Abarth X/19 needs some parts
- Thread starter jjay911
- Start date
Pete Whitstone
True Classic
Is this the orange car from the PNW area?
The one with 165 HP? (still wanna see the dyno sheet on that one)
Anyhoo...
I assume you think it needs a better pump because there is more heat to remove. But the pump does not remove heat, it just moves the coolant to the radiator where the heat CAN be removed.
About the only thing modifying the pump would do is to possibly move more coolant (or move it faster, to put it another way). But then you may run into problems with it moving thru the radiator too fast, and therefore not having sufficient time in the radiator for heat removal.
If the car is known to run hot, I would go through the usual diagnostic steps before looking at the pump. If you are not sure if the car runs hot or not because you have not ran it yet, I'd just put a stock pump on there until you have a baseline. Anyhow, is there such a thing as a "performance" water pump for the SOHC?
Pete
The one with 165 HP? (still wanna see the dyno sheet on that one)
Anyhoo...
I assume you think it needs a better pump because there is more heat to remove. But the pump does not remove heat, it just moves the coolant to the radiator where the heat CAN be removed.
About the only thing modifying the pump would do is to possibly move more coolant (or move it faster, to put it another way). But then you may run into problems with it moving thru the radiator too fast, and therefore not having sufficient time in the radiator for heat removal.
If the car is known to run hot, I would go through the usual diagnostic steps before looking at the pump. If you are not sure if the car runs hot or not because you have not ran it yet, I'd just put a stock pump on there until you have a baseline. Anyhow, is there such a thing as a "performance" water pump for the SOHC?
Pete
abec
Wil
I think an electric one would be nice, take a bit off of the motors work load and get better cooling.
No one has ever advised me to replace the stock one when building my motor, so I assume it is up to the task... but as they say assumptions are the mother of all f*** ups, or assumptions make an a** out of you and me, or ... well you get the point
Once i get my X back ill come check this new ride out, the rubber hose just before the clutch slave started leaking.
No one has ever advised me to replace the stock one when building my motor, so I assume it is up to the task... but as they say assumptions are the mother of all f*** ups, or assumptions make an a** out of you and me, or ... well you get the point
Once i get my X back ill come check this new ride out, the rubber hose just before the clutch slave started leaking.
///Mike
'76 & '85
Unless you run the car on the battery alone (no alternator) then you'd actually add load to the engine by running an electric water pump. The electricity to run the pump has to come from somewhere and alternators are not 100% efficient, otherwise we could build a perpetual motion machine.
Like Pete said, the stock pump is more than sufficient if the rest of the cooling system is up to snuff.
///Mike
Like Pete said, the stock pump is more than sufficient if the rest of the cooling system is up to snuff.
///Mike
abec
Wil
Well, wouldn't you still reduce the overall load. Not saying the electric pump wont put strain on the alternator, and in return cause some load back on the engine. The load should still reduced overall though.
Add to the equation running a more efficient alternator, and it should be a significant difference. At least, that is my understanding.
///Mike
'76 & '85
Wil...
The only way you would reduce the load on the engine by using an electric water pump driven by the alternator would be if the pump itself consumed significantly less power than the stock pump. So the electrically driven pump would either have to be quite a bit more efficient than the stock pump or smaller in capacity than the stock pump.
Driving a water pump electrically adds two additional layers of inefficiency: the alternator is not 100% efficient, meaning it will consume more power than it generates to run the pump. And the electric motor that drives the pump is not 100% efficient, meaning the less-than-100% efficient alternator has to work even harder just to make enough power to drive the pump.
Drag racers frequently use electric motors to drive stock style water pumps. They do this because they do not run alternators (they charge the battery(ies) between rounds) so they are indeed freeing up a bit of engine power. I suspect this is where the misperception that an electric water pump reduces engine load comes from.
Think about it this way-- what would happen if you used an electric motor to drive the stock water pump on a street or road race X1/9? You'd have to have an alternator, right? So where would the reduction in load come from? If there truly was a reduction in engine load then you would have just discovered perpetual motion. In which case, you should just drive a big electric motor with a big alternator running off the electric motor, and build an electric car that never needs fuel. Sadly, that isn't possible. Incidentally, the many inefficiencies in the power generation, delivery, and charging system are never mentioned by the electric car crowd, but that's getting off-topic.
