suggestions for a cheap engine upgrade for lemons-x

bikesandcars

bikesandcars

True Classic
For the June Capitol Offense race we were down on power compared to the top cars. Even though our top lap time was within a few seconds of the best, in traffic we were getting stuck behind volvo's and other large cars with big motors (and bad handling).

Our team has been discussing our options, and if we can get an alternate engine in the car for an even trade I think we want to consider it. I like the original Fiat engine...but we've reached our development limit for the $ we have available and it's just not as competitive as we want.

I was thinking a cadillac northstar v8 would be fun...but I measured it out and it won't fit without extensive mods (just too wide).

The Honda K-conversions that Matt does are awesome, but too pricey.

I was thinking a used VW 16-valve might be a good swap... we need something cheap that we can pull the whole engine / tranny / ecu for less than $750 or so (estimated value of x19 running engine / transmission.

any other suggestions / examples?
 
If price is a factor, look into the Chrysler Turbo swap

Engines should be cheap if you can find one and I think the driveshafts may be compatible. Maybe someone with more info can chime in.
 
Pick an engine and transaxle that your team can service and can support in every way it will fail. What counts in LeMons racing is reliability and the ability to fix and support it when it grenades.

It makes little difference if the engine/transaxle is a VW or Kia.. what does matter is how much power, how reliable, un-bustable and can it be supported.

VW, Honda (D series, un-modified B series), Toyota, GM, some FORD and Chrysler engine/transaxles have not had a good history at LeMons.

http://jalopnik.com/5450420/results...lvo-alfa-saturn-the-most-reliable-500-beaters

Note that Alfa Romeo has a good LeMons race record which is contrary to the belief that Italian cars are FRAGILE.

British cars which is worshiped by a number of the vintage automotive media has proven to be at the bottom of the pile.

My ideal team and car at LeMons would be to get the crew from Eye Sore Racing to run a turbo Miata engine/mazda 323 transaxle_X1/9 chassis properly set up on proper wheels and tires. That turbo Miata engine has proven to be tough and durable (what do you expect when two of their team members are engineers at Garrett and one who is the chassis engineer for Mazda). It puts out nee 145-155 Bhp at the flywheel, put that in an X1/9 chassis that weight about 1500 pounds and it would be quite a LeMons car.

LeMons racing is HARD on all cars, much harder than club racing due to the duration of these events. The cars are run at the limit for hours on end un-like club events or track days where each event typically last 30-60 minutes..

I'll also note LeMons cars have evolved to being faster, don't break and more real race car than cheap heap racing.

Remember that LeMons Porsche 928 that ran at Sears Point? During a recent track day at Thunder Hill, that same car turned a 1:58:xx on race slicks.. this is a LeMons car..and it is not the fastest LeMons car in the series.

Bernice

bikesandcars said:
For the June Capitol Offense race we were down on power compared to the top cars. Even though our top lap time was within a few seconds of the best, in traffic we were getting stuck behind volvo's and other large cars with big motors (and bad handling).

Our team has been discussing our options, and if we can get an alternate engine in the car for an even trade I think we want to consider it. I like the original Fiat engine...but we've reached our development limit for the $ we have available and it's just not as competitive as we want.

I was thinking a cadillac northstar v8 would be fun...but I measured it out and it won't fit without extensive mods (just too wide).

The Honda K-conversions that Matt does are awesome, but too pricey.

I was thinking a used VW 16-valve might be a good swap... we need something cheap that we can pull the whole engine / tranny / ecu for less than $750 or so (estimated value of x19 running engine / transmission.

any other suggestions / examples?
Click to expand...
 
Thanks Rapunzell... I definately echo your sentiments here.

Our X19 was running 3rd after an hour and within a couple seconds of the (then) fastest lap times, the car is definitely competitive for a top 10 the way it is (with better strategy). The cars we're up against just have too much power and also use aggressive weight-shedding strategies.

The problem really isn't open lap times, which I can get down pretty well, it's lap times in traffic. When the lemons x is in traffic it gets very tough to quickly get around back-markers and we ended up losing 5-10 seconds some laps being stuck behind folks. That's a much bigger impact than just a second or two in open lapping.

What I did notice at lemons is that most cars don't invest anything in suspension, there were a LOT of poor handing cars. Our car pretty much ate up everything else in the handling / braking department (besides BMW's which are very competitive). If we could just get 50 more HP out of the car we could actually contend for the lead with some luck :)

We'd like to get something that is cheap / easy enough to actually collect a spare motor / tranny, as that doesn't seem to offend the lemons judges (swapping motors, etc).
 
Hmm....

50 hp is quite a bit more.

Well, you could always drop compression and add a turbo. I am constantly surprised by the power of the Uno Turbo.

Other options. Any of the FWD 3.1 V6 Chevy's which exist. Very under rated. Mine has over 200k and is still running strong. Best part is price, most people give the darn things away.

I would not recommend rotary as heat and RPM range are killers.

What about the Fiero V6? Swap the entire rear end from one car to the other. Suspension, brakes, tires, etc...

If you want something newer, then I would stick with VW.

One other thought, there are a lot of Dodge Neon's floating around as well.

Good luck!

Eric
 
Home Brew turbo cars have a HORRIABLE history at LeMons with few exceptions. They always blow up after a hour or two of racing. Even the factory stock turbo cars grenade unless they are properly prepped for LeMons racing.

SAAB turbos get their boost lowered enough to endure the stress. The Eye Sore turbo Miata runs 6-8 psi boost and no more. This is done with a modified Mazda engine ECU with ignition timing control.

What is proven un-bustiable, totally reliable and high mileage engines on the road don't always hold up in LeMons racing.

Bernice

fastx19 said:
50 hp is quite a bit more.

Well, you could always drop compression and add a turbo.

Eric
Click to expand...
 
Have you considered the Fiat's 1.6 16V which is based on the old 1.5 SOHC block? This is the most reliable straight swap for the X. I have one for sale along with a early Uno turbo gearbox, pm me if you are interested.
 
I had thought about the turbo for a little, but the costs, development, and overall reliability were suspect.

I like VW because of the rear exhaust, same CV flange size, and general reliability (if prepped), but shift linkage would be tricky.

A 1.6 with a UNO trans sounds great, but how could I explain I sold my engine / transmission in an even trade? I'll explore the option but that may be out of the price range.

I don't know much about U.S engines (besides the northstar I have sitting in my driveway). I'll do some research there and see what's available. I wouldn't mind putting a ford / chevy 16V 4-banger or V6 in the car if the engine is deemed reliable.
 
i have 2

the first one would be to try a Subaru xt-6 turbo if you can find one and if it will fit but a long shot.
the second is a old dodge colt 1.6 it had 2 final gear ratios in it a economy one and a power one was like having 2 different transmissions in one box.
 
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