Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
Does not apply...
These are Wiesco Forged alloy pistons. Completely different from Mondial or Borgo cast pistons or similar for Fiat.
Bernice
The Rat's Nest - 81 X1/9 Build
- Thread starter Clatter
- Start date
These are Wiesco Forged alloy pistons. Completely different from Mondial or Borgo cast pistons or similar for Fiat.
Bernice
Steve Thomas
True Classic
So, your are talking "stock motor to be used gently on the street" - your words. That means a standard cast piston as supplied to the OEM from Mondial, Borgo etc. It also means you use the FIAT recommended clearances etc. Easy. Don't get distracted by all that race crap - just not relevant.
And no, these engines do not run hot. Except in cars owned by the ignorant who just do not maintain the cooling system.
And no, these engines do not run hot. Except in cars owned by the ignorant who just do not maintain the cooling system.
Clatter
True Classic
Our esteemed user here ‘johnph’ had indicated that his factory pistons smeared at stock specs during race use.
Al Constantino said to run them a couple thou looser than spec.
Wiseco is saying the same thing.
Cool to see multiple places give similar info.
It’s good when different sources agree.
That’s all.
I’m not saying I’d run Wiseco specs on cast pistons.
I’ll ask the question again.
Anybody ever run the Argentine pistons?
Brand is Sintermetal.? (Scary sintered metal pistons, eh?
)
What spec did you run and how did it work out?
Al Constantino said to run them a couple thou looser than spec.
Wiseco is saying the same thing.
Cool to see multiple places give similar info.
It’s good when different sources agree.
That’s all.
I’m not saying I’d run Wiseco specs on cast pistons.
I’ll ask the question again.
Anybody ever run the Argentine pistons?
Brand is Sintermetal.? (Scary sintered metal pistons, eh?
)What spec did you run and how did it work out?
Clatter
True Classic
Castle Rock, Colorado is now this boomtown,..
Huge outlet mall, Rand McNally rated top place to live, etc.
In 1984 it was a Hick Town <-- In caps.
The old Santa Fe trail, now called highway 85, ran North to Denver.
All along were junkyards, many European only.
Rows of Fiats at places like Adams Auto Salvage further North up towards Littleton along 85.
So, I toddle into some decrepit junkyard looking for an X1/9 to pilfer...
The 'office' is a semitrailer with the wheels off, sitting on the dirt.
In the corner is a guy in overalls whittling a piece of wood.
Sitting on a stool. Trucker's hat.
Looking at what he's whittling, it's nothing. He's just making a peg.
Huge hairy guy behind the counter eyes me without saying a word.
I ask if he's got any Fiats.
Through clenched teeth he snarls.
"I CRUSH Fiats.."
His eyes remain fixed into mine. He doesn't blink.
I kinda stammer and make a joke like "they all need parts ha ha"..
He says nothing. Leers at me. Not a blink.
Look at whittler overall guy in the corner - no eye contact.
Big guy still stares straight at me. Not a word is said.
He looks ready to kill.
I slink out to go try somewhere else.
Huge outlet mall, Rand McNally rated top place to live, etc.
In 1984 it was a Hick Town <-- In caps.
The old Santa Fe trail, now called highway 85, ran North to Denver.
All along were junkyards, many European only.
Rows of Fiats at places like Adams Auto Salvage further North up towards Littleton along 85.
So, I toddle into some decrepit junkyard looking for an X1/9 to pilfer...
The 'office' is a semitrailer with the wheels off, sitting on the dirt.
In the corner is a guy in overalls whittling a piece of wood.
Sitting on a stool. Trucker's hat.
Looking at what he's whittling, it's nothing. He's just making a peg.
Huge hairy guy behind the counter eyes me without saying a word.
I ask if he's got any Fiats.
Through clenched teeth he snarls.
"I CRUSH Fiats.."
His eyes remain fixed into mine. He doesn't blink.
I kinda stammer and make a joke like "they all need parts ha ha"..
He says nothing. Leers at me. Not a blink.
Look at whittler overall guy in the corner - no eye contact.
Big guy still stares straight at me. Not a word is said.
He looks ready to kill.
I slink out to go try somewhere else.
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
These are "oem" cast. follow the Fiat service manual specs for piston to bore clearance.Our esteemed user here ‘johnph’ had indicated that his factory pistons smeared at stock specs during race use.
Al Constantino said to run them a couple thou looser than spec.
Wiseco is saying the same thing.
Cool to see multiple places give similar info.
It’s good when different sources agree.
That’s all.
I’m not saying I’d run Wiseco specs on cast pistons.
I’ll ask the question again.
Anybody ever run the Argentine pistons?
Brand is Sintermetal.? (Scary sintered metal pistons, eh?
What spec did you run and how did it work out?
View attachment 81844
Question is, given this is a stock motor that will be used and run as any of the many millions of other Lampredi SOHC motos built and run for decades.. any specific reason there is a lack of trust in the folks that designed this motor?
Bernice
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
Reality of Fiat ownership and Fiat market identity in the US of A.
Get comfy with this or get out of Fiat's.... except the exxe is not really a Fiat.