Bottom line-- as stated above, the only way to reduce engine load with an alternator driven electric water pump is to use a pump that consumes enough less power to offset the inefficiencies in the drive system. Even if that's possible, the gains are likely to be minuscule. And unless the overall system weighs the same or less than the stock system you will lose performance (handling/braking/acceleration) due to the added weight. There is no free lunch here.
Frankly, the X cooling system works just great when it's in good shape. IMO, fitting an electric water pump would be an enormous waste of time. There are far better ways to gain performance on an X.
///Mike
The only way you would reduce the load on the engine by using an electric water pump driven by the alternator would be if the pump itself consumed significantly less power than the stock pump. So the electrically driven pump would either have to be quite a bit more efficient than the stock pump or smaller in capacity than the stock pump.
Driving a water pump electrically adds two additional layers of inefficiency: the alternator is not 100% efficient, meaning it will consume more power than it generates to run the pump. And the electric motor that drives the pump is not 100% efficient, meaning the less-than-100% efficient alternator has to work even harder just to make enough power to drive the pump.
Drag racers frequently use electric motors to drive stock style water pumps. They do this because they do not run alternators (they charge the battery(ies) between rounds) so they are indeed freeing up a bit of engine power. I suspect this is where the misperception that an electric water pump reduces engine load comes from.
Think about it this way-- what would happen if you used an electric motor to drive the stock water pump on a street or road race X1/9? You'd have to have an alternator, right? So where would the reduction in load come from? If there truly was a reduction in engine load then you would have just discovered perpetual motion. In which case, you should just drive a big electric motor with a big alternator running off the electric motor, and build an electric car that never needs fuel. Sadly, that isn't possible. Incidentally, the many inefficiencies in the power generation, delivery, and charging system are never mentioned by the electric car crowd, but that's getting off-topic.
Bottom line-- as stated above, the only way to reduce engine load with an alternator driven electric water pump is to use a pump that consumes enough less power to offset the inefficiencies in the drive system. Even if that's possible, the gains are likely to be minuscule. And unless the overall system weighs the same or less than the stock system you will lose performance (handling/braking/acceleration) due to the added weight. There is no free lunch here.
Frankly, the X cooling system works just great when it's in good shape. IMO, fitting an electric water pump would be an enormous waste of time. There are far better ways to gain performance on an X.
///Mike
///Mike
'76 & '85
Actual benefits of an electric water pump
While an alternator driven electric water pump would actually consume more engine power unless it was significantly more efficient, there are some advantages.
1) Engine cooling is enhanced at idle speed-- assuming the radiator has sufficient air flow (fans) to remove the heat.
2) The heater will work better when the car is parked. Many engines have insufficient water flow at low RPM to keep the heater working well for long periods at idle. My Mercedes has an electrically driven pump to circulate water through the heater core to address that very problem. With an electric water pump that would no longer be an issue.
3) The pump can be left running after the engine is shut down to remove residual heat and reduce the effects of heat soak. This is quite beneficial on highly stressed motors-- particularly ones fitted with turbochargers.
There are actually other advantages if the cooling system was designed around an electrically driven pump. You could reduce the cooling system overcapacity and speed warmup times, for example.
But IMO none of those are compelling reasons to convert an X1/9 over to an electric water pump. If I was running a taxi cab in Alaska I might want one though, just to keep warm in the winter whilst waiting for fares. An X ain't a taxi though... ;-)
The only sports car I can think of that I'd consider fitting with an electric water pump is a 3rd Gen RX7-- you can't keep those things cool!
BTW, an electric pump would free up a bit of power on an autocross car, assuming you did not run an alternator. But without an alternator the car would be pretty useless for anything other than short runs.
///Mike
While an alternator driven electric water pump would actually consume more engine power unless it was significantly more efficient, there are some advantages.
1) Engine cooling is enhanced at idle speed-- assuming the radiator has sufficient air flow (fans) to remove the heat.
2) The heater will work better when the car is parked. Many engines have insufficient water flow at low RPM to keep the heater working well for long periods at idle. My Mercedes has an electrically driven pump to circulate water through the heater core to address that very problem. With an electric water pump that would no longer be an issue.
3) The pump can be left running after the engine is shut down to remove residual heat and reduce the effects of heat soak. This is quite beneficial on highly stressed motors-- particularly ones fitted with turbochargers.
