[Opinions]: If a tree falls in the forest...

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Well, yes...

I have found that I am generally smart enough for most the things that come up in my life including this dicussion. That is why I said what I said. I have problems with PC too but in the context of the current issue, as to appropriate conduct in here vis-a-vis the 'turn-off' factor, perhaps the distinction between being 'forthright' and being rude should be discussed seriously by someone other than those of us who like direct talk without the frills. I don't suppose for a moment you think I am incapable of or shy of being very direct!:shock:

Just saying that if political discussions are going to be a feature here it may not be approriate for some of us to be setting the rules of engagement. I believe in proportional force in kind, but am not about to suggest that as a categorical imperative.:):)

I know what your saying and have no basic problem with it or you-but maybe we are not the right ones to be contributing to this issue.:nod:
 
OK

Well, I was agreeing with the previous poster, then followed it up with a statement of my own opinions on forum behavior. We don't get as much nonsense here as there are on other forums. I wasn't offering as a proposal. I will maintain my standards regardless.

I thought the original post was regarding the NFC forum being capitalized by politics. There are a lot of people who are reluctant to enage in political or religious debates. I understand that and respect it. There was a time when I was too. That's where the term "silent majority" comes from. I got tired of being silent. But not everybody wants the forum dominated by that subject. OK. Maybe we should tone it down some. Not everybody is as passionate about politics as we are. That's not wrong, its just the result of a group of INDIVIDUALS. That's why Baskin-Robbins makes 31 flavors.
 
Can't argue with any of that....

I think it is going to be a tough old row to hoe to 'discuss' politics in here without it descending into a fracas. Not too surprising given the polraized nature of politics in general or at least the polarization of reporting and comment. It seems to me that camps, both left and right, have been set up specifically for the purpose of taking pot shots at each other and they do so over a broad middle ground where ideology is less important than practicality. The folks occupying that ground are not only being turned off by the contretemps in here the last couple of weeks but also out in the big world. Voters are saying they have cooled off politics since last years election. Independents are even more wary of the whole thing than before. Young voters stayed away in droves from the elections a couple of weeks ago. Political discourse has become the fiefdom of media personalities(left and right) who are highly paid to make extreme statements in order to boost the entertainment value and ratings oftheir programs. The serious business of participatory democracy has been shelved in the interests of mere diversion. Moderation doesn't sell and isn't interesting. Who wants to really spend time slogging through the issues when FOX or msnbc is neatly arranging the rogues gallery on either side so that tomatoes can be thrown at them. It's the same here-the intensity of the clashes in here ratcheted up when every other posting started looking like a fair old Obama bashing(Gregory said as much and it made no difference). Well, that's just not going to be sustainable over the long haul.

This is just a ramble Steve, not really any direct response to you.:)
 
Well, you must recall...

he was instigating war, which has a way of disturbing some folks fairly profoundly. In the event it could be claimed that the criticism, however sharp, was justified. In fact it could be further claimed that an opposing view has the burden of proof on it.
 
As you say ...

"...it seems to me..." It seems to me quite otherwise and given there is no way to resolve this difference of opinion let's not even try.:)
 
YES HOWEVER

Hi Chris & Pat. You raise an interesting point I would like to touch on, about "left/right" as it relates to my larger forum question: the whole concept of what is NFC even for?

WE cannot go back in time to undo any of what was done back then. Believe me, if I had ever once in NFC had "MY WAY" and been truly able to "make it stick" at any level of moderation less than a flat out police state, there would not have been any Bush talk allowed either. Again not for it being whatever "side", I got overrun (not unlike how I've also been overrun in there when the "other party" is on top. Mods in off topic are hugely outnumbered regardless who's the sitting POTUS.) All I can do is keep trying to change the present and the future.

I agree that perhaps the "moderates" of Xweb in that "silent majority" "middle ground" etc should be the ones with a voice in shaping NFC moreso than the folks who are themselves more politically/ideologically "committed" one way or another. You guys (some, I should say, of you guys) seem too hung up over the concept of "augh! they are letting the lefties talk and want righties to shut up!" (or vice versa I've also heard many times), the bottom line is, we do not give a hoot who is on whose political team. We are talking about the whole scope of "how to even have this coexist with that" meaning politics with light hobby/ot chatter, to just boil it down. All the rest is fluff as far as I am concerned and I do not know that any of the other mods here could even care less which view is being put out there from a purely political standpoint.

