1967 Fiat 850 Coupe - RetroRides Build

[Jeff Stich]

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A standard bearing with an inner sleeve would be ideal. The problem is the housing isn't thick enough to handle the OD of a bearing with an inner sleeve, at least from what I know of. I'm trying to find a needle bearing with no inner sleeve to reduce the outer diameter. Ball bearing distributors have a more "meaty" neck/housing on them than the "pencil neck" of our 850 distributors.

I have a few relatively simple ideas on how to "solve" the narrow-neck issue of the 850 distributor housing, which in turn would allow adequate room for a roller bearing insert. I'm just not familiar enough with roller bearing-equipped distributors to know exactly how they're constructed, or what type &/or size of bearing assembly(s) they use - sealed, non-sealed (requiring lube?), high-rpm & heat applications, etc.? This is where 2 or 3 or more minds working together comes in handy.

Intention is to do less machining in opening up the housing to accept the bearing. I'm always trying to engineer something which requires the least amount of work and fabrication, where where even my distributor bushing idea is stretching the limits of my tool/talent access. Might be time to hire a machinist as soon as I can let loose with the $85 hour rate they require. :whistle:

Ummm...:confuse2: Maybe you missed all the different machinery sitting around my shop when you were here? It's not there just to collect the dust & cobwebs, you know! No need to pay a machinist if it's something we can do ourselves - that's what Sunday afternoons are for, isn't it? As I keep telling Sam, it just takes an idea/plan & a phone call or two.

 

[johnt]

I'm going to bring a table to our Sunday event, & have all of the distributors that I noted laid out for easy viewing. This would probably the best photo-opp for an attendee with a decent digital camera. ::cough::John::cough:: :whistle::grin:

Last weekend 11-22-14 at Sam Alam's Airport Hanger - El Monte California.
Several 850 and 600 owners met for Pizza, Beer, Donuts and Coffee. Many Thanks to Sam for hosting this impromptu Fiat Event.
Some of us even brought other good stuff like electronic distributor conversions, Shock Absorber conversions and some of the best Bertone books available.

Left to Right: Chris, Sam, Mike, Jeff

Sam watching over Mike while he tunes Chris's car. Chris says it runs better without an aircleaner.

Not a typical day in an active Airport while talking Fiats.

Looks like we set a Record for the most FIAT 850 coupes ever assembled! There is actually a Forth coupe still in the Garage.

The top distributor is a PBS conversion.

Some excellent craftmanship on this combinaton of parts...Jeff can explain more :innocent:

VW fully electronic distributor converted to 850 use.

Jeff can add more to the text here since he brought these distributors and knows more about them.
Basically using these fully electronic conversions gets rid of the points and advance mechanisims and make everything much more consistent and reliable.

 

[Jeff Stich]

Re: Alternator

The alternator Abarth used were made in France by SEV Motorola which is nearly identical to a Jeep alternator. Only thing is the mounting ears are all wrong on Jeeps; should be in the 6 and 10 o'clock positions, a Jeep/AMC is 6 and 12. That's why my brackets needed more fabrication than I would have liked. These 6-10 o'clock eared SEV alternators are difficult to find.

While at one of my local junkyards today, I came across an '87 Jaguar XJS that had a shiny new (remanufactured) Delco Remy alternator that caught my eye as I was walking by. For some reason, this thread came to mind & I noticed that this alternator had a 6:00/10:00 mounting bolt pattern! Maybe what you're looking for? It had a very small pulley on it with a Fiat-like fan blade, but pulleys can always be swapped. The alternator was a compact design, probably just smaller than an 850 one. I couldn't see a part number on the casing, just the "Delco Remy" casting. There might've been a number hidden on the bottom or back, but I only had a screwdriver & wirecutters with me (looking for something else) & was too lazy to walk all the way out to my car, grab my tools & then walk all the way back to the Jag. :grin:

Just missed their 1/2 Price Sale Weekend, too. :doh:

I think this might've been the one?:

 

[kmead]

Interesting find. I will keep an eye out for one. It would certainly make the upper arm simpler and cleaner.

