The great camshaft comparison....

5 cams down (euro 1500, euro 1300, Pittatore B22, Pittatore B22/12b and grind #87) so just 10 sohc cams to go

And yes, the 1500 euro cam is as good as what I always thought...timed up at .3 and .4 clearances it's 57/78 intake (I measure 9.83mm gross lift) @109 degrees ATDC, and 89/ 52 exhaust (I measured 9.83 gross lift on the exhaust too) @ 109 BTDC centreline ... so a CONSIDERABLE difference (for the better) than a PBS S2 or a Faza 35/75 ... in fact they don't even come close.

If I could figure out how to capture and turn the graphs into .jpg's I'd post some pics....

SteveC
 
Suddenly the price of Euro Cams have gone way up!

Thanks again Steve for taking the time to do this. I know how long it can take to do this correctly and having this as reference will be very interesting. If you could, I would love to understand what cam you think would best benefit an uno turbo. I have heard a stock FI cam is preferred, but am curious on your take.

Thanks.
 
What form are they in now?

using Excel, and I had a little help today to turn the raw data into some nice comparative graphs (a visitor from the USA in fact) but I'm a total excel novice, so if you can give me a clue how to capture the graph and turn it into a format I can post as a picture here I'll do it.

really I need to redo the standard cam... but I don't have a cam I know is from an EFI car... and I'm not 100% sure if it's the same as the carbed "emissions" cam which I have a few (usa spec cam which is what we got in our s1 1300's here in Australia) so it really compares, the B22 series of pittatores are interesting too... but I'll save that discussion for when I have all the measuring done and have something to visually represent this... lines of numbers will just make peoples mind boggle ... a line graph comparison of each cam overlayed (only two profiles at a time) is by far the easiest way to see the differences

SteveC
 
Suddenly the price of Euro Cams have gone way up!

Thanks again Steve for taking the time to do this. I know how long it can take to do this correctly and having this as reference will be very interesting. If you could, I would love to understand what cam you think would best benefit an uno turbo. I have heard a stock FI cam is preferred, but am curious on your take.

I'm not a "big" turbo guy Eric... and the most suitable cam for a turbo engine (just like for a naturally aspirated engine) depends on other components / design parameters you've settled on... IMO I would be looking for info based on some 8v lamprdi twin cams (like 8v croma / integrale etc) and punto GT sohc / uno t sohc ...

The alquati catalogue from 1987 lists four group A cam grinds for UnoT 1301, and they "look" like NA grinds from the timing ( eg. a V322/105 degree c/l /13 grind) 10.2 lift 45/75 75/45 @ 0.40mm clearance )... but without measuring a lobe it's hard to directly compare to anything.

SteveC
 
using Excel, and I had a little help today to turn the raw data into some nice comparative graphs (a visitor from the USA in fact) but I'm a total excel novice, so if you can give me a clue how to capture the graph and turn it into a format I can post as a picture here I'll do it.
SteveC

Steve:

One way is to download "CutePDF" When it loads onto your computer, it will show up as an available printer.
make image as large as possible on your screen.
Hit "Print Screen" button.
Open up new document in MSWord.
Use [ctrl v] to paste image into word document.
Use cue to print document from WORD. Select "CutePDF" as your desired printer.
It will prompt you to save as a .pdf on your computer under whatever you name it.
Now you have a .pdf of the image to do with what you need.
 
Well windows 10 has a snipping tool... never used that before!

lets try this and see what it looks like

Cam Comparison Capture 1.PNG
 
well my zero degree point is BDC of the exhaust stroke... I might need to shift the zero back 180 degrees so the curves display a little nicer, but this looks pretty good, thanks guys.
 
I would love to understand what cam you think would best benefit an uno turbo.
Clearly I am not a cam expert, nor a turbo expert by any means. But I can pass along what I've learned, although I have no way to verify it.

I attended a symposium (for lack of better word) on turbo set-ups about a year or so ago. It was held at the Precision Turbo factory with a panel of some of the top turbo experts from various sectors of the market. Each of the panel members gave a presentation followed by lengthy question/answer discussions. The whole event was amazing and very well put together.

The subject of cams for turbo applications was brought up a couple of times. Very surprising was the unanimous answer; it's not as critical as most think for turbo applications, not nearly as much as it is for a NA set-up. There is some value to be had with a lack of valve overlap, to prevent the boost pressure from decreasing too much. But the biggest gain is to help improve low end performance before the turbo spools up and the boost kicks in. In other words a "torque" profile for lower RPM's, more along the lines of a stock (NA) cam. And in fact they mentioned that in many cases a stock cam is good (this was not specific to any particular engine). Also it was said that 'radical' cams will decrease the overall performance with a boosted engine (sorry I do not recall all the specifics as to why).

