850 spider upgrades?

Chaostoy

True Classic
/Whiskey ramblings
I've had my 903 spider for a very long time, but as the only one working and trying to take care of life, I have neglected it. Fast forward a decade, and I've about got things together enough to do something with my car. I had so many issues with the 30 DICA not idling without choke that I just want something a bit better when I begin again. What out there exists usable for a 903cc? Should I pursue obscure parts to get this thing to run right, or do a motorcycle engine swap and be done with it? Basically I just want to drive the damn thing, and I know it's no show car, but I had fun anyway when it ran. (Although the half hour interviews everytime I stopped for gas get a bit taxing) What parts should I look for if keeping it Fiat? If doing a swap, then thoughts? /end Whiskey ramblings ;)
 
The usual problem with a 30DIC is wear in the primary throttle shaft allowing false air to enter, makes it almost mpossible to tune properly. The fix is to repair the shaft wear, by replacing the shaft and installing a bushing into the carby body, to do that you need a "full" kit only available thru Weber (and these days only as NOS when you can find it)

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PM if you need one.

SteveC
 
My 850 sat by the side of the prior owners house for 25 years unused. When I mechanically "restored" it, I flushed out the gas tank at spray wash. I built a new engine, rebuilt the carb, new fuel pump etc. New clear fuel filter in line from the pump to the carb. Now, you should know that the 850 is a tiny engine with a tiny carb with tiny jets. Those jets clog with dirt. When clogged, it does not get enough gas to idle.
My clear fuel filter collected about 1cc of rusty dust every 300 miles. When the car started to run rough, I would remove and blow out the jets with compressed air. I told the new buyer to keep up on the fuel filter maintenance. The subsequent owner got tired of that and removed the fuel tank and either replaced it or had it flushed and recoated. The bad news is that you have to remove the engine and trans to remove the fuel tank.
The only part you need is a new fuel tank. They rust inside, so the smart move is to recoat the inside of even new tanks....
 

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I got lots of rust out of the tank, filled it with almost 8 gallons of apple cider vinegar and let it sit for a couple weeks. It was shiny and clean with lots of pin holes after that! I then used Red Kote motorcycle tank liner, and a bit of Quicksteel on the exterior top. The car has been modified inside with a removable metal panel to allow the tank to be removed easily.
If I were to get a different carb, what intake and carb would work?
 
You are asking different questions here. If you just want it to run correctly then fixing your carb or getting a replacement of the same type would be the logical answer. If you want a performance upgrade with a larger carb then that is a totally different issue.
An engine swap is a totally different concept altogether and is an interesting cure for a lack of idle! A 'Busa powered 850 would be rather amazing.

If it idles only with the choke pulled then it sounds like your idle jet is plugged since the choke pulls a bit on the throttle linkage and you are now idling on the main circuit. It's been 50 years since I had my 850 but I imagine it's not hard to pull the idle jet and verify it's not plugged.
 
You can pull the jets with the carb in the car.

Personally I pull the whole carb as it is easier to clean out than in. The Spider is easier to deal with because you can get over it, but when spraying carb cleaner and dealing with small fiddly parts working on a cooking sheet pan with raised sides is a much better place to do this.
 
Clean the idle jets, they're easy to do without removing anything from the car (except maybe the air filter housing, for easier access). I recommend placing a towel under each side of the carb, in order to catch anything that may get dropped during the cleaning process. There's nothing worse than accidentally dropping the idle jet & having it fall into that little Bermuda Triangle down between the starter motor, the engine block & the flywheel plate (the jet & holder are non-magnetic, so you can't just fish it out with a telescoping magnet tool). Cover the carb venturii for good measure, as well.

If idle is still poor after doing this, with the engine running, spray some carb cleaner or brake cleaner directly at the point where the main throttle shaft exits the carb body (right where the throttle linkage is). If the engine stumbles or speeds up, you have an air leak there (a worn shaft opening issue, as noted above by fiatfactory). This is fixed by disassembling the carb & reaming the shaft openings for oversized bushings (aftermarket parts) or oversized throttle shafts (factory Fiat/Weber parts).

If nothing occurs after spraying the throttle shaft, spray carb/brake cleaner along the horizontal joint where the carb base meets the steel fuel splash tray (if still fitted) or the top of the intake manifold. Start at the main throttle shaft & work your way to the left towards the secondary shaft, then on around the entire base of the carb. If the engine stumbles or speeds up, you have an air leak. Slowly repeat the spraying process to better narrow down the exact location of the leak(s)- it will most likely be on the main linkage side of the carb between the 2 throttle shafts, as the carb base is prone to warping from owners over-tightening the carb-to-manifold bolts/nuts (this side gives easier access, thus a tendency towards over-tightening). Fixing this issue will require removing the carb & sanding (planing) the base flat. Not a difficult job, just requires focus (I can give you more detailed instructions on doing this correctly, if needed).

If none of these restore proper idle, other things to check would be the condition of the idle adjustment needle (crusty, worn, bent or broken needle tip), excessive play (wear) between the distributor shaft & its body or a worn/missing distributor shaft oil slinger (wobbly or bouncing distributor shaft, causing erratic timing).

