eventually find a mint-condition, all-original FI model then I might rethink the conversion to Webers, but I'd have to at least make sure I'm not giving up much power by staying with the FI.

Larry
 
I've push-started plenty of F.I. cars...

No reason it wouldn't work, unless the fuel pressure doesn't hold.
 
... WAS ONCE 30 years... but Arnold screwed us over by now requiring ALL 1976 cars and newer to pass smog every two years. They also must use ALL stock componants... which are now no longer manufactured and rarely available. (A K&N air filter is cause to fail the "visual" inspection.) And no rolling exemptions...

I have TWO WORDS for him and it ain't Happy Birthday...

Tony,

And what is worse is I don't think the smog rules in place will ever roll back :( - seriously sucks.
 
I'd have to at least make sure I'm not giving up much power by staying with the FI.

I think you could make at least as much power with EFI as you could with carbs if you're willing to go to the effort of setting it up correctly.

The down side to using EFI on our cars is that it requires a certain amount of fabrication and customization, whereas Webers will pretty much bolt on with very little effort.

The up side is that once you have a well-engineered EFI setup in place you can tune and adapt it to various conditions with very little effort, whereas you'd need a box full of parts to change the tuning on the Webers.

You can get every bit of the performance of the Webers, and even the sound, out of a righteous EFI configuration. You'll spend more time and money going in, but in the long run you'd probably break even unless you already have access to a pile of chokes and jets.

Then again, most folks don't go to the trouble and expense of properly tuning out a carb setup. In that case, dual carbs are a lot easier than a trick EFI setup.

Cheers,

///Mike
 
I think you could make at least as much power with EFI as you could with carbs if you're willing to go to the effort of setting it up correctly.

Mike,

When you say "setting it up correctly" do you mean using Mega Squirt? I've read a little about this but have no experience with it and am not an EE; how complicated does this get?

In order to "properly set up" the EFI for use with a 40/80 cam and 10:1 CR would I be able to retain the stock log-type intake manifold and MAF, thereby maintaining stock appearance or would I need to fabricate a special intake setup?

Please point me to a previous thread, if this has been discussed already.

Thanks!

Larry
 
By "correctly set up" I meant using mechanical components appropriate for your motor, and tuning correctly.

There are a number of good choices in aftermarket EMSs, of which Megasquirt is certainly the most popular, presumably primarily because of its price. When Megasquirt entered the market there were very few EMSs offered, and those that were available were rather pricey. Megasquirt literally brought programmable EMSs to the masses. There are quite a few more options now, so it's much easier to find something that meets your specific goals. FWIW, the Autronic units look to be very interesting, although they are significantly more expensive than Megasquirt.

Just to clarify, the X1/9 EFI (Bosch L-Jetronics) uses an airflow meter (AFM), not a mass airflow meter (MAF). AFM is old technology, but MAF is used on virtually every injected car made today, including most of the top line exotics. IMO it is an excellent means of measuring airflow, although most DIYers seem to use MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure).

Some Xwebers are running 40/80 or wilder cams with the stock AFM, although most of them will admit it's not ideal. AFM uses a spring loaded plate to measure airflow. That plate pulsates with the intake reversion caused by a high-overlap cam, which presents a number of problems at lower RPM.

On top of that, the AFM literally presents a "barn door" to the column of air moving through the intake tract. This interruption of the intake charge inertia has a large detrimental effect on power output, particularly torque-- the engine is not only being strangled, but much of the "inertial supercharging" effect of intake resonances is negated. IMO, that is the single biggest drawback of the stock injection system.

It is entirely possible to use the original injection components in conjunction with an aftermarket controller, but the AFM would obviate most of the advantages offered by the programmable EMS.

However, you could either replace the AFM with a MAF (my preferred solution) or remove it and use a MAP or other means of measuring airflow, but still retain the rest of the original components (other than perhaps injectors), and integrate that with the aftermarket EMS of your choice. This would remove the intake obstruction presented by the AFM, which would result in instant power gains all by itself. It would also solve many of the problems presented by a more aggressive camshaft, at least with regard to the EMS.

My own plan is to do just that initially, in order to create a good, simple base mechanical installation so we can test out and become familiar with the particular EMS we'll be using. Once I'm comfortable with how it all works I hope to move to an individual throttle body (ITB) arrangement, both for the extra power and for the sound. I intend to use a MAF for both arrangements because I prefer the advantages it offers.

I have no data to support the following statement, so take it with a rather large grain of salt, but I suspect that a well tuned aftermarket EMS using MAF and running through a nicely ported, port matched, and polished stock plenum/runners would probably yield roughly as much power as the average DCNF setup. A well tuned DCNF installation or, better yet, a pair of DCOEs, would likely make a decent amount more power. But that's why my ultimate plan includes ITBs.

I almost hesitate to include the above paragraph since it's unsupported and presumably controversial, but I do so to illustrate my belief that the limitations in the stock injection system are not as great as they might seem, at least with regard to lower RPM street engines.

Hope that helps.

Regards,

///Mike
 
Thanks Mike; it helps a bunch.