I ordered one for a Renault which looks like it should work. I also picked up one of the small Japanese ones off of a Suzuki based car to dual path this.

Thanks!

 

[johnt]

Karl, Tell us more about what you ordered???? Did the Renault use an SEV Motorola?

There are even some Luca alternators with the correct mounting ears, but a Motorola is the challenge for me. I'm very excited that we are getting closer and maybe someday we can identify the alternator Abarth used on his Corsa's.
I have nothing against anyone using whatever they choose on their car; I've used Nippos and Delcos on Fiats myself. :shh:
But I just can't understand why what Abarth chose to use on his corsa's is so difficult to cross reference. Someday it should surface

Heres a picture of my alternator setup after 2500 miles. The brackets are still holding up, but the belt is "dusting rubber" on the fan and everywhere else due to some minor vibration and flexing of the alternator bracket.

 

[Jeff Stich]

Re: Mystery S.E.V. Motorola

There are even some Luca alternators with the correct mounting ears, but a Motorola is the challenge for me. I'm very excited that we are getting closer and maybe someday we can identify the alternator Abarth used on his Corsa's.
I have nothing against anyone using whatever they choose on their car; I've used Nippos and Delcos on Fiats myself. :shh:
But I just can't understand why what Abarth chose to use on his corsa's is so difficult to cross reference. Someday it should surface

Perhaps this can shed a bit more light on the SEV Motorola alternator(s) that Abarth used on the TC, TCR & OTR (& maybe OTS/OTSS) cars:

I found these photos here: http://www.ebay.it/itm/221647581549

The stamped Motorola number is supposedly 26685, though in the lower left corner of the red tag it reads "No." and then what looks like a stamped number of "?26688" (I can't read that first digit). It looks like the correct unit, but has a regular-belt type pulley (versus a cogged-belt type). This same seller also has another similar alternator, but it's an S.E.V. Marchal unit instead (with a cogged-belt type pulley):

http://www.ebay.it/itm/251776883424

You have to scroll halfway down the auction page to see the photos of this other alternator, since the seller accidentally left the (links to the) photos of the first alternator in place when they wrote the second ad. :doh:

 

[CeesdB]

Hi all,
I have been following John's thread on Retrorides, from there I followed his project to this forum.
Looks like you could use a French alternator from i.e. a Renault 4/12/5
they have to right mounting position I think:
http://www.mister-auto.nl/fl/dynamo/cevam-4200_g4_a3934200.html

and if I am correct they have the right rotation direction.

I could check it and make pictures, because I happen to have 1 or 2 alternators laying around from a renault 4.
you can see it mounted here(if the link works..):
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?res...authkey=!AAWRF4oGAUS7taQ&v=3&ithint=photo,JPG

 

[Jeff Stich]

Close, but...

Looks like you could use a French alternator from i.e. a Renault 4/12/5 they have to right mounting position I think:
http://www.mister-auto.nl/fl/dynamo/cevam-4200_g4_a3934200.html

and if I am correct they have the right rotation direction.

That alternator looks close to what he's after, but unfortunately the mounting bolt tabs ("ears") are the mirror image of what's needed; yours has a 2:00/6:00 mounting position (upper mounting tab on right side), but the one we're after has a 10:00/6:00 position (upper tab on left side).

Compare:

to

 

[Jeff Stich]

Source found?

...the one we're after has a 10:00/6:00 position (upper tab on left side).

Ok, so my curiosity was piqued about what car did Abarth source these Motorola alternators from? The time was early/mid 1960's, when most Italian cars were still running a generator instead of an alternator, so the car was likely one whose design was advanced for that era. To me, "advanced design" plus "early 1960's Italian car" instantly brought Lancia to mind, namely the "F-series" of cars like the Flavia, Flaminia, Fulvia, etc..

Looks like I may have found Abarth's source?:excited:

http://lanciaservices.com/index.php...ticle_load&article_id=2224011&template=simple

Lancia Flavia 1800 (1.8).


Now, carrying this forward a few decades, I also found this:

http://www.partsgeek.com/gbproducts...+Google+Base&gclid=CMS44aSihsMCFc9lfgod-XcAxQ

55 amp Motorola alternator from a 1981-83 Audi 4000.

