Uneducated man needs to learn about struts

bradartigue

bradartigue

True Classic
I have to admit I know nothing about struts, other than the X1/9 has them, and no car I've ever worked on before has. I want to slightly lower my car (which I assume means I'm changing springs) but also replace or rebuild these struts, which are original to the car.

- can they be rebuilt? should they be?
- are konis worth it for a street car?
- are the kybs any good (they aren't so hot on the 124)
- who else makes the parts or complete units (e.g. bilstein?)

I should delete the above and post "what the heck do i do with these struts?"

Thanks
 
Personally I have never liked the KYB shocks of any type. I have OE which I love and have Koni's to replace them (these are old ones from back in the nineties I grabbed from a car in the junk yard years ago)

I don't think your shocks are rebuildable. Depending on the year they are either sealed (later cars like mine) or they could be taken apart (like yours) and insert a new insert which are generally not available. Some have used VW Rabbit inserts (A1 bodied cars) in the replaceable units. I would look into finding some Spax struts which are available in Europe as an alternative to KYB but you may be driven to them...

New springs are the best way, some have cut a coil off the spring to lower the car. Grind the cut off when you are done to match the old spring.
 
I also have Koni Red's mounted, probably from the 80's. I have been told you can send them to Koni to get rebuilt. But I believe it is very expensive. Although I don't think I have any issues with them being worn out I often thought about calling them and getting a price. Let me know if you do I'm curious what they charge.
 
You will want to buy new strut top bearings for the front and strut upper mounts all around. Chris Obert worked with one of our now departed members, Mark Plaia, to engineer new upper mounts that would last as the ones from Fiat had gotten so old they broke down quickly. He also created the new strut top bearings which use a roller bearing assembly and work very nicely.

Chris Obert was paying Mark's widow a percentage for each set of each sold as I recall. Others now sell the same parts, I don't know if they have made the same arrangement in regards to his wife.

You may also consider getting a set of stainless steel strut doublers, another part Mark came up with to reinforce the structure of the X strut tower (if yours are belled upwards you need a set). I think Chris and now Midwest both sell these. The new strut upper mounts have longer studs to allow for the added steel thickness of the doubler.
 
I have never had an issue with KYBs and have used them since late 80s. I am pretty sure they used to manufacture their struts in Japan and now, as most do, produce them in "that place." I bought a set of what were marketed as Euro lowering springs from International Auto Parts out of Charlottesville. I suspect you know of them considering your roadster past. The spings did not need any alterations and once mounted lowered the car about 1 1/2". Both the KYBs and springs gave a better firmer ride. Never tested with any instrument so just a feel and take for what it is worth. When you consider the cost of new struts and new springs it is not a stretch to go for the coilovers offered by various vendors. Most are adjustable so you could dial in your ideal ride height. When my current setup is due for renewal I will probably go that route.
 
What is the goal for this chassis?

If it is a basic stock street car, the KYBs should be fine. On the other end, would be Penske dampers in custom made adjustable strut housings, about four figures of $.

Know every item done in the exxe chassis will change it's dynamic behavior.

Bernice
 
My opinion:
the KYBs work very well, are available and priced reasonably. I believe they work much better than on a Spider, they are a different KYB series as well. (Gas-A-Just vs. GR-2 I think).

For springs, Bernice asks the right question.

Cut springs work surprisingly well, but have no preload when the car is unloaded. Works in real life but is not sound by engineering and safety standards.
Lowering springs are better in that respect, but the ones I had do not "fix" the nose-high attitude. So you may end up cutting them as well.
The higher nose actually makes the car handle better, but most of us are so vain that we prefer style over ultimate performance (me included). :)
 
Me, zero sense of vanity, what the corner weight scales says goes and that is that, no alternatives which results in nose up.
BTW, nose up makes about zero difference while driving.

Speaking of struts, I'm in the process of working out how best to use Bilstein inverted dampers on the exxe. The shortest appear to be Bilstein B6 HD Shock 34-050224 intended for 991-1999 MITSUBISHI 3000GT. They are 36mm, re-valvable and has enough damping to control a lot more spring rate than the VW Rabbit (Gen one golf) struts.

Plan B is to finish up the strut housing for Koni 8611 all around.

