my car suspension height dilemma...

Kevin Cozzo

Kevin Cozzo

True Classic
When I redid my suspension, I wanted to lower it a tad in the front. I can't remember if I cut the rears or they are just sagging old springs, but I now have rubber inserts in the springs in the back (yuck)...For the front, I ended up getting a set of the KYB coilover hybrids that Midwest sells, so I was able to level the car, but it's way too low for my old ass...so questions
1)what is the original rear height supposed to be?
2)where could I find new stock rear springs?
I would even be up for finding some proper lowered rear springs only, as I know the rate would be different than cut springs. My memory is killing me here, as I think I cut my old rear saggy springs and they were waaaay too low (hence the rubber block spacers
Thinking I should just get some used rears stock springs and go from there, as they will already be "lowered"...never seen an old pair of rear springs that didn't sag as all the weight is back there
 
Ulix said:
Yes, make it the same all around.
Otherwise, used rear springs are fine. IMO, X1/9 springs don‘t wear out or sag much.

FWIW, euro 1500s ride much higher in the rear, so there are two „factory“ ride heights.
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Yes, Euro 1500 cars are set up to ride level, while the USA market cars for some reason were equipped with shorter rear struts that make these cars "squat" down by about 30mm in the rear.

Possibly to meet USA-specific rear lighting height and/or bumper height regulations?
 
Currently being discuss here:

Suspension Thread.

convert the X1/9 to MR2 uprights, realize all of those benefits and improve the X1/9s suspension geometry for performance applications without the effort required to convert to double A-arm. This is the most sensible suspension upgrade suggestion I have heard. Take it a small step further and...
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Bernice
 
I may have a set of stock rear springs if you want to run up here and get them. The problem is I don't know if they will be from a Scorpion or an X19. If someone can post the coil count for each, then I can run out and see what I have.

Scorpion springs might be more desirable to you, as the rate is a tad stiffer IIRC.
 
Dr.Jeff said:
WAAAAY too high. But not up in the clouds like the stock front is. :D

Another option, get the same coilovers for the rear so you can dial in your desired height all around.
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Yeah, these are front only hybrids, ..I should have just left rears alone...I'm sure I cut the bare minimum, but it was drastic. Really been looking at Vicks complete coilovers. but ya know it's just a street car
 
kmead said:
Given the roads around where I live, I prefer standard ride height.

Contrary to DrJeff, the king of custom, having somewhat generous suspension travel is a strong value in much of the US.
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Not just suspension travel, properly controlled suspension travel is more important than plain vanilla suspension travel.
Damper ratio, compression/rebound has a more than significant impact on ride quality..

Bernice
 
Rupunzell said:
Not just suspension travel, properly controlled suspension travel is more important than plain vanilla suspension travel.
Damper ratio, compression/rebound has a more than significant impact on ride quality..

Bernice
Click to expand...

Yup. Damper rates dominate "chassis" loads. The max force the spring will ever apply to the chassis is at full jounce. It's ONLY related to deflection. The damper, on the other hand, is directly proportional to velocity. So when you hit pot hole and you get a slam on the chassis, it's the damper, NOT the spring that generated the bulk of that slam...
 
Steve Hoelscher said:
Might you have put 1300 rear struts on it? Remember, the 1300 rear struts were shorter from the perch to the lower mount. So the ride height was lower.
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damn I didn't know that...or remember...it is a 77, but I thought I put newer strut assemblies, so I could use kyb stuts...I am trying to remember wth I did....but I thought that the new(er) kyb stuts only fit the later struts and that's why I would have used them...now how do I tell the difference?
oh my, the rabbit hole!
 
Kevin Cozzo said:
damn I didn't know that...or remember...it is a 77, but I thought I put newer strut assemblies, so I could use kyb stuts...I am trying to remember wth I did....but I thought that the new(er) kyb stuts only fit the later struts and that's why I would have used them...now how do I tell the difference?
oh my, the rabbit hole!
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You can tell the difference by the bracket that attaches to the upright.

The lower bracket on the 1300 strut is cut square at the bottom. The 1500 is cut at an angle. I don't have photos to share but maybe somebody else does.

I always put the 1300 rears on my 1500 cars to lower the rear and gain suspension travel.
 
Steve Hoelscher said:
Might you have put 1300 rear struts on it? Remember, the 1300 rear struts were shorter from the perch to the lower mount. So the ride height was lower.
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Steve Hoelscher said:
You can tell the difference by the bracket that attaches to the upright.

The lower bracket on the 1300 strut is cut square at the bottom. The 1500 is cut at an angle. I don't have photos to share but maybe somebody else does.

I always put the 1300 rears on my 1500 cars to lower the rear and gain suspension travel.
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Pic below. The upper one is a 1300 rear strut. The lower a 1500 rear strut. I believe both to be be USA spec. Note the "angled" bottom bracket on the 1500 strut. Not sure I agree the 1300 strut is shorter.....or lowers the car......

I think only the euro 1500 rear strut has a higher spring perch......

x19 rear struts.jpg
 
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Thanks for all the info...I'm not really looking to redesign my suspension, just want to maybe get it back to stock....some times you guys are over the top, lol....But still lots of interesting info...I knew I could count on the pit crew here...of course as soon as I decided to look into this, I developed an exhaust leak...took off the intake, and the freaking ear broke off!!! Lots of bad words inserted here
 
Pete Whitstone said:
I may have a set of stock rear springs if you want to run up here and get them. The problem is I don't know if they will be from a Scorpion or an X19. If someone can post the coil count for each, then I can run out and see what I have.