I've noticed a couple of the aftermarket Euro cam specialists offer profiles for the UT. But their sites do not give much data about the specific profiles, lobe separation, timing, etc. Plus I'm not knowledgeable enough about this stuff to be able to interpret it very well anyway. So I do not know what they are or how they compare to anything else.

At one time I found some info on the stock UT cam and tried to compare it to the above mentioned aftermarket UT cams, as well as the cam for the 1500 engines we have. But once again the data was not in a standardized format (they don't use the industry standardized .05" lift), and I do not know enough to interpret things that way. Maybe someone else can help with that.


EDIT: My references to using a "stock cam" was intended to imply a naturally aspirated (NA) cam. The symposium discussions focused mostly on aftermarket turbo conversions of NA engines, not factory turbo systems. So the use a mild "NA" profile cam was suggested as a good starting point for a turbo conversion. They tend to have less valve overlap and are designed more for lower RPM usage, favoring torque over peak HP.
 
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but this looks pretty good
That's great Steve, thanks.

So just to help those of us that have limited knowledge (me), this represents the lobe profiles, correct? And the scale on the left is lift? What units is that in? For my education, how does that scale compare to what I've heard of as the "industry standard" of showing cam data at .05"?

Just looking at the curves, the intake and exhaust profiles appear to be roughly identical? Maybe you could offer a little brief summary of how to interpret this data (as in what it tells us), so we (I) can follow as more graphs come. Like what to look for to compare the cams. I'd appreciate that very much.
 
vertical scale is in thousandths of an inch, so 50 thou is the lower line... I have both metric and imperial versions to keep everyone happy :)

While I'm here I'll give comment on the whole "measured at 50 thou standard" that has crept into the cam terminology for our engines.

It's a totally meaningless spec.

it's is the industry standard in a market of pushrod V8 engines, where it actually means something. In a pushrod actuated valve train, there are MULTIPLE points of lash, and that method of valve actuation requires a slower ramp to gradually close up all these points of working clearances. i.e. cam lobe to lifter, lifter to pushrod, pushrod to rocker, clearance and play in the rocker assembly, clearance between the rocker and the valve stem...most of these are not just "pushing" they are also "pivoting" at the same time.

plus it give some meaning when trying to compare lobes designed for a regular hydraulic tappet, a solid tappet and a roller tappet... all of which have wildly differing ramp profiles.

In our engines the lash is only at one point (ok well two if you count the underside of the bucket to the valve stem, but clearance here is effectively zero as the bucket and valve spin independently and mate to each other) everything is in a straight line, and in service the lash closes, this method also suits much more rapid valve opening profiles.

The industry standard in a market that services high revving overhead cam engines (like Italy where our engines come from) is to specify the duration at recommended lash clearance, and generally lift at TDC, and a recommendation for individual I or E camshaft lobe centrelines or in the sohc's case a recommendation for the inlet centreline (as the LSA is fixed and the exhaust will "follow" the intakes "lead", just like in an OHV V8)

what matters to us, well there 's a few important points but in summary...

1. unfortunately simply knowing the stated open/close timing values of a cam lobe isn't really enough information to make any sort of evaluation...unless the maker also provides us with a few more clues... telling us what the overall duration at 50 thou is will add nothing.

2. we want to know where IVO and IVC points are (and to some degree where EVO and EVC are .. and I mean exactly (IVO = Inlet valve opening... IVC = closing ... EVO = exhaust valve opening, EVC = closing) now the specs that Pittatore / alquati and other Italian makers of cams quote is running duration at lash... when you see 40/80 at 0.4mm lash... that's where the IVO and IVC are if timed at that lash (and usually at "split" overlap unless a lobe centreline is specified) so when they say 40BTDC is IVO, that's exactly the point where the valve begins to lift off it's seat.

3. cam choice shouldn't be based on anecdotal "evidence" that someone fitted this cam to their engine and got XXX Hp, there are far too many variables to be able to simplify the internal combustion engine to that level... differences in head flow, static compression ratio and actual VE of the engine changes everything.

4. Cam choice should be based on what sort of revs you plan to be turning, and what sort of air flow you think the head is capable of.

