<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2><TABLE width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-TOP: 4px" vAlign=top colSpan=2>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Spongy brakes after prolonged storage<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]May 24 2001 at 4:00 PM[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "k";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "g";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "v";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "d";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "b";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "d";n54_em = n54_em + "u"; document.write("mike engel"); // --> </SCRIPT>mike engel <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT> [/FONT]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom colSpan=3><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=3>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Hi all,
If its not against the rules I was hoping to get people's thoughts about a problem that I have with the brakes on my 1988 Alfa Romeo Spider Veloce. A little background......
Last December/January, I had some work done on my transmission (new synchros, clutch, flex disc, throw-out bearing, etc.). The shop had the car for about six weeks (believe me, you don't want to hear that story). When I picked up the car, among other things, the brakes were very spongy, but had not been that way when I left the car with them. I assumed that in the process of the tranny repair, they had gotten air in the lines. The problem was corrected by bleeding the brakes.
Because of other problems that resulted from the tranny repair, I was involved in mediation to resolve a dispute with the shop. During that time, I was not driving the Alfa (not wanting to change the facts of the case-thank goodness I have the X to satify my "wind in hair" addiction). It simply sat in my garage for about three months. Having recently settled the dispute, I took the car out on the road for a spin and noted that again the brakes were very spongy. The brake pedal travels long, but reaches a definite stopping point, and pumping the brakes seems to shorten pedal travel a bit. There was no leak under the car to indicate loss of brake fluid. Fluid in the reservoir is at the MAX fill line. So this leads to my question. Does anyone have an explanation for how my brakes could go from firm to spongy (presumably due to air this time as well), despite the car not having been driven in the interim? Is this something that happens to others who store their "fine italian roadsters" over the winter. I drive my cars year round so have never dealt with a car that has not been used for such a long period of time. Any thoughts would be welcome (except those that suggest the need for another expensive alfa repair job--those comments are just appreciated, HaHa)
Thanks in advance,
Mike E.
83 Bertone X1/9 (LOUIS)
88 Alfa Romeo Spider Veloce (DINO)
98 Mercury Villager (no name)<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Author[/FONT]</TD><TD>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Reply[/FONT]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "p";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "k";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "4";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "h";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "m"; document.write("Perry"); // --> </SCRIPT>Perry <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Like you said, good thing you have the X Turbo On nt
<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]May 24 2001, 11:13 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->`<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Mike Waggoner[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Master Cylinder?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]May 25 2001, 9:44 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->The whole pumping thing would indicate a bad master cylinder to me, although I can't see how bleeding would fix that. Maybe this problem just developed with time (or perhaps sitting was the last draw for you MC seals) and that's allowing air into it? The main problem I've had when storing my car is rust on the brake calipers, although that just results in long stopping distances until it wears off. Some kind of contaminant that produces gas could also be in there? Are you completely replacing fluid when you bleed?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "k";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "g";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "v";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "d";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "b";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "d";n54_em = n54_em + "u"; document.write("mike engel"); // --> </SCRIPT>mike engel <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->It confused me too....<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]May 26 2001, 8:05 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Given that the problem was originally solved by bleeding the brake lines, I didn't think that this was a master cylinder problem. And since that original fix, the car was not driven at all for three months, so I was really surprised to find the brakes soft again. When I brake, the car doesn't pull at all. Does this indicate a systemic problem rather than a problem localized to one caliper?
For my own education.....I thought that if the brake pedal reached a definite stopping point, the MC was probably fine and that any sponginess was due to air in the system. If the MC were malfunctioning, shouldn't the pedal eventually reach the floor with constant pressure? (NB-I am checking these things with the engine running to get the benefit of the power booster). Similarly, I thought that if you pumped your brakes and your pedal travel shortened, that this also indicated air in the lines rather than a MC problem. Since both you and Tony thought MC problem, could you correct the error(s) in my thinking please.
For Tony....I live in Nashville, TN. I just recently finished MD/PhD training at Vanderbilt and am trying to learn about repairing my cars my self. That is how I found this site (which has indeed been a god send). Steve Hoelscher and I have gotten together a couple of times to work on my Bertone. That has been really helpful to me (not to mention very generous of Steve). My Alfa is a 1988 with 65K miles. I am still at the stage where changing my oil or a fuel filter is a thrill, but I am making progress slowly. Something like rebuilding a master cylinder would probably feel like brain surgery, but I am anxious to try it. There is a local chapter of AROC here in Nashville. In fact, its hosting the AROC national convention in June. I am hoping to be able to go if it doesn't conflict with hospital duties. Thanks to all for the help and support.
