Alfa 164

twincam69

twincam69

True Classic
Does anyone have any experience with these as I'm looking for another sedan? I've had 6 Alfas ranging from a '69 to my present 2017 Giulia so I know they all have some idiosyncrasies but I'm tired of all the computer crap (which is working well, BTW) on the Giulia. I just really want to be able to do normal service without a laptop.

Thanks,
Hampton
 
I had a 164S as my daily driver back in the 90s and loved it. Great cars but I would be careful now as age and neglect could make them a challenge to own.
 
Hampton: consider a 65 or 66 Guilia TI or Giulia Super. No reason also not to consider the 1300cc variants. They are just as much fun.
 
I was looking at cheap 164's as a basis for my engine swap project on the Scorpion. Some of the cars seemed to have HVAC issues, apparently this was the mid-90's and they had already started using separate computers for different systems and the HVAC systems on these cars were complex. I ended up finding a drivetrain that was already pulled so did not get to play with a running example, so can't tell you more. This one looks like a superb example if it is real and not a scam 1991 164S on FB
 
dherr said:
I was looking at cheap 164's as a basis for my engine swap project on the Scorpion. Some of the cars seemed to have HVAC issues, apparently this was the mid-90's and they had already started using separate computers for different systems and the HVAC systems on these cars were complex. I ended up finding a drivetrain that was already pulled so did not get to play with a running example, so can't tell you more. This one looks like a superb example if it is real and not a scam 1991 164S on FB
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Based on my research it’s the stepper motors that are the weak points in the HVAC system. That’s a nice 164 on FB!
 
Hope it is as good as it looks in the pictures, really nice example for sure! Good luck.
 
Seems like a knowledgeable seller. He has two other 164s and a few other older Alfas as well. My Facebook avatar is my ‘75 X and we discussed old Fiats for a while, too.
 
Stepper motors
Timing belt tensioner (immediate timing belt service before you drive an inch.)
Transmissions, 5 speeds fragile, automatic down right hand grenades.

I never fixed my stepper motors, but installed a hand pull (think choke knob) to open and close the mixer vent. In Seattle you can get by without A/C. There was a guy in the UK that made aluminum stepper motor gears.

IMHO the 164S were never gently driven by their owners. Other than the trim package, the only difference between the B, L and the S is that the S has a closer ratio transaxle. Still just as fragile as the B & L transaxle. Ask me how I know. If the one on FB has only 70k on it, either it sat waiting repairs for a couple of decades, or another FB scam.
 
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Here’s the info he gave my brother in law who said it drove very well. I’m seriously considering it.


“It was bought new in Missouri where it remained with its original owner until being sold in 1996 to try its 2nd owner in New Jersey. I then purchased it in 2017, and it has remained with me since. There re service records going back to the original ‘Maintenance Log’ booklet as early as 07/03/1990 at 1,588 miles. Records continue to present day with documented dates and mileage.

Winter of 2022 I commissioned a mechanical overhaul, done by veteran Alfa Romeo tech of the former ‘Alfa Auto Clinic’.
Some of the work includes:
• Full timing and serpentine belt service
• Fluids and filters throughout
• Spark plugs, ignitions wires, and coil
• Fuel pump, fuel filter, and fuel hoses
• Coolant and power steering hoses
• Clutch slave cylinder, master cylinder, and clutch hose
• Rebuilt brake calipers, pads, rotors, and stainless steel hoses front & rear
While the timing belt service was being performed, I had the valve covers and intake plenum professionally powder coated in wrinkle red and the air filter box in gloss black. The finish is extreme durable and will not chip, flake, or peel.

This is a very presentable solid driver-quality example. You will not win a Concours — but you can get in, turn the key, and drive it anywhere you please without a worry — and it will look really good doing so.

Exterior is solid and rust-free with straight body panels showing consistent gaps. The previous owner had a full respray done in 2010 using a single stage paint. Finish is good, but could use a buffing to bring out more depth and gloss. There are some minor miscellaneous dings and small scratches to be expected of a 32 year old car.
Windshield and all glass is original and in excellent condition with no chips or cracks. Rubber trim and seals are also very good for their age with no severe drying or deterioration. Electronics and power accessories work fine with no faults to note other than the rear windows sometimes opening & closing slowly.
Interior is in excellent shape. The red-stitched leather covered instrument cluster binnacle suffered from the usual warping found on S models, and was replaced with a perfect unit from a 164 L. The tan leather front seats were suffering from some wear and tear on the outer bolsters and were professionally refurbished. The color matches perfectly and they look fantastic for their age. Headliner is original and still in nice clean condition, but is starting to sag slightly in the left rear corner.