These are all much easier & cheaper to diagnose/fix than installing another type of power plant. Getting another carb/manifold won't fix the issue of sediment clogging jets, either. The 30DIC carb is perfectly fine for the car, it only gets maligned by so many people because they're too lazy or ignorant to fix the main underlying issue - a poor quality fuel supply. A rusty, crap-filled tank is the #1 cause of consistently-clogging carb jets on 850's. Fix the cause & you'll never have to deal with the effects that result from it. A couple days of dealing with it directly are more than worth the years of headache-free driving afterwards.

Clean the fuel tank, then clean it again.
Replace all fuel hoses with NEW (not NOS) fuel hose.
Install a good quality fuel filter both before & after the fuel pump.
Clean the carb & jets, then clean them again.
Adjust carb float level & idle mixture/speed screws as needed.
Use paper or quality foam air filters if possible (crumbly foam filter particles will clog air corrector, idle & main jets)
Check the condition of the air cleaner-to-carb top rubber gasket/insulator (crumbly rubber - see above).

A clean fuel system is worth its weight in gold on any engine, moreso on our little Fiat 600's & 850's. ;)
 
A 'Busa powered 850 would be rather amazing.
I rather like the idea of that!
Personally I pull the whole carb as it is easier to clean out than in.
I agree.
the carb base is prone to warping from owners over-tightening the carb-to-manifold bolts/nuts
The damn nuts keep working loose under the carb, so I bet that's what has occurred.
excessive play (wear) between the distributor shaft & its body
lots of play there, and was looking for an electronic distributor recently to drop in. I hear good things about the Pertronics, but not sure which to replace the Ducelier with.
If you want a performance upgrade with a larger carb then that is a totally different issue.
I really would like this. I've tried a couple different 30 DICA and never had any luck. They sure named it right!
 
the "idea" of a swap may sound good, but the reality (after the whiskey wears off) will be very different.

if your having trouble finding the time to get the carby right, you're never going to have the time to do a full engine swap.... as Carl said, that's a pretty radical way of repairing the 30DIC carby.

Follow Jeff's logic path to diagnosis, he bothered to take the time to list pretty much everything that is a common tuning issue with the OHV engines (I just mentioned the one almost no one ever wants to fix properly and usually gets put in the too hard basket)

If you go thru the steps listed, you will find the cause...then you just have to fix it...but the correct diagnosis is actually the most difficult first step.

SteveC
 
ixing this issue will require removing the carb & sanding (planing) the base flat. Not a difficult job, just requires focus (I can give you more detailed instructions on doing this correctly, if needed).
I would like to know this information, thanks!
 
That is some excellent advice right there. Thank you Jeff

It took me a couple of tries to get mine dialed in when I first got my car (1990). I have done a light version of Jeff’s work process a few times since as my car gets used rarely and evaporated fuel leaves deposits that need cleaning out periodically.

The two fuel filters are key, I use a larger metal one before the fuel pump and a translucent plastic one near the carb to see if there is sediment in it.
 
This is a good option for before the fuel pump. Baldwin BF989 Nylon Screen In-Line Fuel Filter. I have an electric pump but if I was using the merchanical pump, I would get similar metal filter. Baldwin makes a screen filter with metal case also.
 
I also use two filters, and have the drip tray as well. If only the carb was the only trouble I've had. I actually snapped two rocker rods! The first broke when the studs somehow came up out of the head. I took the head to a shop and had it fixed, then later a second snapped as well. I replaced the head.
 
I had those rocker studs pull out of the head while vintage racing. That motor was a hand grenade waiting to blow up courtesy of the previous owner, a guy named Adrian.
 
Back to why this was in the FS&W, I still want to know what intake and carb upgrade I should look for (while I attempt to sort out this DICA), as well as electronic distributor unit, or any other upgrades any of you may know of.
 
36DCD is a common upgrade and manifolds are available, the carbys are harder to find, although a chinese copy of a similar carb is available (but definitely not recommending a chinese carb as they are just rubbish) comes as both progressive and simultaneous variants.

also comes as a 32 /36 dcd progressive
dcd to 850 ohv a.jpgdcd to 850 ohv.jpg
manifolds are avaable thru a forum member based in greece, but the manifold has been cast from a broken / repaired Abarth original, so it's a bit lopsided in the casting so getting the four small studs and nuts to align and seat well takes some effort

some people fit a single 40 DCOE to the engines....but that is way too big IMO

a dcnf manifold is available for the OHV engine, but designed for 127 / A112 FWD cars, but it will work well with a 36dcnva on an 850/600. It came as a kit with the extended head bolts etc from Alquati
manifolds 092.jpg

a better choice (if you can find the manifold to suit) is a 32DCOF side draft (or even better the dellorto or solex equivalents as they are a better carb).
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apart from maybe the 32DCOF, these are serous overkill with an otherwise standard engine, the best carby for that job is the 30DIC.

SteveC
 
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Great info SteveC. I have in a vintage racer with a 940cc 903, 40 DCNF, manufold of unknown source and a "hogged out head". A mighty engine but not for the street.
 
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