It is not the view that is causing me/us grief (if so I could just be stallin again and delete any comment I may "just not like" including yours or someone elses if they question it, but no, thats not what it is about), it is just the perception from "outsiders" to the debate as a whole looking on in shock and/or alarm and/or disgust at the whole entire dynamic. They did it back then too. We have been struggling with this question a long time here and its just been sort of "status quo" for some time, but it cannot last, it must be resolved somehow if we ever want the whole "mess" to get any "better" for "John Q Xhead at large" who may not have any interest in political saturation of whatever stripe...
 
Can we not know?

Pat....are you a nihilist?

If we can't know, then we are declaring that "we can't know" is something that we can, in fact know. So....either we do know, or we don't know that we know or do not know, you know?

I believe that we can have objective knowledge of the worlds, and subjective knowledge of our own consciousness and, certain strands of continuity of the outside world.

This thread is highly revealing if you read the viewpoints. Take a piece of land. A farmer, banker, real-estate developer, and strip-miner all look at it differently.

Pardon...I'm just being too much of a philosopher today....or is it not enough....
 
where did I end up?

It is not about leftie gets to talk but rightie has to shut up (or vice versa)

It is about the whole tone of the room (back then and now) being such that that "silent majority" of more moderate users just take one look in there and bolt

Thats the essence of the whole "dilemma"
 
Also (VERY IMPORTANT!!!!)

PLEASE let me clarify one point amid all this "mess I have created" (note: I)

I never intended to come off sounding like I am blaming Mark Eric or Gregory for my own and/or others displeasure with NFC. Those guys are not at any kind of fault whatsoever. They are great guys, they do all they can here, and then some, and for that I will be forever grateful.

These guys "inherited" this whole "NFC problem" from ME. I blame myself for never having got it properly sorted out before departing on them. Which may also be why I feel somewhat personally obligated to table the topic myself.

Please do not misconstrue my being critical of NFC with my thinking the current mod team has anything to do with it. They don't. They are all three doing the best they can with the situation I handed them. I just wish it could be improved. That has nothing to do with them though.
 
what indeed

I was hoping that "by sheer force of personality"(? a phrase I overheard Duane using here on another topic) I might be able to swoop in and "swat the hornets nest" at a strategic angle, get the people who use NFC to ACTUALLY TALK FOR ONCE IN HISTORY WITH the people repulsed by it, in the same place, at the same time, actually see/hear each other on it, and hoping some kind of clearer "path forward" would ultimately result. People hate when I come in here and make "a stink", but in ten years watching this place the stink will blow over sooner than anyone probably thinks today, but what results will last a lot longer. If we have "nothing of substance" as a result, thats what NFC is going to remain in the eyes of the "other half" of the house (I dare say its more than half but), but since its probably been years (literally) since some of these people have actually all been made to pull up a chair and actually TALK ABOUT IT OUT IN THE OPEN like this, my hope, was it might lead to new insights, or at least a much broader awareness of what "one side" sees in the "other" and "vice versa". Once the "stink" dies down, I am hoping there will be some nuggets of gold panned out... I guess only trying and seeing will tell...
 
Maybe it has already died down,

I don't see much open warfare here right now! As soon as politics stops being the obsession, things should find their own level. In fact they look like they already are. Except for this thread there isn't anything goin' on except cars and music. And maybe we shouldn't be too coy here-Brad hasn't posted anything so half of Newton's Law isn't even operative at the moment.
This could be like Dead Man's curve around here-it was real bloody and now everyone will drive with caution. With one exception, I have a lot of faith in our fellows to adopt an acceptable attitude to just about anything and an outstanding one to everything else.:nod::nod::nod:
And if Brad or soeone else does start peppering the place with openly divisive postings then a whole lot of folks will have some good cause to politely say "...shut the f**k up..."
 
Great...

It's just like old times.....Mac's endless P.S. statments. I can almost smell the burning flesh. Mac....you DO have force of personality here!