 

[johnt]

We found the alternator and part number, but still don't know how to order one. Is it on Ebay for 959,00 euro

1. The part number Jeff found on the ebay auction matches what I found on Al Cosentino's TCR. Never seen that before.
2. A search on "Fulvia Alternator" found an Amazon alternator in the link below. It's out of stock and not a Motorola. The good thing is it's got the correct mounting ears and a better price than $1000 ++ for the Motorola on Ebay. That's amazing Jeff found what looks like a real Abarth spec Motorola on Ebay. If I was restoring a Corsa worth 100K then it would be worth it I guess. Quite the find on Ebay, Jeff.... You :headbang:
   http://www.amazon.com/Quality-Built-14395-Premium-Alternator-Remanufactured/dp/B000ES8L40%3FSubscriptionId%3DAKIAJKQQVHHBZOSOADWA%26tag%3Da3italycarpartprices-20%26linkCode%3Dxm2%26camp%3D2025%26creative%3D165953%26creativeASIN%3DB000ES8L40
3. The Amazon alternator page mentions a review which says it fits 1970-94 Alfas.
4. I've seen this before where the mounting ears are correct, but it's not a Motorola. I've looked up various Alfa alternators and found a Lucus, Bosch or in this Amazon page a "no name" brand. It could have a name on it, but I can't make it out.
5. I've also seen the same Alfa model with different mounting brackets. For example, I've seen the same year Giulia, one with a Bosch and the other with an SEV. Also different brackets.
6. Could be Abarth had a big batch of these alternators in his factory, while Alfa factories installed whatever they could get between Bosch, Lucus or whatever due to labor disputes and other shortages that caused delays on the assembly line. They just used different brackets to accomidate alternator supplies.
7. I guess the search goes on for those (me) who won't spend 1K for correct alternator. But at least we have ideas on how to find alternators with the same mounting ear positions Abarth used.
8. I get the feeling the alternator on the TCR happens to be an alternator used on Lancia's, Renaults and Alfas. Jeff even mentions the clever angle about Lancia and using alternators since they were supposed to be advanced. I only hope Jeff finds a stash of Fulvia or Alfa alternators, since all I find is Motorola's being out of stock and/or the replacement being a Bosch. I think the Audi alternator in the previous post is probably a Bosch as they are most of the time. They look very similar from the front and are totally different from the back. Who knows, maybe Bosch look-a-like will work out very well for some of us.
9. Seems that Abarth used this same alternator on all his Hot cars since he probably got a huge crate of them when Fulvias were in production. Did he ever use Bosch electrics in his Italian creations? I doubt he was all that concerned over how his alternators were mounted. But, Maybe He Did. :italia:
10. Thanks to all for making this alternator search interesting and full of good information.

 

[Jeff Stich]

More...

I guess the search goes on for those (me) who won't spend 1K for correct alternator. But at least we have ideas on how to find alternators with the same mounting ear positions Abarth used.

I thought that was the main goal? Finding something that fit/worked & had "the look" for use on your car(s)? :confuse2: Like you said, I'd never even consider a $1k alternator unless I had a real TCR/OTR/OTSS/whatever else.

I get the feeling the alternator on the TCR happens to be an alternator used on Lancia's, Renaults and Alfas, depending on what was available at the factory. I don't know which model car specifically and always had it installed at the factory through the entire model year.

We now know the Lancia Flavia used this S.E.V. Motorola. It doesn't have a stamped alloy tag like some of them do, but it does have the name cast/stamped into the housing itself. Hard to see in this photo, but it's there!



I had also considered Simca cars as possible "donors", since Abarth had a good working relationship with Simca for a while with the Simca 1150 (reworked Simca 1000 Sedan) & the Abarth-Simca 1300/2000 race cars. AFAIK, the Simca 1000's used a generator like the Fiat 850, etc., but I can't recall what the Abarth-Simca race cars used (scampering off to my books now...). :confuse2:

 

[CeesdB]

That alternator looks close to what he's after, but unfortunately the mounting bolt tabs ("ears") are the mirror image of what's needed; yours has a 2:00/6:00 mounting position (upper mounting tab on right side), but the one we're after has a 10:00/6:00 position (upper tab on left side).