5. If you study the motion of the piston in a four stroke internal combustion engine, the speed of the piston as it travels up and down the bore is not linear... it comes to a full stop and reverses at TDC and BDC, yes, but the speed of the piston as it travels in one direction up or down is far from constant... the reason is kinematics...which according to wickepedia is "the features or properties of motion in an object."

Anyway I am not going to go thru the math here... too much information for nearly everyone... but I can give you a rundown on what happens in the sohc engine, and then try and explain how this relates to cam choice. Piston speed is a function of the rod ratio, which is the relationship between the engines stroke and the engines conrod length.
In a 1500 the rod ratio is 2.007::1 (128.25mm conrod / 63.9mm stroke length) this puts the point of maximum piston speed at 77 degrees after TDC, and if you can get your 1500 to spin at 8000rpm, the piston at this point is travelling 27.5865 metres per second piston speed (instantaneous), the AVERAGE speed of the piston s travel at 8000rpm is just under 17.09 metres per sec.

so lets say "air demand" is driven by piston velocity and piston area...from around 70 ATDC to about 80ATDC the piston is imparting a heap of "demand" due it's high speed... in a 1500 at 8000 rpm the pistons speed is above 27m/sec from 67ATDC thru to 88ATDC... all that demand is being drawn thru the partially open valve, so IMO we want to look at what sort of air demand we have at this point around 77 degrees ATDC. One of the things that happens with a longer duration is usually more lift at this point, same with a cam with more total lift... at 77 ATDC more lift is more flow at the point of peak draw.

6. Opening the inlet valve earlier will generally give us more lift at the point of peak air flow demand...BUT... opening the inlet valve earlier and earlier (before TDC) is only really effective at much higher RPM (think VTEC) and low speed power is poor with this sort of valve timing...remember that at lower engine revs, flow past the inlet valve before the piston passes TDC is only going to be initiated by a pressure inside the cylinder (at the moment the inlet valves lifts off it's seat) which is less than atmospheric, the only way this can happen is if the exhaust gasses have been scavenged effectively... so if exhaust flow / scavenge is poor for whatever reason (port/valve/seat throat/header/system) then this will affect how well the engine behaves / performs as the inlet valve is opened earlier. At higher RPM the air flow speed improves, as the inertia imparted to the air column allows it to keep moving forwards even when the valve is closed (effectively "piling up" behind the valve head for a millisecond) so at high RPM the flow actually becomes "continuous" due to the inertial effects, so then the initial low lift flow and VE improves and power benefits, some people might describe this as the engine "coming on to the cam" .... and can feel, in extreme cases, like the power band of a two stroke motor cycle!

So in summary (for now as I'll add to this for the "ultimte sohc" thread) we want to calculate AIR demand at this 77 ATDC point and size the port/throat and most other parts of the inlet based on some number we get, an engine is after all... a glorified air pump!

Then based on the air DEMAND at around 77 atdc, based on the cam lift at around 77atdc, we work out the valve curtain area , the throat area, the port average cross section.. . we have an idea of the engines air flow cycling value (but the VE is never 100% of course, and at 8000 rpm a 1500 is cycling 190.5CFM at 90% VE) and know that the relationship between valve curtain area, port throat area , average cross sectional area of the port and the port air speed all have mathematical significance to one another, we can use all this to do a little math and figure if the cam is suitable for what we want to do.

But bottom line is, if flow at this lift, and this moment when the piston is moving fastest is really good... then the column of air gathers a lot of speed, even when the piston slows down and approaches BDC the column of air in the port still has loads of inertia and despite the piston reversing and heading back up the bore after BDC the column of air will flow virtually uninterrupted until the valve curtain area again becomes too small for the high air speed, the both port air speed and port flow drops rapidly after this point where the reducing valve curtain area becomes a restriction... so lift at BDC is also an important value for a cam, and I like to plot the lift values for each degree of lobe operation, and like to work out the valve curtain area / degree / lift curves and see where things intersect... that's all coming... it's all part of the reason why I'm going thru this exercise with the accuracy needed.

pittatore 77 grind / Alquati A16 has about 9mm of lift at 77 degrees, full lift 110 atdc of 10.35, inlet valve is closing quite rapidly at BDC but still about 5.75mm off its seat....

the actual IVC closing point is very important too (mathematically) as it allows us to calculate the (simple) dynamic compression ratio of the engine in question. Dynamic compression calculation is very much like the static CR calculation, this is a SIMPLE dynamic CR calc, other factors come into play to work out the actual running dynamic CR (which is difficult but not impossible to calculate/measure, but definitely a bit beyond the home tuner, but it's one of the things you need to understand to be able to make an informed decision about the best parts for the job.