Mike
Nashville, TN
83 Bertone X1/9
88 Alfa Romeo Spider Veloce
98 Mercury Villager<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "p";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "b";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "t"; document.write("Tony Natoli"); // --> </SCRIPT>Tony Natoli <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Two VOTES for the MC...<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]May 25 2001, 1:14 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->...or the feed to it.
You don't mention the mileage but I would suspect the MC seals are failing... they are a rather simple overhaul and the parts are available for a few bucks.
If you'd rather, buy another MC new... don't forget to "bench-bleed" (either of) them first before re-installing.
As for extensive stays at a garage... I think there is ONE I might recommend... but usually I do all my own work. That's the SPORT in owning a SPORT's CAR!
Where do ya live... there are lots of folks that like to lend a hand.
Best Regards,
Tony Natoli
1979 X1/9 with 148K and still steamin'
Santa Clarita, CA<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "k";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "g";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "v";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "d";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "b";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "d";n54_em = n54_em + "u"; document.write("mike engel"); // --> </SCRIPT>mike engel <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Please see note to Mike, above......<nt><!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]May 26 2001, 8:09 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start --><!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "v";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "p";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "u";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "h";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "m"; document.write("steve ambrose"); // --> </SCRIPT>steve ambrose <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Try this...<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]May 26 2001, 6:59 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Hi there. When you bleed the brakes this time (before any repairs), bleed each caliper just a little... see if you get any air out and if the pedal feels normal.
If so, it's the caliper(s)with seal that's leaking air.
If you have to bleed it a lot to get air out and improve the pedal feel, then it's the master cylinder.
Good luck,
Steve<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "k";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "g";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "v";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "d";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "b";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "d";n54_em = n54_em + "u"; document.write("mike engel"); // --> </SCRIPT>mike engel <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Muchos gracias<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]May 26 2001, 8:14 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Thanks a lot Steve,
I'll try this when I bleed the brake lines. The help and suggestions are much appreciated.
Best wishes,
Mike
Nashville, TN
83 Bertone X1/9
88 Alfa Romeo Spider
98 Mercury Villager<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "p";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "b";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "t"; document.write("Tony Natoli"); // --> </SCRIPT>Tony Natoli <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Wow... Thinking can sure hurt...<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]May 27 2001, 8:37 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->What Steve said was close to what I was gonna suggest after re-reading the entire thread and THINKING... what next?
One caveat though... If you do get air outta the system and you correct it and somehow ya get air in their again... I would suggest "wholesaling" the ehtire system. That is to say, rebuild or replace all seals in the MC and all the calipers.
If you just do one, then most likely you'll encounter the "week-link syndrome" and start replacing them one at a time... (like I did... once!)
Let us know what ya find... and ya might try buying Hoelsher a beer or two!
Best Regards,
Tony Natoli
Full-Blown American of Italian/Armenian/British Heritage!
1979 X1/9 with 148K and still steamin'
Santa Clarita, CA<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
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[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]May 24 2001 at 4:00 PM[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "k";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "g";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "v";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "d";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "b";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "d";n54_em = n54_em + "u"; document.write("mike engel"); // --> </SCRIPT>mike engel <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT> [/FONT]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom colSpan=3><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=3>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Hi all,
If its not against the rules I was hoping to get people's thoughts about a problem that I have with the brakes on my 1988 Alfa Romeo Spider Veloce. A little background......
Last December/January, I had some work done on my transmission (new synchros, clutch, flex disc, throw-out bearing, etc.). The shop had the car for about six weeks (believe me, you don't want to hear that story). When I picked up the car, among other things, the brakes were very spongy, but had not been that way when I left the car with them. I assumed that in the process of the tranny repair, they had gotten air in the lines. The problem was corrected by bleeding the brakes.
Because of other problems that resulted from the tranny repair, I was involved in mediation to resolve a dispute with the shop. During that time, I was not driving the Alfa (not wanting to change the facts of the case-thank goodness I have the X to satify my "wind in hair" addiction). It simply sat in my garage for about three months. Having recently settled the dispute, I took the car out on the road for a spin and noted that again the brakes were very spongy. The brake pedal travels long, but reaches a definite stopping point, and pumping the brakes seems to shorten pedal travel a bit. There was no leak under the car to indicate loss of brake fluid. Fluid in the reservoir is at the MAX fill line. So this leads to my question. Does anyone have an explanation for how my brakes could go from firm to spongy (presumably due to air this time as well), despite the car not having been driven in the interim? Is this something that happens to others who store their "fine italian roadsters" over the winter. I drive my cars year round so have never dealt with a car that has not been used for such a long period of time. Any thoughts would be welcome (except those that suggest the need for another expensive alfa repair job--those comments are just appreciated, HaHa)
Thanks in advance,
Mike E.