Compare:

to

Hmm... your correct it's mirrored. But I tend to keep looking in the Renault/Simca area. If I looks at the Renault 8 it looks promising?
http://mecaparts.com/PhotosPieces/MP1213.jpg
or possibly other rear engined Renaults?

 

[johnt]

I thought that was the main goal? Finding something that fit/worked & had "the look" for use on your car(s)? :confuse2:

My goal was to cross reference the alternator Abarth used so I can order one and be sure I'd get an SEV Motorola.

Just remember, we can get carried-away or crazy about Fiats and what Abarth did to make them so cool. I end up making bigger problems or getting "stuck" on a design when maybe a simple "optional" solution would be just as good.

I think finding more options is great :clap: :clap: :clap: where it can help us create what Abarth did without much trouble. I've learned many ideas on how to search for parts and how to look for options in these last few posts.

Here are some more examples of what I've looked at, but they all have issues.
This Alfa Motorola has been on ebay for over a year.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alfa-Romeo-...-alternator-from-1972-to-75-New-/261031825895
This alternator would be extra nice since it has a case bi-directional fan, but the $300 price tag is more than I want to spend.
Here is a Bosch for a 72-94 Alfa
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alternator-BOSCH-AL16X-Reman-fits-72-94-Alfa-Romeo-Spider-2-0L-L4-/161400689548?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Year%3A1979|Model%3ASpider&hash=item25943b138c&vxp=mtr
This is still pricey, and is an example of multiple brands of alternators fitting the same car.
But I don't think I can just order an alternator for a "197X Lancia Flavia" and expect to receive a real 26685 SEV Motorola.

So I guess we can say ONE Thing is that we have found Lancia Flavias used the same alternator, but Motorola is not always the replacement on a part vendors shelf. Some Lancia specialty shops may carry a used one, but other than that, I'd probably be better off with my postal jeep Motorola for now.

We now know the Lancia Flavia used this S.E.V. Motorola. It doesn't have a stamped alloy tag like some of them do, but it does have the name cast/stamped into the housing itself. Hard to see in this photo, but it's there!

This is an example of where Fulvia's used an alternator with the 12 & 6 o'clock ears. If you google images "Flavia Engine", most alternators shown mounted on engines will be just like this one and more of them will be Bosch. The easy way to know from the front view if you have a Motorola is the 4 Square nut pockets on the front of the housing. Bosch pockets are round. The rear of a Motorola is obvious since it's the only brand with the external diode heat sink which is painted some bright Red or Blue and sometimes left silver or painted black.

I had also considered Simca cars as possible "donors", since Abarth had a good working relationship with Simca for a while with the Simca 1150 (reworked Simca 1000 Sedan) & the Abarth-Simca 1300/2000 race cars. AFAIK, the Simca 1000's used a generator like the Fiat 850, etc., but I can't recall what the Abarth-Simca race cars used (scampering off to my books now...). :confuse2:

Jeff, remember bring some of those amazing books to the next Fiat get-together we have. Very interesting and enlightening approach to tracing parts and what Abarth may have done back-in-the-day. Simca and other French cars may provide some resources too.

 

[Jeff Stich]

Wait...

But I don't think I can just order an alternator for a "197X Lancia Fulvia" and expect to receive a real 26685 SEV Motorola.

Ummm, wrong car, John. It's the Lancia FLAVIA, not the Fulvia. Very important to first have the correct model car before trying to look up parts for/from it! :italia:

So I guess we can say ONE Thing is that we have found Lancia Fulvias (edit: Flavia) used the same alternator, but Motorola is not always the replacement on a part vendors shelf.

That is correct. Just like many cars, even our 850's, there are always OEM parts & then there are aftermarket parts, both fit the car & "work", but some do it better than others. Some parts were fitted to specific cars in specific markets only. Sometimes both end up later being supplied as "factory replacements" - like Fiat USA did with our older Fiat cars (the Femsa generators & SIL/ZIL/other-name water pumps for the 850's come to mind).