A basic DYNAMIC compression ratio calculation looks like this:

Volume at inlet valve closing point is (remaining swept volume + minus deck volume - dome )+ flycut volume + ring land clearance volume + gasket volume + chamber volume.

Volume at TDC is (volume in gasket + minus deck - dome) + flycut volume + ring land clearance volume + chamber volume.

The stroke measurement for the dynamic CR depends on the actual valve closing point.

A recent Fiat engine build (a 1603 SOHC for an X19) made 109HP at the wheels and just under 120lb/ft at the flywheel, on premium pump fuel (no additives or boosters) 1603 cc, 11.4:1 static CR, 42/82 10.6 cam, 7.79 dynamic CR (in the build planning stage I was aiming for 7.8:1 simple dynamic CR) - zero pinging or knock or signs of detonation - close attention to details like SQ clearances. Very well developed head ports and valves / valve seats that flow in excess of 150cfm @10mm lift 28" of H2O depression put the VE close to 90% at the greater part of the rev range.

Can you tell me these sorts of numbers for any of the cams from the usual suspects? No because the makers / sellers don't have most of this available, and will probably look at you like you've got two heads when you ask, but to make an informed decision on cam choice this is all info we need... I've been thru all this before (the measuring part) but not to the accuracy I'm doing it to now, and I do these sort of calculations for EVERY engine that I build.

SteveC
 
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seeing as I've discovered the "snipping tool" I'll share a screen shot of the excel spreadsheet I got a friend of mine to write for me a few years ago... really helps with the math...calculates piston height / piston speed and does a few VE and turbo efficiency calculations just for good measure. What took me hours to work out years ago is a few keystrokes with this... it will be part of the "book" too.

Captureroughcalcs.PNG
 
Maybe you could offer a little brief summary of how to interpret this
Perhaps you missed the words "little", "brief", and "summary". :D I'm certainly joking Steve. Actually that was very helpful, thanks for adding it.

I realize that when you build an engine you have specific goals, and you are in the position to plan all of these factors (as described above), make the necessary calculations, and build the complete engine package accordingly to meet those goals. However the vast majority of us are hobbyists, with simple goals (it's a city street driven car), and what we have is what we have. By that I mean our car has an existing engine in it, which runs well but we'd like to improve it a little. Unfortunately most of us are not in your position of being able to completely redesign and modify everything as needed. Understood it is a "complete package" situation to do it right, but that just isn't always possible in our real world lives. So we look at a few things that are within our scope and limitations. One common consideration is changing the cam for something that will hopefully offer some gains; especially for those of us in the USA with the sad stock cams. With that in mind and after reading your important point summary, it is understood different cam profiles will effect various aspects of engine dynamics; e.g. the power band (RPM range), dynamic compression ratio, etc. Would it be possible to look at the graphs (from your cam assessments) and get a general feel for comparatively how each cam might impact a relatively stock X1/9 SOHC (from one cam to the next)? I realize that question is a gross simplification of the theory you have outlined, but it might put things into a clearer perspective for people like me with limited goals and resources. I'm not certain how well I was able to explain the question. And hopefully I haven't offended in any way, and it's understood this request is a positive desire to utilize all of the wonderful data you are gathering for these cams. ;)
 
I guess my thoughts are more toward the upcoming cams that Steve has yet to assess and plot curves for, in addition to the existing Euro spec ones. As this thread develops it would be interesting to look at the various graphs and get a feel how the accompanying cams compare to one another, relatively speaking. How one might be better suited for a more stock'ish engine, or another for a high RPM screamer, or for track vs street use, etc, just by looking at the profiles (graphs). For example, it would be fun to see how these current graphs (Euro cams) compare to one for the stock USA cam; something of a side by side comparison, to understand just how much improvement might be expected by converting to the Euro spec. Perhaps what I'm asking isn't possible, but along the lines of understanding how the graphs visually compare and relating that to what the cam does for the engine's characteristics.
 
I get the impression that just converting a US 1500 to Euro spec would be a vast improvement.
Considering it is a better profile than the well know 35/75 cams, which I personally really like, you bet.
 
Considering it is a better profile than the well know 35/75 cams
I will use this as an example of what I'm trying to ask. By looking at the "profile" (graph), you are able to tell it is better than a 35/75. I'd like to be able to do that, what do I look for on the profiles?
 
