Ballast weights

D

Dave Bassett

True Classic
Several people have commented on the very low weight of the 850's front end and the need for increased caster. I was told, but did not independently confirm that when GM revised the Corvair for 1965 lead weights were added in the front to even out the weight distribution a bit. Has anyone here done that on an 850 Spider? If so, what were the results? Thanks.
 
Dave Bassett said:
Several people have commented on the very low weight of the 850's front end and the need for increased caster. I was told, but did not independently confirm that when GM revised the Corvair for 1965 lead weights were added in the front to even out the weight distribution a bit. Has anyone here done that on an 850 Spider? If so, what were the results? Thanks.
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Early Porsche 911 (like 1971) had 2 6v batteries, one each under the headlights at bumper level. Other 911/912 may have had lead weight inserts behind the front bumper.
I am restoring a 1966 and a 1968 Corvair coupes. The only lead weight is the battery behind the left rear wheel and small weights to balance the wheels. GM convertibles, including 65- on Corvairs had cylindrical dampers at each corner in the engine compartment and front trunk to dampen body harmonics.

Adding weight to the front of an 850 is moving backwards. If your 850 does not handle properly, the first step is to find a set of the wider wheels which came on the 70-on cars with 903cc engines. Then, install matched 145R13 tires. Then make sure the alignment is set to the optimum point in the factory range.
If your 850 is modified, make sure the modifications match what Abarth did on his production OT1000 and OTS 1000 cars.
Random moves like wide sticky tires, chopping springs, and changing alignment settings because you think you know more about 850 handling than Klaus Steinmetz will likely result in a track only car which is unpleasant to drive on public roads.
 

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It's cool to run into another person who likes Corvairs. Either I was told in error or was remembering incorrectly. I had a series of them. Let me think: 1963 convertible, 1969 Monza, 1961 Lakewood, 1964 Spyder, 1961 van, 1966 Monza. That's it, I think.
 
My friend Dave Teppo is big on Corvairs, both my grandfathers had several of them back in the day. We had a few, our last was a ‘68 Monza Coupe, white. Great cars, especially the late ones. They both moved onto Novas, sadly a notable step down.

I don’t recall any of the Corvairs having a added weights. I know the early short wheelbase 911s did have 66 lbs of weight added to the front end.

I can’t see any value to adding weight to the 850, if you want to improve the handling consider finding a camber compensator for the rear and move the rear anti roll bar to the front. Have a read of Abarth Tricks.
 
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I removed weight by going with a light weight battery. No adverse handling noted.
Several vehicles I’ve read about over the years from Willys to Porsche have added weight but I think it was an easy fix to inherit problems . In Porches case it was NVH. I think all 850s could benefit from weight reduction.
 
Cars have weight added and removed all the time. More gasoline is heavier. Less gasoline is lighter. Adding a passenger is heavier. Losing that passenger is lighter. Go to a swap meet and put the parts you bought in the "frunk" and the front end is heavier. These changes affect ride, handling, and traction, at least incrementally. When I was a kid, one of our cars was a 1958 Ford "carryall" that was a panel truck with windows and seats added. It had a 292 CI engine (I think) and a four speed transmission with a "granny gear" first. It had plenty of power yet could not climb a very steep hill near our house in the wet due to lack of traction at the rear wheels. It was a cobblestone street in Mexico and very slippery when wet. My Dad carried around a couple of large bags of sand in the back for traction along with keeping the gasoline tank over half full. It helped.
In a very light car, a little bit of weight, such as a box of tools, should cause changes, for better or worse. I always carried tools around in my Corvairs. Not that they were unreliable. It just made sense to me to keep my car tools in my car. I have a spare transaxle taking up space on my garage floor. Maybe I need to carry it around for a while and see how that feels.
 
When Abarth built the 1300/124s (a modified coupe), all that was done was install a leaf spring with reverse eyes on the front and lowering (and stiffer) springs on the rear. The engine is a heavier 124 OHV and the battery was moved from the front to beside the engine. A radiator was installed up front. 5-1/2 x 13" wheels were used. Nothing exotic or otherwise was done with the suspension or anything else to improve handling. Carlo allegedly said it was his favorite modified Fiat to drive.
 
myredracer said:
When Abarth built the 1300/124s (a modified coupe), all that was done was install a leaf spring with reverse eyes on the front and lowering (and stiffer) springs on the rear. The engine is a heavier 124 OHV and the battery was moved from the front to beside the engine. A radiator was installed up front. 5-1/2 x 13" wheels were used. Nothing exotic or otherwise was done with the suspension or anything else to improve handling. Carlo allegedly said it was his favorite modified Fiat to drive.
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I had the opportunity in the 80's to take a test drive in a friends 1300/124. It was an incredibly tight handling car. If you could achieve something close to that, you'd be very happy. Don't get wrapped around the axle will all this weight balancing and castor stuff, you cannot do better than what Carlo did, but you can waste time and money and do much worse. I'm sure Abarth & Co spent many hours trying options and testing and came up with the best balance and compromise.

The 850 is not a baby Ferrari (that would be the Fiat Dino). The 850 was designed to be a cheap family car platform for a low price. As someone else posted, read Fiat & Abarth Tricks.
 
I think weight certainly makes a difference to the 850's handling and every bit you can shift from the rear to the front is going to help. My coupe is around 600 kilos. Most of the weight saving is from removing the sound proofing and replacing the glass with plastic. Alloy front fuel tank and radiator etc. Fibreglass bonnet and engine covers and some metal sheeting removed. I did have a stainless steel muffler acoss the rear and when I changed to just a hot dog muffler alongside the engine the difference in handling was immediately noticeable. I have a lithium battery up the front that weighs about 2.5 kilos and it's going to be replaced by an agm battery of about 7.5 kilos and I am not worried by the extra weight at the front. The handling problem I think is mostly from the added performance and the far better tyres etc that we are using with our 50 year old cars.
The front is very light though.
 

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ramona300 said:
I think weight certainly makes a difference to the 850's handling and every bit you can shift from the rear to the front is going to help. My coupe is around 600 kilos. Most of the weight saving is from removing the sound proofing and replacing the glass with plastic. Alloy front fuel tank and radiator etc. Fibreglass bonnet and engine covers and some metal sheeting removed. I did have a stainless steel muffler acoss the rear and when I changed to just a hot dog muffler alongside the engine the difference in handling was immediately noticeable. I have a lithium battery up the front that weighs about 2.5 kilos and it's going to be replaced by an agm battery of about 7.5 kilos and I am not worried by the extra weight at the front. The handling problem I think is mostly from the added performance and the far better tyres etc that we are using with our 50 year old cars.
The front is very light though.
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Thank you. I don't know but it stands to reason that doing small things to balance the weight could help these little cars be more balanced. As I wrote earlier, I'm going to start by carrying a bit of extra weight in the trunk.
 
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