Also keep in mind that this specific Motorola unit # may have only been used for a certain few years of the Flavia production span, & maybe only with certain engines. If I remember correctly, earlier Flavias used a generator, then later an alternator? Similar to how our early 850 843's used the small European Marelli generator, then the 1968-69 817's got the bigger "USA" Marelli generator, then in 1970 we got the alternator-equipped cars (but the Sedan still kept the big generator). The 600's got a small Marelli generator, then a slightly bigger (longer) Marelli, & then the big fat Bosch generator. Etc.

We know the SEV Motorola model number, we know what it looks like front/side/back, & we know at least one major-manufacturer car & engine size that this particular unit was used on. Those are pretty good parameters to start with, now it's just a matter of flushing out any others. :read: c: :hmm:

 

[johnt]

Ummm, wrong car, John. It's the Lancia FLAVIA, not the Fulvia. Very important to first have the correct model car before trying to look up parts for/from it! :italia:

I sure got all those Lancia model names messed-up. I don't think I'll ever forget how you corrected me on the Auteroche headlites earlier also. But the funny thing is Ebay still never fails to have Cluteroche auctions.
Thanks for calling that out. :worship:

Like I mentioned before, I'm getting an education in these recent posts. :geek:

Now I've always loved the look of the Fulvia and the strange narrow 4V engine, but the Flavia I missed as a better source for parts.
Flavias even have the oil filter unit used on late model Abarths. I used to have one of those oil filters, but it didn't have the oil pressure relief feature.
Here's a late 600D with the Lancia oil filter setup. It had a custom made alloy mounting block that contained the pressure relief valve since I couldn't figure-out which car Abarth sourced the part from. I'm still wondering even though I don't need one.:confuse2:

This car used a 14" rear and 13" front wheel combo to improve the final drive ratio for hwy driving.


Flavia's were renamed to Lancia Flavia 2000 in 1971 according to Wiki. It is also the start of "Alternator Power" according to a Flavia 2000 website. So a Lancia Flavia 2000 is probably the car (or one of them) that Abarth snagged the alternator from. The 2000 was launched for car shows in '69 which is around the time they started showing up on cars like the 850 based OTR and 600 based TCR's.
Now maybe I might have to start looking for one. :italia:

 

[kmead]

I have been curious about acquiring a European version of a later alternator. The 903 series engines were used for a long time in a variety of different cars like the 127 and the later Panda. Which shows how good that engine was to be used for so long.

These are examples of internally regulated alternators from a few different variations sold all the way into the 80s:

http://tinyurl.com/mronkyh
http://tinyurl.com/lv2y6av
http://tinyurl.com/lxsb36y
http://tinyurl.com/lkydmyo
http://tinyurl.com/n3f9qm4

These are from a variety of makers, Lucas, Bosch and Denso so there may be some choices

 

[johnt]

Fiat 850 Get-Together -- Mikes Shop

A few Southern California 850 owners met at Mikes shop in Huntington Beach for a look at the progress being made on his series 1 coupe. We last saw the car several months ago and now in Jan 2015 it was finally running and drivable.

Mike and Chis having a look at some of the parts on the work bench.

A few of the cars driven to Mikes shop.

 

[Jeff Stich]

Da' Coupe!

A few Southern California 850 owners met at Mikes shop in Huntington Beach for a look at the progress being made on his Series 1 Coupe. We last saw the car several months ago and now in Jan 2015 it was finally running and drivable.

It was running, but not quite "drivable" per se. We finally fixed that yesterday (Sunday 2/1) by installing some shocks on the car. Of course, Mike just had to take it out for a quick test drive. :wink2:

A little Parking Lot Grand Prix, anyone? :italia:

 

[bbrown]

Don't ya love ...

Snap-On calendars? :grin:

 

[johnt]

Snap-On calendars? :grin:

Mike is big on Snap On tools, Clocks and Calendars. If I could only get him to bring over some of his girl friends to these 850 parties :shock2:
He's taken us to visit some of the finest bar keepers at his local pub around the corner from his shop. :love: