Clutch cable craziness

P

pdxgeo

True Classic
New Info added - Clutch cable craziness

SplitPea (73 128 with 1.3l) has been really strange regarding clutch cables. The original one seemed OK but perhaps stretched so it needed a spacer to fine tune the adjustment. I bought a few new ones of the longer variety and installed one with just the single (perhaps 1/4" thick) spacer. I ran out of threads on the nut and the clutch would not engage so i added a plastic spacer between the round nut and the fork. The spacer did not seat into the fork like the rounded nut does so it wiggled back and forth causing the cable to fray and break.

Spoke to Chris Obert and learned there are shorter cables for 74 and later cars so ordered 2. Got them and tried to install one but they are way too short to fit between the firewall and the fixed bracket that the rubber grommet goes through. So the longer ones seem to be correct except they dont allow the clutch to engage even when the nut is maxed out. I added a bunch of nylon/rubber washers behing the rubber grommet and it seems to be working but what is going on? Any thoughts?

thanks
 
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I had to do the same thing to my Yugo. There is some freeplay from where the arm starts to tighten up. I can move it with no effort with my fingers.

2014-03-21_16-41-43_673_zps23c8ad3d.jpg


I'm running a 1500 flywheel, clutch, pressure plate and TOB with a 4 speed (ring gears swapped).

Jeff Stich seems to say that I should be using an 1100 TOB which is causing the excessive play. I was under the impression the TOBs were the same between the 1100,1300 and 1500 clutchs.

Or the fact I simply have the wrong style of clutch cable. The cable's I've been originally using maybe 128 cables and not an actual Yugo cable.
 
OK my appolgies about the throw out bearings but you did seem to indicate the wrong parts were the cause for the excessive play in the cable.

"""If there's that much free play (space) at the end of the cable, you've most
likely installed the wrong group of clutch components for the particular
flywheel you have."""

"""Also note there are 3 types of clutch cable, the difference is the housing
length, not the cable. First type is early 128 (no brake booster unit) with a
longer housing that mounts to the firewall using 2 bolts. Second type has a
slightly shorter housing that also mounts to the firewall the same way (for cars
with the brake booster unit). Third type has the same shorter housing, but
mounts to the firewall using a plastic clip (not 128, but many Yugos)."""

"""Get the correct parts for your car rather than bitching about a "crappy
design", & things will work right as they're supposed to!""

I did not bitch about the crappy design. I just ordered the parts for my Yugo and that's what they sent me. I don't expect clutch cables to last forver...

But what you order is not always what you get...
 
Well...

turbofiat124 said:
OK my apologies about the throw out bearings but you did seem to indicate the wrong parts were the cause for the excessive play in the cable.
Click to expand...

Yes, IMO using the wrong parts is the cause for excessive play in the cable. Including ALL of what I wrote in my post on Mira would've been most helpful to this discussion - like maybe the second paragraph (probably the most important part)?

"Early 128 & '74-only X1/9 flywheel requires the older thick-style pressure plate. Using a later thin-style pressure plate will give you the resulting need for a spacer (stacked washers) on the end of the cable to get proper adjustment. BTDT once on my 128 when I unknowingly installed a later 128 1300 pressure plate - I had to use a cable-end spacer & the cable tip kept scraping the side of the radiator hose just as you noted. Reinstalled a correct p/p & all was right with the universe again."


turbofiat124 said:
I did not bitch about the crappy design. I just ordered the parts for my Yugo and that's what they sent me. I don't expect clutch cables to last forever...But what you order is not always what you get...
Click to expand...

You had complained of the same cable issue in other threads - that's how I knew about your cable tip rubbing on the radiator hose; you had said it & I included my own similar experience in my reply.

The problem you're having is that the lever arm on the trans has to be pulled further back than usual (from its "normal" starting position) in a rearward arc in order to engage the clutch, right? Take the clutch cable out of the equation - a stretched cable would not cause this. You'd have the opposite issue of the arm starting its arc from a more-forward-than-normal position.

The reason the cable broke (frayed) is because with the spacer (washers) added onto the cable end, the cable itself is forced to act as a pivot (by flexing), rather than the ball/nut or little plastic half-moon piece that goes on the end (depending on model/year of 128/Yugo) rotating within the lever arm end like it's supposed to. You're constantly flexing & stressing that specific area (point) of the cable beyond what it was designed for. Add in a crappy electrical ground causing the cable strands to become brittle, it's a recipe for eventual complete cable failure (which I repeatedly witnessed for myself on my own 128, until I learned of & fixed the issues causing it).