Bernice
Mark_Toro
True Classic
I miss junkyards.
Yeah - the pick a part may have online listings of the current inventory, but there is something special about the old guy grunting "probably up on the hill" then climbing in the mid 70's Chevy wagon w/ no brakes or muffler and the rear roof cut out for the torch. The greasy high school stoner jams it in drive and you roar up the rutted single lane as he tells you about setting half the yard on fire the last time he had to cut out a panel.
That's what memories are made of......
Yeah - the pick a part may have online listings of the current inventory, but there is something special about the old guy grunting "probably up on the hill" then climbing in the mid 70's Chevy wagon w/ no brakes or muffler and the rear roof cut out for the torch. The greasy high school stoner jams it in drive and you roar up the rutted single lane as he tells you about setting half the yard on fire the last time he had to cut out a panel.
That's what memories are made of......
Steve Thomas
True Classic
ask Mr Obert. I see his name on the box so I figure these came from him.
Clatter
True Classic
Clatter
True Classic
Unfortunately, the guy in town here who has done Chris’s machine work for many years is currently having some health issues.
I’ve tried to contact him, as have others, and he’s not responding.
He’s a well-respected guy and a good friend and this is very sad.
Live it and love it.
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
This Lampredi SOHC was sold by the millions world wide..Argentina to Sweden and many more..The Sintermetal people in Argentina designed this motor?
US of A was one of the smallest markets for Fiat, Agnelli & Co did not put much if any value on the US of A market due to the Millions of motos they were selling else where.
Same spec, same design, essentially the same part.
Bernice
Steve Thomas
True Classic
I reckon the comment was meant wrt the recommended clearances.The Sintermetal people in Argentina designed this motor?
TonyK
True Classic
In a perfect world stock fits/clearances should be okay. I found that they were too tight. I would go the +.003 to .005". The issue is heat sitting in traffic and next to no air moving in the engine bay. I did a .002" fit up years ago and lost the lands between the top two piston rings on cylinders 2 and 3. One day I will build up another block with 87MM pistons and will shoot for .004". Heat is a big factor, timing advance and higher compression all factor in. Go for larger clearances.
TonyK.
Grimsby Ontario Canada.
PaulD
Paul Davock
And don't forget junk yard dogs. I remember one that was chained during the day that and would hide in its dog house, only to charge out to the length of its chain if you got close. Scary.I miss junkyards.
Yeah - the pick a part may have online listings of the current inventory, but there is something special about the old guy grunting "probably up on the hill" then climbing in the mid 70's Chevy wagon w/ no brakes or muffler and the rear roof cut out for the torch. The greasy high school stoner jams it in drive and you roar up the rutted single lane as he tells you about setting half the yard on fire the last time he had to cut out a panel.
That's what memories are made of......
Russe11
True Classic
Now, I'm going to have the song about LeRoy Brown in my head all day... "Meaner than a junkyard dog..."
Clatter
True Classic
Waiting.. Waiting..
Reminds me of that kids Dr. Suess book "Oh the Places You'll Go".
The waiting chain...
I'm waiting on the machinist who's waiting on the balancer who's waiting on the crank grinder.
In the meantime, been hunting trans parts.
It's a worldwide hunt no doubt.
I've been lucky enough to be in contact with renown transaxologist Dr. Steven Hoelscher.
The more pics i send of trans parts the more my list grows.
What's reusable? What's marginally reusable?
Here's one of those dumb Porsche synchro internal brake shoes.
While these are cheap enough to replace, what's the chances that a possibly aftermarket new one is worse than this assumed good existing one?
Wear in a little spot at the face of the shoe:
End wear seems minor enough.
No sure this matters...?
Then, the idea that 'this part is worn in just right' comes into play.
On and on with every part...
Weighing the risk of replacing a good OE part with a crappy laughtermarket one,
vs. putting a worn part in that coulda been replaced.
More than even the cost of the parts, really.
The worst thing is to spend money on an inferior part,
And then having to 'out and apart' the box -again- for something that coulda been left alone!
Anyways,
Something i can offer...
Harbor Freight has some way too cheap unusable tools,
But this big snap ring plier set works well for disassembling Porsche synchros.
Not that I'd have this if i ran a transaxle shop,
But a few Porsche transaxles have come apart/together with these,
And they're still holding on.
Major gas/plumbing project at the house here to wrap up,
And, with a little luck, some Fiat time to follow.
Reminds me of that kids Dr. Suess book "Oh the Places You'll Go".
The waiting chain...
I'm waiting on the machinist who's waiting on the balancer who's waiting on the crank grinder.
In the meantime, been hunting trans parts.
It's a worldwide hunt no doubt.
I've been lucky enough to be in contact with renown transaxologist Dr. Steven Hoelscher.
The more pics i send of trans parts the more my list grows.
What's reusable? What's marginally reusable?
Here's one of those dumb Porsche synchro internal brake shoes.
While these are cheap enough to replace, what's the chances that a possibly aftermarket new one is worse than this assumed good existing one?
Wear in a little spot at the face of the shoe:
End wear seems minor enough.