Scorpion springs might be more desirable to you, as the rate is a tad stiffer IIRC.
Click to expand...

Many sources seem to say that stock X1/9 rear spring has a free length of 11.5". Obert's web site even goes so far as to also say they have an OD of 4.85", a wire diameter of .482", and 6.75 coils. Thanks Chris :)

Info on stock Scorpion rear springs seems to be harder to come by. One search said a free length of 12.5". Another said 13". And yet another said 13.5"....

Nevertheless Pete......above should be enough to determine if the rear springs you have are from an X1/9 or Scorpion......

from what I can gather.....X1/9 1300 and 1500 rear springs are the same. But I would imagine that the increased rear weight of the 1500 engine and tranny, along with the added weight of USA A/C, EFI bits, converter, etc,.....would result in the later USA cars riding a bit lower in the rear.......

I agree with Ulix.....the springs dont really ever seem to weaken or sag with age. BUT.....doming of the upper strut tower....and compression/bending of the upper strut mount will reduce the ride height with age and wear.....

Kevin: suggest you measure the free length of your rear coils....and count the coils....to see if you or someone had cut the rear coils on your X.

I am not aware of any vendor selling new stock rear springs. But....decent used uncut rear springs are available cheap from Obert or MWB, or from someone here. Use them as-is, or cut them as desired. New lowering springs are available from several sources. I seem to recall MWB also selling good used spring that have been shortened and the ends re-profiled.
 
rx1900 said:
Pic below. The upper one is a 1300 rear strut. The lower a 1500 rear strut. I believe both to be be USA spec. Note the "angled" bottom bracket on the 1500 strut. Not sure I agree the 1300 strut is shorter.....or lowers the car......

I think only the euro 1500 rear strut has a higher spring perch......

View attachment 78238
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Those do appear to be OE rears and the bottom one has the angled bracket. Hard to be 100% sure from a photo but it does appear that these are the same lengths.

When I was building my '80 autocross car I measured all of the struts I had and found the rears to be longer between the upright mount and spring perch. And it was noticable when visually comparing the two. All of these were off us market cars. Specifally, I ordered brand new (at the time) konis and ended up exchanging the rears for the 1300 units because of the difference in length.
 
Steve Hoelscher said:
Those do appear to be OE rears and the bottom one has the angled bracket. Hard to be 100% sure from a photo but it does appear that these are the same lengths.

When I was building my '80 autocross car I measured all of the struts I had and found the rears to be longer between the upright mount and spring perch. And it was noticable when visually comparing the two. All of these were off us market cars. Specifally, I ordered brand new (at the time) konis and ended up exchanging the rears for the 1300 units because of the difference in length.
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Yes.....there is some confusion here Steve....but I think perhaps you are half right...but half wrong.... :oops:

I do think that.....from the factory....there were THREE different types of rear struts

Type A - used on all 1300 X1/9s worldwide. Yes...these had the "straight" lower bracket. And on the upper shock shaft a 14mm shank portion for the aluminum cone and pivot.

Type B - used on "USA": spec 1500 x1/9s. These had an "angled" lower bracket to provide clearance for the 1500 driveshaft flange. although some say the 1300 bracket has just barely enough clearance to be used. Although I guess not quite enough clearance for the fiat engineers to be comfortable. In addition, at this same time......Fiat re-designed the upper spring perch - I assume as a cost-saving measure - to eliminate the aluminum cone and pivot and washer and seal they used on the 1300 cars. As the rear struts do not need to pivot like the front steering struts do. So the upper shank of the shock shaft is different. You can see that in the pic above.

I DO think the bottom spring perch was in the same - or very very close - place ...on both these struts. And resulted in the same ride height. and can be interchanged if you use the matching upper perch and hardware and bits.

Type C - used on "Euro"' spec 1500 X1/9s. These were the same as Type B...BUT...had the bottom spring perch on the strut....moved up about 30mm or so. Resulting in a HIGHER ride height on the rear. Yes...this seems very odd...as one would think the raised perch would have been used instead on the "USA" cars...to meet bumper height regulations...and to counteract the increased rear weight of the USA EFI bits, converter, A/C bits......

It seems the same rear springs were used on all above....

It would seem the above even confused Koni.......Best I can tell....Koni - being a euro company - were unaware of the Type B strut. and only made Type A and Type C. See the pics below from my old Koni catalog.

20231019_110947.jpg

20231019_111008 (1).jpg


Which seemed to result in USA folks fitting the 87-2171 rear Konis to their 1500 X1/9 finding their rear ride height now about 1" higher...and scratching their heads.......which Steve you seem to agree with........As far as I can tell, Koni never made a Type B rear strut.......

As for other available rear 1500 struts....it seems that indeed KYB figured it out and offer a Type B rear strut ( #233004 ) here in the USA. Note they offer different rear struts in the euro market ( assume Type C ). Eurosport UK seem to have it all figured out correctly and offer all Type A, B , and C rear struts. Those here who have ordered other makes of rear struts from europe have often found they were supplied Type C struts with a resulting increased ride height......

I still reckon that ALL stock Fiat supplied USA rear struts - 1300 or 1500 - result in the same - or VERY VERY close - ride height. As shown in my initial pic in post #16. Guess we will have to agree to disagree about that :(
 
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