Conversion to motor sports industry standard 2.5" springs on threaded spring perches mostly solves the problem of spring rate availability, poor quality springs, cost and more.


Bernice

Ulix said:
The higher nose actually makes the car handle better, but most of us are so vain that we prefer style over ultimate performance (me included). :)
Click to expand...
 
I don't think your struts are rebuildable. Just do like most of us in the US and get KYBs, they are fine for the street which I assume is what you intend. Check the upper mounts on the front and back when you pull the strut apart, some will be in fine visual shape and others will fall apart in your hands and you will know you need replacements. You will need to get spring compressors to remove the springs but unlike many cars the springs are not under a massive amount of tension. There are all manner of trick front upper mount parts but again for street use I think stock parts are just fine, it is certainly possible to spend a ton of money on aftermarket suspension parts for the X if you are so inclined.
 
I don't have a need for Koni struts unless the consensus is you need them to achieve good driveability (sounds like KYBs are fine). I agree about the KYBs on the Spider, they just aren't right. Doesn't mean the brand is bad, I just don't think the shock was ever fitted to the 124 chassis very well.

The various suspension parts make the X fascinating; you can tune the heck of out it!
 
Nobody has mentioned the VAS coilover kits which are height adjustable and still at a heck of a good price, $675 for a set of the base model.
 
I almost never mention a vendor by name... No I never mention a vendor but when my post said coilovers offered by various vendors it's kind of my way of saying check the web and you will find your answer in say Ohio or Texas... Further searching will take you to other states and or countrys. If you are willing to spend a few minutes searching and playing some word plays just about everything you would need will pop up and prices fall in a pretty wide band.
Regards
 
Hi Brad. Well struts are really just a shock with a spring perch welded onto them. Yeah, lots of cars use them. And yup, the X1/9 has them front and rear. And like any shock, they can get bent or rusted or leak.

You ask: "can they be rebuilt ? Should they be ?

Answer: well sort-of yes. I think your X is '77 ish ? Well up to about '78 or so, X1/9s came from the factory with "rebuild-able" struts that could have the shock portion of them rebuilt. There is a funky nut where the shock portion enters the strut casing. If... you undo that nut (actually requires a special tool that you would have to buy or make - but usually you can undo it by tapping the nut around with a drift ) all the innards of the shock will yank out of the housing. In theory, you could replace any worn/broken bits, and replace any leaking seals, fill it with fresh shock fluid, re-assemble, and voila you have a re-built strut. Well in theory that is....

In reality however - it is not so easy. Trust me on this one - if the valves are gummed-up/mangled or worn, or if the strut housing is bent, or if the chrome rod is not perfect (not bent, absolutely no pits/gouges/scratches/rust/wear ), this exercise is pointless. Best case scenario is that you only need new shock oil (easy to obtain) and a new seal kit. But new seal kits have been NLA for many years now. Although if you look hard enough you can probably find them. I think Obert might still have some. And once in a while they show up on Ebay Italy. But even then watch out - I think Fiat had more than one supplier for the original struts ( names like Wayasso and Riv ) and it is possible that the seal kits for each are different ?

Because of all the above hassles, and the high labour rates involved, way back then the common solution was to just remove all the innards and discard them. And replace with a sealed cartridge unit (also known as a strut insert). That just slipped into the strut housing and was secured by that big funky nut. Easy. It replaced all the moving parts - and the shock shaft of course. Back in the day they were readily available from many shock suppliers - Gabriel, Munroe, Sachs, Boge, KYB, etc. Even Koni with some nifty adjustable ones. By the way Bilstein never made an insert for the X1/9. But alas, pretty hard to find these days. Most suppliers seemed to discontinue them many years ago. Once in while they will show up on Ebay. The only ones I have seen on a semi-regular basis are the KYB. I think they made both oil and gas charged units. For sure KYB USA discontinued them many years ago here in North America. You can still seem to get them in Europe. Not sure if they are current production or just some NOS units still floating around. But even if you do find them, they will usually be pretty expensive once shipping is factored in...