A side-effect of the cable end being forced to flex like this is that the metal tip of the cable doesn't stay in a straight fore/aft axis relative to the car, but instead gets bent to the left (trying to follow the arc of the lever arm) & rubs along the side of the lower radiator hose. Do it enough, you'll get a roughly-sliced hole in the lower side of the hose (which explained why my 128 kept losing its coolant when parked overnight!).

Barring a freak occurrence of a bent lever arm or twisted engagement forks, the real issue at hand is the total combined thickness (height) of the clutch components, namely: flywheel + pressure plate (disc & TOB should be the same).

Early flywheel + early tall/thick pressure plate = no problem.
Early flywheel + later short/thin pressure plate = (this) problem.
Later flywheel + early tall/thick pressure plate = (opposite) problem.
Later flywheel + later short/thin pressure plate = no problem.

A similar issue happens on the X1/9 if the wrong flywheel/clutch parts are combined, usually on the 1974 models. But with the X, it becomes an issue of the hydraulics engaging enough or not (since there's no cable).
 
On a non-brake-booster-equipped 128 (which I believe the '73 to be?), you'll want to use the clutch cable with the longer black housing/sheath on it (this is what my '72 uses). The later type cables had a slightly shorter housing, to make up for the additional thickness of the brake booster mounting plate on the firewall. If you have a booster installed, obviously use the shorter-housing cable assembly. :p

From what you're saying regarding the clutch engagement issue, it sounds as if the 1.3L engine swap included the original 1.1L flywheel but with a later 1.3L short/thin profile clutch pressure plate installed.

To fix this, you can either:

A. Replace the 1300 pressure plate with the proper taller/thicker type 1100 pressure plate.

1300: http://www.fiatplus.com/thin-clutch-pressure-plate-pr-287899.html
1100: http://www.fiatplus.com/thick-clutch-cover-pr-279733.html

B. Replace the 1100 flywheel with a later 1300 type flywheel.

The spacer/stacked washers thing is a Band-Aid fix at best, & it causes other issues that only make things worse down the road (ie: rapid cable wear/failure, worn/punctured radiator hose, bent/worn/broken cable pin on the clutch pedal...).

Good time to replace that leaky input shaft seal, too? :grin:
 
Thanks Jeff. I think id swap the pressure plate before the (lightened) flywheel on SplitPea. I remember reading that post before so i kinda half knew my issue was something like that...
 
Thanks for the summary. I did not know there was that many differences in these components.

I ran into this same issue with an '81 124 Spider. I was swapping out transmissions and thought I'd install new clutch components while I was there.

I ended up breaking the already welded clutch pedal trying to adjust the freeplay.

In this case it appeared I got sent a wrong TOB (1438 perhaps?). The only difference I could tell was one TOB was thinner than the other. I put the old parts back in and problem solved.

Here is what I have in my Yugo:

1500 flywheel (from an 81 X 1/9)
1500 clutch, flywheel, TOB (I just ordered parts for an 81 X 1/9)
Brake booster (although I don't understand what the brake booster has anything to do with it)

All grounding straps are in place and no electrical problems. On my Yugo, the negative battery cable not only makes a connection with the body but the bell housing. And there is a second grounding strap that runs from the engine or transmission to the chassis.
 
Pretty sure it's a 1300 flywheel

Chiming in late here. Looks like you guys covered most of it.

The flywheel came from my stock, and I have pretty much only owned 1300 cars so I'm fairly certain it's not an 1100. I think I would have measured to be sure, but a lot of time has passed since then so who knows what John and I came up with. Totally possible he could have re-used 1100 bits. I have a low-res pic of the back of the flywheel but can only make out the last of the part number...

I thought there were differences between TOB's but it's been a long time since I looked at them. Is the part number the same for all of them? I only have a '74 parts book.

One other possibility is if John put an old clutch disk in it. The disk in my Rally is pretty old and I have to run the nut down pretty far on the cable end, but no washers or anything are required.

I concur on the difference between early and late clutch cables - the later ones should be shorter to account for the difference the brake booster bracket offsets the cable mount from the firewall.
 
For the 128/Yugo cables woes, with all the various flywheel/clutch/cable combinations, add in the worn out clutch arm shaft bushings, its worn shaft, and the broken bolt/pin that holds the TOB fork to the shaft. The broken fork bolt is not at all rare. Seen it several times. If you think you have all the correct clutch and cable parts, the clutch arm will be out of position.
Removal is easy. Well, once the trans is out. Drill a hole in the fork, opposite the factory hole, so you can use a punch to remove the broken of end of the bolt.
Order the proper bolt ahead of time, and install it even if the old one isn't broken.
 
well it's a year later and...

this problem persists. I havent had the small fortune its gonna cost me to have the trans pulled, check what i have in there, buy and replace parts etc but at this point the car is almost not driveable (AND Ive gone thru 3-4 cables since last year) sooooo, I'm gonna take it to a shop to have the work done. I will post the results of the diagnosis and eventual (hopefully) fix.
 