83 Bertone X1/9 (LOUIS)
88 Alfa Romeo Spider Veloce (DINO)
98 Mercury Villager (no name)<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Like you said, good thing you have the X Turbo On nt
<!-- google_ad_section_end -->[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]May 24 2001, 11:13 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->`<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Master Cylinder?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]May 25 2001, 9:44 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->The whole pumping thing would indicate a bad master cylinder to me, although I can't see how bleeding would fix that. Maybe this problem just developed with time (or perhaps sitting was the last draw for you MC seals) and that's allowing air into it? The main problem I've had when storing my car is rust on the brake calipers, although that just results in long stopping distances until it wears off. Some kind of contaminant that produces gas could also be in there? Are you completely replacing fluid when you bleed?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->It confused me too....<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]May 26 2001, 8:05 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Given that the problem was originally solved by bleeding the brake lines, I didn't think that this was a master cylinder problem. And since that original fix, the car was not driven at all for three months, so I was really surprised to find the brakes soft again. When I brake, the car doesn't pull at all. Does this indicate a systemic problem rather than a problem localized to one caliper?
For my own education.....I thought that if the brake pedal reached a definite stopping point, the MC was probably fine and that any sponginess was due to air in the system. If the MC were malfunctioning, shouldn't the pedal eventually reach the floor with constant pressure? (NB-I am checking these things with the engine running to get the benefit of the power booster). Similarly, I thought that if you pumped your brakes and your pedal travel shortened, that this also indicated air in the lines rather than a MC problem. Since both you and Tony thought MC problem, could you correct the error(s) in my thinking please.
For Tony....I live in Nashville, TN. I just recently finished MD/PhD training at Vanderbilt and am trying to learn about repairing my cars my self. That is how I found this site (which has indeed been a god send). Steve Hoelscher and I have gotten together a couple of times to work on my Bertone. That has been really helpful to me (not to mention very generous of Steve). My Alfa is a 1988 with 65K miles. I am still at the stage where changing my oil or a fuel filter is a thrill, but I am making progress slowly. Something like rebuilding a master cylinder would probably feel like brain surgery, but I am anxious to try it. There is a local chapter of AROC here in Nashville. In fact, its hosting the AROC national convention in June. I am hoping to be able to go if it doesn't conflict with hospital duties. Thanks to all for the help and support.
Mike
Nashville, TN
83 Bertone X1/9
88 Alfa Romeo Spider Veloce
98 Mercury Villager<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Two VOTES for the MC...<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]May 25 2001, 1:14 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->...or the feed to it.
You don't mention the mileage but I would suspect the MC seals are failing... they are a rather simple overhaul and the parts are available for a few bucks.
If you'd rather, buy another MC new... don't forget to "bench-bleed" (either of) them first before re-installing.
As for extensive stays at a garage... I think there is ONE I might recommend... but usually I do all my own work. That's the SPORT in owning a SPORT's CAR!
Where do ya live... there are lots of folks that like to lend a hand.
Best Regards,
Tony Natoli
1979 X1/9 with 148K and still steamin'
Santa Clarita, CA<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Please see note to Mike, above......<nt><!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]May 26 2001, 8:09 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start --><!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Try this...<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]May 26 2001, 6:59 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Hi there. When you bleed the brakes this time (before any repairs), bleed each caliper just a little... see if you get any air out and if the pedal feels normal.
If so, it's the caliper(s)with seal that's leaking air.
If you have to bleed it a lot to get air out and improve the pedal feel, then it's the master cylinder.
Good luck,
Steve<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Muchos gracias<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]May 26 2001, 8:14 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Thanks a lot Steve,
I'll try this when I bleed the brake lines. The help and suggestions are much appreciated.
Best wishes,
Mike
Nashville, TN
83 Bertone X1/9
88 Alfa Romeo Spider
98 Mercury Villager<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Wow... Thinking can sure hurt...<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]May 27 2001, 8:37 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->What Steve said was close to what I was gonna suggest after re-reading the entire thread and THINKING... what next?
One caveat though... If you do get air outta the system and you correct it and somehow ya get air in their again... I would suggest "wholesaling" the ehtire system. That is to say, rebuild or replace all seals in the MC and all the calipers.
If you just do one, then most likely you'll encounter the "week-link syndrome" and start replacing them one at a time... (like I did... once!)
Let us know what ya find... and ya might try buying Hoelsher a beer or two!
Best Regards,
Tony Natoli
Full-Blown American of Italian/Armenian/British Heritage!
1979 X1/9 with 148K and still steamin'
Santa Clarita, CA<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
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