I didn't know FI X1/9s used AFMs. I have an '85 BMW 635 which also has an AFM; lots of BMW guys switch over to an MAF for exactly the reasons you present. However, some die-hard BMW techs I've spoken with claim the stock AFM works fine and is more reliable than the MAF conversions. Whether that's true I don't know but it's easy to see the advantages of getting that proverbial "barn door" out of the intake tract.


The only problem I see with all this EFI tuning is that it seems to make the X1/9 a more complex car, which is not the way it stared out its mission in life. One of the beauties of old-school Webers is their relative simplicity; no confounding electronics so anyone who's handy with wrenches can work on them and parts will probably be available for a long time. That's just MHO though; I prefer to keep things simple. My 635 is a great touring car but I'd probably like it better if it had three sidedraft carbs, no onboard computer, no power windows, power seats, outside temperature sensor, etc. etc.
 
I understand completely Larry. I'm an old school kinda guy myself. My experience with Webers has been very good, provided the installation is done right to begin with. They probably require a bit more maintenance that a good aftermarket EMS, but the nice thing is that most everything can be done with simple hand tools and in most cases you can probably come up with a limp-home solution, even if the car runs like carp. That's often not the case if an electronic component just up and fails-- the car probably won't run at all until the bad component is replaced.

You really can't go wrong bolting on a nice set of Webers sitting atop a manifold designed specifically for the X1/9. Personally, I would retain the factory pump and just use a good bypass regulator but you could also ditch the entire supply system and fit a lower pressure pump. I would suggest using a rotary type instead of the pulse style like the cube shaped Facets. You'll probably still need a regulator though-- Webers actually seem to prefer pretty low pressure.

The real trick is getting them tuned well. For that you'll need to buy some dyno time, preferably someplace where they're familiar with Webers. That can get expensive unless you have connections, but it's well worth the effort. The percentage difference between a well tuned engine and one that's haphazardly thrown together is huge. As always, the devil is in the details. Those big-motor V8 guys can afford to throw away a few percentage points of efficiency. Those of us with engines not much bigger than a Singer sewing machine need all the help we can get. :)

Cheers,

///Mike
 
Yep... but don't get me wrong...

I think EVERY car should be inspected YEARLY, and real PROOF of insurance and its MECHANICAL condition, as well as the CITIZENSHIP of its owner be provided. Regardless of the age of the car... or the driver!

I know now that there are ways that the car can be made to run cleaner and more efficiently without the need to install OEM equipment. Hell, we now even have issues (C.Obert has details) over the catalytic converters hat can be installed.

I think the powers that be have demostrated their inability to think clearly, and their true intentions are NOT necessarily the concern for air quality... when they will fail a car because of an aftermarket air filter.

It was true back in the 60's when Pat Brown was Governor and his family owned a good share of the aftermarket Smog Control business that required all cars to have closed crankcase devices installed... and I believe its true now also.

HA!
 
One of the things I love about this forum is that you guys don't spend much time discussing the best waxes and polishes to use, like they do on some other car forums I frequent; you're more into real performance. I'm learning a lot here, and am grateful for all this valuable info which I'm saving. :thumbsup:
 
EFI MegaSquirt.

Running a 40-80 camshaft does not allow the use of a Map based table in MegaSquirt. Since the flexability in the system is huge I was forced to switch to a Throttle Posistion Switch based program. I did install a smoother if you look at the pictures made from a fuel filter but that too has short comings. In a word LAG. The bleeding of the pressure influences the duration of the injectors. TPS map allows a very smooth idle. One of the problems with changing the camshaft is that the stock Bosch system cannot compinsate for the lumpy idle pulses and the idle will be poor. The MegaSquirt will give you real time information and allow it to be tuned on the go with a driver and passanger doing the tuning. The carb's are a stop and change at the side of the road and then on to a dyno to obtain the very best set up.

Lots of choices between carbs and FI. After setting up the FI I now realize how much a carb does maybe by luck and chance, but FI you have to tell it what to do and for how long. An example being quickly shutting the throttle, in a carb the vacuum goes high which draggs in more fuel as the engine winds down. With Fuel Injection quickly shutting the throttle causes the engine to die, you must set the amount and rate that the injectors decline back to idle.

TonyK.

Grimsby Ontario Canada.
 
shouldnt be any problem.

I have a 1500cc with a FI head and dual webers ! The manifold will bolt right up and cover the FI injector slots in the head. since your installing dual webers. I would recommend getting a good cam. A Delta cam a16 is good with webers. Here's a video of mine running:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poykGTbzclQ"]YouTube- Fiat X1/9 engine, dual Webers, delta cam and custom exhaust[/ame]
 
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Well... that's because we all use...

Meguirs products...

HA!

At least I do... their latest and greatest NXT wax is easy to apply and outshines all the others... literally!

Love their Aerosol Spray tire dressing also...

DONE... now lets move on to the GOOD stuff...
 
webers

check out this site : http://www.injectionperfection.com.au/
i know its an aussie site and i know the're are plenty of US equivalents
but this is the one i use to upgrade early twin webered cars to modern efi, whilst still maintaining that "weber" sound.
best of both worlds :)
cheers
pete
 
sensors with weber type throttle bodies

In reviewing websites, it seems that the only sensors that are listed with weber type throttle bodies are TPS. I am not sure how others could work.

Any other options? It seems that TPS only would limit the control over the FI.

Paul D.
 
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