Transmission difference have anything to do with this?

I have a service letter from 1975 that relates to 74 - x19 and 128 models. In order to eliminate interpretation errors i will just show it here. Does anyone know if this is the SAME reason that causes the cable length mess? in other words since they changed the bell housing casting to remedy this leak issue (which I seem to have BTW) did they also create a monster of parts interchangeability?

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Cable wear...

pdxgeo said:
I have a service letter from 1975 that relates to 74 - x19 and 128 models. In order to eliminate interpretation errors i will just show it here. Does anyone know if this is the SAME reason that causes the cable length mess? in other words since they changed the bell housing casting to remedy this leak issue (which I seem to have BTW) did they also create a monster of parts interchangeability?
Click to expand...

No. This change has no relation to the difference in length of the clutch cable housing on early vs. late models. As I noted earlier (above), the cable housing was shortened slightly on later models to account for the thickness of the brake booster mounting plate, where the cable passes through it & the firewall. The two types of clutch cable (early vs. late) are the same length overall, only the outer housing (sheath) is different.

Whether your problem is due to having the wrong flywheel or pressure plate installed, or if the cable arm-TOB fork is bent or has a sheared bolt, the only way to fix it is to pull the trans & inspect said parts in order to affect a proper remedy.

That was why I stated last year that: "The spacer/stacked washers thing is a Band-Aid fix at best, & it causes other issues that only make things worse down the road (ie: rapid cable wear/failure, worn/punctured radiator hose, bent/worn/broken cable pin on the clutch pedal...)". :brow:
 
I understand completely...I did the same thing with my 128! After the 8th or 9th clutch cable, it gets to be a hassle. :grin:
 
128 clutch cable woes

I don't know if it is of any merit, but two things to look for.
one. were the tines on the clutch pedal bent on the install, causing the cable to work at an odd angle? or
two. a crappy ground between the engine and frame causing the cable to carry the brunt of completing the circuit?? (albeit long cranking)
working for fiat many years I have seen both.
I'll have to check the 128 shop manual to be sure, but you were supposed to remove the pedal to install the cable and since "flat rate" had become the norm, most of the mechanics bent the tines for the install.
also I think there was a TSB on the engine grounding and a fast fix ground strap that was available at the time.
I just don't wanna see you chase your tail and not put more on your plate..... but aftermarket pressure plates also put a lot of strain on the cable as the springs were so stiff
jes my 2 cents:geek:
mikemo
 
Hi Mike, thanks for the info. I checked the ground strap early on and actually added a second one for good measure. The changing of the cable doesn't require pedal removal, theres a sprung little fastener that holds the cable end piece onto the pedal. Pretty easy cable swap luckily as ive had to do it a bunch. I really believe its either the sheared "bolt" or the incorrect combo of parts or both. The trick is now finding a shop who remembers thus mess.

Heres a question for yall...lets say i have a 1300 motor and flywheel with the original 1100 gearbox. Would Jeff Stitch list of compatible part numbers still hold true?
 
Some more on this

Thanks to Brad Artigue, there's a scan of the service letter that pdxgeo mentions here: http://www.artigue.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/181-2.pdf

The X1/9 crowd will be interested to see that the cutover from old to new flywheel+pressure plate does not exactly match the cutover from the '74 to the '75 model year... You cannot assume that a '74 X was born with the thinner flywheel and thicker pressure plate. :sigh:

It's also interesting, in a bad way, that the service letter says that the clutch disk is different. The input shaft splines and the flywheel diameter haven't changed, so the only possible difference would be the thickness of the disk. Is it possible that there are two different styles of 4-speed disks out there? I've always thought the disk was common to all the 4-speeds.

And while we're at it, how do we tell the two flywheels apart? One style has a higher step from the pressure plate mounting surface to the friction surface while on the other the two surfaces are very close to one another. My experience was that with a thin pressure plate on a high-step flywheel the clutch wouldn't release even at the bottom of the pedal stroke (X1/9, hydraulic clutch)... I had to pull the tranny, install a thick pressure plate and then the clutch worked. (However, the clutch only released with the adjustment turned all the way out to the end, so there is some possibility that something else was wrong. I did compare the release arm to a known-good one so I don't think it was bent).

And finally: the service letter says you have to use the new-style pressure plate and flywheel with the new-style bell housing. That makes sense, as the bell housing casting is thicker. But is there any reason why the new-style pressure plate and flywheel cannot be used with the old-style bell housing?
 
That was my point in posting the letter and asking the question as well eric. if fiat is saying that specific clutch components need to be used due to this "change" in the casting couldnt is just add to the confusion of clutch cable madness?
 
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