No sure this matters...?
Then, the idea that 'this part is worn in just right' comes into play.
On and on with every part...
Weighing the risk of replacing a good OE part with a crappy laughtermarket one,
vs. putting a worn part in that coulda been replaced.
More than even the cost of the parts, really.
The worst thing is to spend money on an inferior part,
And then having to 'out and apart' the box -again- for something that coulda been left alone!
Anyways,
Something i can offer...
Harbor Freight has some way too cheap unusable tools,
But this big snap ring plier set works well for disassembling Porsche synchros.
Not that I'd have this if i ran a transaxle shop,
But a few Porsche transaxles have come apart/together with these,
And they're still holding on.
Major gas/plumbing project at the house here to wrap up,
And, with a little luck, some Fiat time to follow.
Mark_Toro
True Classic
I've done plenty of those synchro refreshes on the Alfa transmissions. I'm cheap and will mix and match used parts to rebuild a box. I have found that it is less about the wear on the outside of the band and more about the wear between the "brake shoe" and the band.
If you have original machining marks visible on the inside of the band there, it will function correctly. They don't need to be 100% but some visible machining marks are good. I have seen them worn to nearly 75% thickness in that area with the outside of the band looking fair (I discard those). I've never seen wear on the end of the band that matters (the area of your second photo).
The other area of these gear assemblies that I work to make as good as possible are the dog teeth and sliders. If these are like the Alfa's in construction the dog teeth can be pressed off the gear and swapped to use the best available in the build.
I've had good luck with transmissions assembled with used parts when sticking to this criteria (50 - 100K miles w/ good action). Your mileage may vary
If you have original machining marks visible on the inside of the band there, it will function correctly. They don't need to be 100% but some visible machining marks are good. I have seen them worn to nearly 75% thickness in that area with the outside of the band looking fair (I discard those). I've never seen wear on the end of the band that matters (the area of your second photo).
The other area of these gear assemblies that I work to make as good as possible are the dog teeth and sliders. If these are like the Alfa's in construction the dog teeth can be pressed off the gear and swapped to use the best available in the build.
I've had good luck with transmissions assembled with used parts when sticking to this criteria (50 - 100K miles w/ good action). Your mileage may vary
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
I tend to lean toward Mark's approach (post #458). I don't automatically replace every part with new just because I can while I'm at it. A couple of reasons: 1) as you've stated a lot of the new replacement parts are very poor quality, 2) all of the parts have become very expensive for a vehicle with so little value, and 3) I'd rather redo the component sometime in the future IF something else needs replacing then....after all you may be going back in anyway to replace the new parts you already replaced, or something else may go bad that could not have been foreseen. Old cheap cars will always need more work later, there's simply no way to avoid it.
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
Those brake bands and related innards of the Porsche synchro are often neglected and another cause of synchro problems.
Those snap rings are extra duty and not easy to deal with. Fiat has a special cone tool that fits over the gear followed by a ring that is used to push the snap ring down the cone to seat it. Best snap ring pliers are of the European pattern like these:
which has fixed tips that are forged then curved slightly to aid in ring removal and prevention of flying snap ring syndrome.
TopTul (Taiwan) made a set of snap ring pliers like this with bearing steel tips, these work good for smaller snap rings:
Interchangeable tip snap ring pliers can work ok for a while, then the tip retaining grooves die causing the tips to fly away or bend.
Engagement teeth on the Fiat synchro sliders are fixed part of the slider. The whole slider is replaced when tired.
Not just Fiat & Alfa Romeo, Porsche syncros can be found in others like Ferrari and more.. This appears to have been a euro gear box thing.
IMO, the Porsche synchro is a poor design compared to the Borg Warner which was used in many US of A designed/built gear boxes.. What is most telling, Porsche gave up on their Porsche synchro in the most recent generation of their gear boxes..
Bernice
Those snap rings are extra duty and not easy to deal with. Fiat has a special cone tool that fits over the gear followed by a ring that is used to push the snap ring down the cone to seat it. Best snap ring pliers are of the European pattern like these:
which has fixed tips that are forged then curved slightly to aid in ring removal and prevention of flying snap ring syndrome.
TopTul (Taiwan) made a set of snap ring pliers like this with bearing steel tips, these work good for smaller snap rings:
90° Retaining Ring Pliers (External Ring) - DCBA - TOPTUL The Mark of Professional Tools
Detailed information of 90° Retaining Ring Pliers (External Ring) - DCBA offered by TOPTUL The Mark of Professional Tools.
www.toptul.com
Interchangeable tip snap ring pliers can work ok for a while, then the tip retaining grooves die causing the tips to fly away or bend.
Engagement teeth on the Fiat synchro sliders are fixed part of the slider. The whole slider is replaced when tired.
Not just Fiat & Alfa Romeo, Porsche syncros can be found in others like Ferrari and more.. This appears to have been a euro gear box thing.
IMO, the Porsche synchro is a poor design compared to the Borg Warner which was used in many US of A designed/built gear boxes.. What is most telling, Porsche gave up on their Porsche synchro in the most recent generation of their gear boxes..
Bernice