4 into 1 exhaust system vs 4-2-1 ?

Ok, the verdict! 111.8 hp and 90 at the wheels.
Main jets 140 and A/C's are 160
I will try and scan and post the dyno sheet at some point.
Standard manifold and exhaust is better.
 
ok, do you know what venturi's (30, 32 mm?)and what emulsiontubes (F24 or F36) u use?

To bad about the exhaust. The sound is a lot better then the standard though
 
Sledghammer

Glad to hear you got it sorted out. I'm sure it finally drives better!
"standard manifold and exhaust is better"
By this, do you mean the factory cast manifold and a stock muffler exhaust? Sounds like it was tested with that as well as the tube header?
Was the dyno tech able to experiment with things like cam timing, ignition timing, spark plugs, etc.? I'd be interested to hear more details about what you learned. And looking forward to seeing your download of the printouts.
Thanks and congrats on getting it dyno'ed.
 
Hey Dr Jeff,
The original exhaust system I had was a 4 into 2 manifold (standard) with a custom made stainless steel free flow muffler, but made to the same shape as the standard muffler. This achieved 93 bhp.
The dyno tester said there was 3 -4 hp on the vernier pulley adjustment. I did not bother with the plugs as they did not seem to fit properly, there seemed to be a slight difference in thread and they were a bit 'wobbly' going in!
I fitted a set of genuine Fiat plugs which all seemed to be self indexing, in that they all point towards the piston crown.
Timing was set at 12 degrees before TDC.
He tried bigger jets but the engine could not handle it through the whole rev range.
He did make a reasonable improvement, on the last dyno I was only getting 83 bhp.
It has more torque at higher revs, 50 mph in 2nd gear and chickend out at 70mph in third!
 
Hi sledgehammer,

I would also be very interested in learning from your dyno results.
Could you upload the graphs? You could also mail them to for uploading if it helps.

You mention 83, 91 and 112 hp, but I do not follow which configurations these number correspond to.
Could you clarify that?
 
Hi Ulix,
I believe that the 112 hp is the measurement at the flywheel, the 90 brake horsepower is the power at the wheels after loss through the gearbox (sorry, transmission!) and drive train.
 
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Sledghammer

Thanks for the added info. To be honest I am a little surprised that the 'standard' exhaust manifold did better than the header, given the significant mods your engine has. But glad to hear that you were able to get everything sorted out. Enjoy it!
 
Horsepower and torque are words that are much used and little understood.

4-1 systems are not inherently superior to 4-2-1 systems or else we wouldn't complain about the 4-1 manifold and seek out the 4-2 manifolds.

A poorly designed 4-1 header can lose power over a stock US-spec exhaust with cat in place.

4-1 headers are not necessarily designed for high RPM power. They are tuned--or NOT tuned--as is often the case--for power production at a certain RPM range. An equal length header will be at its peak in a very narrow range and it is important to match peaks among porting, cam timing, intake length and header design.

I like 4-2-1 headers for street use because they are more forgiving of the various things that are out of our control--or under limited control from us.

I REALLY like 4-2-1 cast iron-dual downpipe setups for street engines. Cast iron manifolds LAST and LAST and are made right from the factory. The seal forever and ever. I have every confidence that a '74 iron manifold or a Yugo carb manifold, port matched and with a properly designed downpipe, will outperform any header on any reasonable street engine.

EVERY header I have encountered on an X1/9 has required tweaking or overhauling to make it fit right. The flanges are 3/8" at best, which is too thin to match thicknesses with the intake manifold for proper sealing (and not bending the studs) at the outer intake manifold shared holes. The inner holes are usually little chunks of angle iron cut approximately to length and tenuously welded in place. Sometimes it's not angle iron but 3/16" round bar. Either way, the length is usually wrong, causing more sealing problems. On top of all that, the welds are usually poor. Headers crack at the flange, at the collector and at tube-to-tube welds or somewhere in the middle of any tube along the way. They're sexy, but they just don't work great for street cars with street duty and street heat cycles. I am not being a fussy old man. I am being a practical hot rodder.

Headers are great when properly scienced out. On the fabrication bench at Bayless, I have a batch of flanges I ordered up to design a proper street header. Headers are down the road a bit, but when we do offer something, it will work and fit as it should.
 
I REALLY like 4-2-1 cast iron-dual downpipe setups for street engines. Cast iron manifolds LAST and LAST and are made right from the factory. The seal forever and ever. I have every confidence that a '74 iron manifold or a Yugo carb manifold, port matched and with a properly designed downpipe, will outperform any header on any reasonable street engine.

[snip]

Headers are down the road a bit, but when we do offer something, it will work and fit as it should.

I agree completely. So what would be really cool is if you could produce a 2:1 down pipe that connects from a '74 (or Euro) 4:2 cast iron header to the standard input of the catalytic converter on an FI car. This would bake for an affordable, factory(ish) performance upgrade for FI cars. I can even ship you a dozen or so 4:2 headers from Europe...

Cheers,
Dom.
 
Mr. Cioccarelli,

Matt and I have discussed a 4-2-1 manifold downpipe setup a few times. I am always pitching the idea of a downpipe for the cast 4-2 manifold. I will discuss the possibility of european manifolds with him. If we could get the manifolds affordably, the DPs would be worth building, at least in my way of thinking. Mating the DP to the factory exhaust would be straight-forward, but I'd bet that most customers would want a performance muffler as well.
 
So in layman's terms...

Do you guys think this system with a standard manifold:

http://www.eurosport-uk.net/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_8&products_id=267

would provide overall better results than this product with its own 4:1 manifold?:

http://www.eurosport-uk.net/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_8&products_id=268

http://www.eurosport-uk.net/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_8&products_id=269

There's one hell of a price difference!

Best wishes,

Mickey
 
Hi Mickey,
Definately, if you go on Guy Crofts website, he is quoted as saying the oringinal manifold is the best one for the engine.
 
Hey,

That fits in with my Janspeed experience. Using standard manifold, and the Janspeed down pipe and exhaust, and with bigger jets and a K&N, the car was like a bloody rocket around town.

The 4:1 CSC system might look/sound the part, but it's just not as pokey somehow.

The Janspeed's did have a bad habit of blowing out the glass fibre though, and I had to keep returning it to them to be fixed. My mate had same problem.

At least I know if and when this damn 4:1 manifold gives up the ghost on my new 87 car, I can go back to standard without fear. Also, I have a brand new 4:1 CSC manifold worth mega bucks still in a box which can go on eBay now!
 
I REALLY like 4-2-1 cast iron-dual downpipe setups for street engines. Cast iron manifolds LAST and LAST and are made right from the factory. The seal forever and ever. I have every confidence that a '74 iron manifold or a Yugo carb manifold, port matched and with a properly designed downpipe, will outperform any header on any reasonable street engine.

I've been saying the same thing for years .... :wink2:

Even better would be the euro 1500 exhaust manifold, larger port size than the 1300 equivalent. Personally I've seen 99RWHP with a single carb and one of these manifolds feeding into a 2.25 inch system from 1500cc.

SteveC
 
Lord knows what I did with my UK 1500 manifold. I'll try pick one up soon though.

Good thread this. Very informative. Just goes to show that not everything sold as a performance part is what it appears or claims to be...

Regards,

Mickey
 
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