You can now see why I said "well sort-of yes" LOL. For more discussion on this subject, see this recent post: https://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/front-shock-questions.31754/

By the way, starting in around '79, all X1/9s came from the factory with "sealed" struts. That is, the shock innards were sealed into the shock housing, and the strut could not be re-built, and a strut insert could not be used to fix a leaking shock. To fix, you had to buy the whole strut ( just the housing and shock bits, not the spring and upper mounts of course). More expensive of course. Back then replacements were available from Fiat themselves of course, and a bunch of aftermarket suppliers like KYB, Sachs, Boge, Koni adjustable, etc. By the way never from Bilstein. Of all these, only KYBs seem to still be available here in North America (only in a gas charged version, I think the oil version is still available in Europe). But at least they are dirt cheap and easy to get - just poke around Ebay or any of our Fiat vendors. Some folks here love them - some dont like them. Other than that, not much around these days. Once in a while, other struts pop up here or on Ebay. Even NOS genuine Fiat units. I think maybe Obert or MWB have them sometimes too.

In the front of your '77, you CAN use the later '79 on sealed-type struts in place of your re-buildable types. But in the rears, the later '79 on struts are a bit different. You CAN use them in an earlier X1/9, but you must then use the later type upper spring perch.

That should about cover the stock-type replacement shocks. And yes, some should offer improved performance. Choose wisely !! And one note of caution here - be very wary of ordering any rear struts from Europe. It seems...some of the euro spec rear struts had a much higher spring perch than the NA spec. Not sure if those cars had a shorter spring to compensate or exactly what the deal is there. But some folks here have installed them and found their rear end jacked up an inch or two. Not I think what you want.....

Of course, you can always change to coilovers - but that is another whole discussion......

Hope this helps. And by the way Brad, you really want some CD27s ?? I still have a set....

Cheers, Doug
 
"BTW, nose up makes about zero difference while driving." mmmmmmm, noooooo maybe look up roll couple.
 
rx1900 said:
Hi Brad. Well struts are really just a shock with a spring perch welded onto them. Yeah, lots of cars use them. And yup, the X1/9 has them front and rear. And like any shock, they can get bent or rusted or leak.

You ask: "can they be rebuilt ? Should they be ?

Answer: well sort-of yes. I think your X is '77 ish ? Well up to about '78 or so, X1/9s came from the factory with "rebuild-able" struts that could have the shock portion of them rebuilt. There is a funky nut where the shock portion enters the strut casing. If... you undo that nut (actually requires a special tool that you would have to buy or make - but usually you can undo it by tapping the nut around with a drift ) all the innards of the shock will yank out of the housing. In theory, you could replace any worn/broken bits, and replace any leaking seals, fill it with fresh shock fluid, re-assemble, and voila you have a re-built strut. Well in theory that is....

In reality however - it is not so easy. Trust me on this one - if the valves are gummed-up/mangled or worn, or if the strut housing is bent, or if the chrome rod is not perfect (not bent, absolutely no pits/gouges/scratches/rust/wear ), this exercise is pointless. Best case scenario is that you only need new shock oil (easy to obtain) and a new seal kit. But new seal kits have been NLA for many years now. Although if you look hard enough you can probably find them. I think Obert might still have some. And once in a while they show up on Ebay Italy. But even then watch out - I think Fiat had more than one supplier for the original struts ( names like Wayasso and Riv ) and it is possible that the seal kits for each are different ?

Because of all the above hassles, and the high labour rates involved, way back then the common solution was to just remove all the innards and discard them. And replace with a sealed cartridge unit (also known as a strut insert). That just slipped into the strut housing and was secured by that big funky nut. Easy. It replaced all the moving parts - and the shock shaft of course. Back in the day they were readily available from many shock suppliers - Gabriel, Munroe, Sachs, Boge, KYB, etc. Even Koni with some nifty adjustable ones. By the way Bilstein never made an insert for the X1/9. But alas, pretty hard to find these days. Most suppliers seemed to discontinue them many years ago. Once in while they will show up on Ebay. The only ones I have seen on a semi-regular basis are the KYB. I think they made both oil and gas charged units. For sure KYB USA discontinued them many years ago here in North America. You can still seem to get them in Europe. Not sure if they are current production or just some NOS units still floating around. But even if you do find them, they will usually be pretty expensive once shipping is factored in...

You can now see why I said "well sort-of yes" LOL. For more discussion on this subject, see this recent post: https://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/front-shock-questions.31754/

By the way, starting in around '79, all X1/9s came from the factory with "sealed" struts. That is, the shock innards were sealed into the shock housing, and the strut could not be re-built, and a strut insert could not be used to fix a leaking shock. To fix, you had to buy the whole strut ( just the housing and shock bits, not the spring and upper mounts of course). More expensive of course. Back then replacements were available from Fiat themselves of course, and a bunch of aftermarket suppliers like KYB, Sachs, Boge, Koni adjustable, etc. By the way never from Bilstein. Of all these, only KYBs seem to still be available here in North America (only in a gas charged version, I think the oil version is still available in Europe). But at least they are dirt cheap and easy to get - just poke around Ebay or any of our Fiat vendors. Some folks here love them - some dont like them. Other than that, not much around these days. Once in a while, other struts pop up here or on Ebay. Even NOS genuine Fiat units. I think maybe Obert or MWB have them sometimes too.

In the front of your '77, you CAN use the later '79 on sealed-type struts in place of your re-buildable types. But in the rears, the later '79 on struts are a bit different. You CAN use them in an earlier X1/9, but you must then use the later type upper spring perch.

That should about cover the stock-type replacement shocks. And yes, some should offer improved performance. Choose wisely !! And one note of caution here - be very wary of ordering any rear struts from Europe. It seems...some of the euro spec rear struts had a much higher spring perch than the NA spec. Not sure if those cars had a shorter spring to compensate or exactly what the deal is there. But some folks here have installed them and found their rear end jacked up an inch or two. Not I think what you want.....

Of course, you can always change to coilovers - but that is another whole discussion......

Hope this helps. And by the way Brad, you really want some CD27s ?? I still have a set....

Cheers, Doug
Click to expand...

Thanks for the detail, it really helps. I'd be interested in the cd27s.
 
Paul. Yeah, that was an awesome install. And was very inspirational. If I had your skills (and your lathe LOL ) I probably would have done the same. But I chose a different path. Instead of modifying the VW insert to fit into the Fiat housing, I modified the mother VW housing to fit into the Fiat. And also modified them into coilovers at the same time.

And Brad - just in case you dont already know this, the whole strut assembly can be removed from the X quite easily. Just jack up the car, remove the wheel, and undo the 2 bolts that hold the strut onto the knuckle, and the 3 little nuts that hold the top into the strut tower. Then the whole strut assembly can be wiggled out of the car. But CAUTION do not (at this time) undo the large nut at the top of the shock shaft !!!

But actually before you remove them from the car, and while the car is still on the ground, take a quick look at the top of the struts. You will see a large cupped washer at the top of the shock shaft. This should be perfectly centered in the large hole in the body. If it is not, it indicates that the upper mount is worn/distorted, and needs to be replaced. Not so easy to tell once the strut is removed from car.

Okay, stick the strut assembly in your vise. To dismantle it you WILL first need to compress the spring. Currently it is still being held under compression by the upper travel limit of the shock. If at this time you undo the nut at the top of the shock shaft, the spring will fly loose and usually leave an imprint of the upper mount on your forehead as everything flies apart !!!

So...first you must compress the spring. Beg/borrow/steal/rent/buy something like this:
http://www.harborfreight.com/macpherson-strut-spring-compressor-set-63262.html
Stick one on opposite sides of the spring and tighten until you fell the spring is loose and moving around. At this point - and ONLY at this point - undo the nut on the top of the shock shaft. This can be difficult as the shock will just spin instead of the nut undoing. You can try to grab the cupped washer with some vise grips (that washer actually has a slotted not round hole in it and the shock shaft has flat spots on it at that point). Do NOT try to grab the chrome shock shaft with vise grips as this will damage the shock. By far the easiest method is to just zip off the nut with an impact gun. Real easy that way.

Once that nut is off, everything just comes apart. The upper mount, washers, pivot bushings, upper spring perch. Lots of bits. Clean and examine everything.

At this point you can check the shock part of the strut. Grab the shaft with your hand and push it in. Of course there should be smooth and even resistance throughout the entire travel. Same with pulling it out. Decide on everything from there.
 
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