There are actually other advantages if the cooling system was designed around an electrically driven pump. You could reduce the cooling system overcapacity and speed warmup times, for example.
But IMO none of those are compelling reasons to convert an X1/9 over to an electric water pump. If I was running a taxi cab in Alaska I might want one though, just to keep warm in the winter whilst waiting for fares. An X ain't a taxi though... ;-)
The only sports car I can think of that I'd consider fitting with an electric water pump is a 3rd Gen RX7-- you can't keep those things cool!
BTW, an electric pump would free up a bit of power on an autocross car, assuming you did not run an alternator. But without an alternator the car would be pretty useless for anything other than short runs.
///Mike
Pete Whitstone
True Classic
Another thought for JJ...
If the car runs hot (and has a hot engine in it) I would look at an oil cooler. The installation of an oil cooler in front of the rad did more to cool my race X than anything else I tried - including the installation of a custom $700 Griffin aluminum rad that looked big enough to freeze a bus.
The extra oil volume to fill the lines up to the cooler, and the cooler itself, don't hurt either.
Pete
If the car runs hot (and has a hot engine in it) I would look at an oil cooler. The installation of an oil cooler in front of the rad did more to cool my race X than anything else I tried - including the installation of a custom $700 Griffin aluminum rad that looked big enough to freeze a bus.
The extra oil volume to fill the lines up to the cooler, and the cooler itself, don't hurt either.
Pete
Dan Sarandrea (Phila)
Waitin' On Parts...
The really hi-zoot drag classes like Pro-Mod have electric pumps so that they can both dispense with the parasitic load of a conventional engine driven pump that runs all the time even when not needed, and dispense with an unnecessary parasitic load when it counts by turning them off during their runs.
TonyK
True Classic
Running Dual Rads.
I have the stock pump, but have dual rad's on my car. Primarly due to the mods done. I never over heat now. Stock rad is fed by the water pump, then it feeds the next rad in front of the stock rad and then back to the engine.
Keep an X stock and you will never have problems with over heating, but change the camshaft, compression and injection system, and there will be times that the cooling system, the rad just cannot keep up. So, my 87 X is stock and never over heats. My 79 is modified and now with dual rads never overheats.
Take your choice.
TonyK.
Grimsby Ontario Canada.
I have the stock pump, but have dual rad's on my car. Primarly due to the mods done. I never over heat now. Stock rad is fed by the water pump, then it feeds the next rad in front of the stock rad and then back to the engine.
Keep an X stock and you will never have problems with over heating, but change the camshaft, compression and injection system, and there will be times that the cooling system, the rad just cannot keep up. So, my 87 X is stock and never over heats. My 79 is modified and now with dual rads never overheats.
Take your choice.
TonyK.
Grimsby Ontario Canada.
///Mike
'76 & '85
Great advice Pete
I forget the percentage, but a substantial amount of engine heat is removed by the oil.
IMO, the best option in oil cooling is a heat exchanger that uses the coolant to control oil temp. Big pluses here quicker oil warmup, more stable oil temp (meaning you can really dial in your oil viscosity and not have to run such a wide spread of multi-vis oil, and much simpler (lighter) plumbing.
Might need a bigger radiator to handle the load of a true high-perf engine, but you'd likely need that anyway if you're making a ton of power.
I really like water/oil heat exchangers. There are lots and lots of advantages to them.
///Mike
I forget the percentage, but a substantial amount of engine heat is removed by the oil.
IMO, the best option in oil cooling is a heat exchanger that uses the coolant to control oil temp. Big pluses here quicker oil warmup, more stable oil temp (meaning you can really dial in your oil viscosity and not have to run such a wide spread of multi-vis oil, and much simpler (lighter) plumbing.
Might need a bigger radiator to handle the load of a true high-perf engine, but you'd likely need that anyway if you're making a ton of power.
I really like water/oil heat exchangers. There are lots and lots of advantages to them.
///Mike
OEM style water pumps: usual sources (Vicks / IAP / O'Bert / Midwest)
If going electric, look for a Subaru SVX salvage pump to test with. They used an electric h2o pump as OEM.
If going electric, look for a Subaru SVX salvage pump to test with. They used an electric h2o pump as OEM.