I will use this as an example of what I'm trying to ask. By looking at the "profile" (graph), you are able to tell it is better than a 35/75. I'd like to be able to do that, what do I look for on the profiles?

That's easy, if you overlay the two graphs, you would compare the areas "under the curve" ... the difference in this is the nett change in lift/rotation.

The other question your asking is "what's best for the stock engine" well unfortunately that's not such and easy answer.and comes down to a few of the points I tried to make in my "short summary" but I guess if I had to choose just one point it would be this one.

Cam choice should be based on what sort of revs you plan to be turning, and what sort of air flow you think the head is capable of...

I feel there are three (major) parameters in an engine that are tied together, and each really can't be considered without also considering the other two.

Head flow / compression ratio / cam choice.

If you change one, you MUST also consider a change in the other two to get the best result. So if the rest of the engine is stock... I.e 8.15:1 static CR, max 88CFM head port flow (which is what the stock port flows) then the cam choice needs to be based on these parameters. I've already explained about the relationship to IVC that ties it to the DYNAMIC CR of the engine so this is how cam choice and static CR become linked. I've already explained how nett lift at around 77ATDC makes a big change, but if you also know that the stock ports flow rate levels out and doesn't increase past about 8mm of lift, then you can figure out that simply the act of lifting the valve further at max lift will actually add very little to the engines output, as it simply can not use the extra lift (though it may well use the additional lift around 77ATDC and also "across the nose" when the euro or similar cams come into their own as they hold the valve around max lift for a much longer period of engine rotation)

Think of it a bit like an Algebra equation... change one value and the other two also change.

From the "ultimate sohc" thread...

##############################################################################################################################################
2d.) Limited compression and other compromises.

If your engine is compression compromised, you will be "behind the eight ball" in building Mechanical Efficiency (ME) into the bottom end. The only thing you can do with a compression compromised engine is to try and increase the volumetric efficiency (VE) as much as possible. This in effect is the only way you can boost the engines dynamic CR. Performance engine build improvements will build ME and VE, and bump dynamic CR. If your compression compromised, it restricts your choice of camshaft, because you need to attempt to still keep some sort of realistic DYNAMIC compression ratio. In all these theoretical examples, the ME, VE and dynamic CR are considered for a specific amount of engine revs. The VE %age can change considerably at different rates of engine cycling, which is why an engine can drop power at one point of the rev range, and gain somewhere else after any modifications...

Engine example A) Increase the static CR (an improvement in ME) and retain the same cam timing and other engine parameters, your going to see a bump in the Dynamic CR, and a bump in HP.

Engine example B) Retain the static CR, increase the valve open cycle in duration, keep other engine parameters the same, and generally your going to see a drop in the Dynamic CR, and a drop in HP

Engine example C) Retain the static CR, Increase the valve open duration cycle, change other engine parameters which affect the VE (like add twin carbs or free flow exhaust), and with some luck you might have altered the balance back favourably in Dynamic CR (by getting a greater mass of fuel / air in over the same cycle speed) and your likely going to see a bump in HP

But this can "stretch" out into the engine many end up with...

Engine example D) Retain the static CR, increase the valve open duration considerably (big cam) slow the port air speed at low revs considerably (big carbs) the engine described will rev to 8500rpm but it probably won't feel very lively, it won't "pull strongly" and it won't be any fun below 4500rpm. This is hardly the best engineered solution to the presented problem is it, but it does lead to the natural progression of the next idea.

Engine example E) Retain the static CR, retain the standard euro valve open duration (no drop in Dynamic CR) increase the available flow thru the head and the increase the valve lift and improve the exhaust flow (so we are talking BIG improvements in VE)

The aim in performance engine building is to increase the Volumetric Efficiency, that's what porting and polishing does, and what fitting twin carbs does as well by allowing the engine to breathe in and out easier. The higher the VE, the lower the required static compression ratio, the lower the required CR, the smaller the required piston dome, the smaller the required piston dome the easier the flame front will propagate in the combustion space and that improves horsepower. It's an interconnected relationship. It's also a fact of physics, the higher you cycle a four stroke engine and maintain VE you will produce more Hp.

####################################################################################################################################

If you keep the engine basically stock and think a cam change is the "silver bullet" to solve all, think again...it is an ENTIRE system... not bits and pieces cobbled together...so what your asking Jeff ... for those of us who want to keep the engine stock but improve it... well it can't be done, not properly anyway. It MAY improve HP at some point in the engines cycling range to just change the cam, but it wont work over the engines ENTIRE cycling range, not without taking a more "holistic" approach.

SteveC
 
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