We've had bigger stinks than this.
 
hah

Which is, exactly the "other half" of the "dilemma".. and why an outright blanket ban on politics always breaks down unless backed by hardline "police presence" to "enforce order". If its not the nonpols being repulsed, its the pols being bored stiff. Maybe I should just go launch an actual politics blog in my retirement so I can take all youse mouthy fighters out of NFC and leave it free to have light alternative passtime chitchat...?? Only trouble, I can think of, who on gods green earth would want to go hang on a political blog run by a moderate centrist? :confuse2: (then again, you're all HERE doing it... so...)
 
btdt

Quoted from myself from upstream, "an outright blanket ban on politics always breaks down unless backed by hardline "police presence" to "enforce order". So our choice if "banning" or "not" were the "answer" is, total free for all, or total police state. I want neither.. but if we allow it (like I did right before I left) it always ends up just completely dominating/taking over (like it has), but if we disallow it, then we need 50 more mods and have to start cracking heads, which sucks and is equally "un-Xweb". It is a tough knot...
 
WHOA there Nellie.....

OK, first I'm gonna apologize in advance because parts of this post are most likely going to offend someone.
The argument that the NFC Forum defines Xweb just makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. So help me to understand....
This is a FIAT X1/9 site right?
Whether Newbie or Regular, the people who come here have a specific interest in FIATs / X1/9s. Agreed?
OK, so Newbie19 finds his way to Xweb for the first time. On the homepage he/she is greeted with something like this (edited for brevity):

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Discussion Forum (21 Viewing) 1,044 Threads
"X1/9 General": People, cars, history, stuff, tall tales, good times

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Workshop Forum (12 Viewing) 1,278 Threads
"X1/9 Tech": Shop talk, repairs, mods, specs, info, how-to advice

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Events Forum (4 Viewing) 58 Threads
"X1/9 Events": Organize or discuss events, past present or future

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FS&W Forum (20 Viewing) 600 Threads
"For Sale & Wanted": Cars, parts, related items around the world

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NFC Forum (8 Viewing) 57 Threads
"Non-Fiat Content": Off-topic area, other cars, hobbies, interests

Am I to believe that Newbie19, with a specific interest in X1/9's, is going to bypass the most popular forums, those tagged specifically as containing X1/9 / FIAT content, and go straight to the least popular forum that specifically states it holds No FIAT Content?
Why?
What would make a person do that?
Crap, I was back for a week before I ever stuck my head in NFC and I think I only ended-up there because a forum search dropped me into a thread that was started there.
For the Regulars, I'm sure many would agree that Xweb represents one of the most valuable X1/9 resources in the English speaking world (or the semi-English speaking world for Yves' benefit :angel:) . THAT is Xweb's image. Regulars know each other, their attitudes, personalities, and passions. For a Regular to forsake Xweb or attempt to re-define it because some members like to discuss politics in a forum titled "NO FIAT CONTENT", when he/she should know the lay of the land, boggles my mind. If I were a harsh person, I'd say it's those people that you don't want in the community. Someone with that little tolerance, who would rather complain than contribute, and with that little understanding of an Internet community really doesn't bring much to the table in my opinion. Nothing that occurs on Xweb is out of line with other user groups that I belong to; in fact, I find it one of the most civilized.
Like I said, I'm sorry if this sounds harsh or offends anyone but damnit this is ou...I mean Mac's forum. Every member-driven community should have a place to kick back, let their hair down, and be themselves when they're not dining with the Queen (and when we are, let's make it Queen Rania of Jordan :thumbsup: - unless you guys know a hotter Queen!).
The last thing I'll say on the topic is this: If the NFC Forum isn't the right place for the non-Queen Dining topics, what about opening up the ZFC Forum - The Zero FIAT Content Forum? No, seriously...not the name necessarily but the concept.
Open a free-for-all forum. By free-for-all I don't mean a forum that allows for discussions including swearing, porn, terrorism, libel, Taylor Swift, and British sports cars but one that caters to the types of topics that seem to be causing all the problems in NFC.
The first time a user tries to enter the forum they are met with a landing page that outlines exactly what the room is about and gives them the option to abandon or continue.
Retain the NFC Forum for the more genteel members and topics.
Keeps the natives happy, protects the sensitive, safeguards the Queen and her family, and perhaps most importantly takes a load off the Mods. [/:bla:]
 
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