Brand-new 16" Monza Wheels and Pirelli P7 tires not only look incredible but also perform very well.
I do have a complete set of original 15" Speedline stock S model wheels with dry tires I could swap on for a lower price point should any interested parties not want the 16" Monza Wheels.”
 
If you buy the car, let us know. You'll want to discuss replacing the roll pin in the differential before it disintegrates and caused your diff to saw through the transaxle case.

BJ, chime in, I just realized you bought the car from me.
 
dnudelman said:
If you buy the car, let us know. You'll want to discuss replacing the roll pin in the differential before it disintegrates and caused your diff to saw through the transaxle case.

BJ, chime in, I just realized you bought the car from me.
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Yeah? That was you? hah, awesome. IIRC it was a grey on black Recaro 5-speed with a failed transaxle. Ran great and the Recaro interior was rare and desirable.

I actually ended up selling it to the second buyer in line the following week. I had second thoughts on a 164, being FWD and all, vs what I ended up with, a Milano Verde.

I don't even think I took pics of the 164. The second in line guy was thrilled I had second thoughts.
 
dnudelman said:
If you buy the car, let us know. You'll want to discuss replacing the roll pin in the differential before it disintegrates and caused your diff to saw through the transaxle case.

BJ, chime in, I just realized you bought the car from me.
Click to expand...
I have two 164 engines and 5 speed manuals in my shop, one will be rebuilt to go in my Scorpion. I'll have to look up this issue with the roll pin in the differential, but hopefully the 5 speed will be less stressed as the Scorpion should weigh about 1000 pounds less than the 164!
 
dherr said:
I have two 164 engines and 5 speed manuals in my shop, one will be rebuilt to go in my Scorpion. I'll have to look up this issue with the roll pin in the differential, but hopefully the 5 speed will be less stressed as the Scorpion should weigh about 1000 pounds less than the 164!
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If I were you, I would replace the roll pin with something stronger, say a grade 8 set screw.
 
Working for a franchised Alfa dealer as a Service Manager when 164's were introduced to North America I attended technical training at Alfa's new HQ in Orlando. 164S's had yet to be formally introduced however there was a Quadrifiglio in the corner of the workshop with a "blown-up" transaxle, apparently it let go while on loan to Road & Track. Shortly after that episode there was training specifically related to transaxles. I also remember the head of training, Jeff Childress, stating never to raise a 164 that had the engine / transaxle / subframe removed without the factory strut brace in place...the monocoque tended to twist without it and windshield's had been know to stress crack. They were problematic cars and a far cry from 115's. A lovely driving, if big, car however.....Reading Dnudelman's posts brought back many (unfortunate) memories!
 
flaviaman said:
Working for a franchised Alfa dealer as a Service Manager when 164's were introduced to North America I attended technical training at Alfa's new HQ in Orlando. 164S's had yet to be formally introduced however there was a Quadrifiglio in the corner of the workshop with a "blown-up" transaxle, apparently it let go while on loan to Road & Track. Shortly after that episode there was training specifically related to transaxles. I also remember the head of training, Jeff Childress, stating never to raise a 164 that had the engine / transaxle / subframe removed without the factory strut brace in place...the monocoque tended to twist without it and windshield's had been know to stress crack. They were problematic cars and a far cry from 115's. A lovely driving, if big, car however.....Reading Dnudelman's posts brought back many (unfortunate) memories!
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@flaviaman I KNOW OFF TOPIC - but I couldn't help but notice you have an 850 Coupe dash as your avatar!
 
Best of the type fuor chassis was the SAAB 9000, up to 1991. Fiat Chroma did not last long, Lancia Thema was ok enough with the swan song being the V8 "Ferrari" variant, Alfa 164 had several versions sold in the US Considered one but ended up with the SAAB 9000 for a long list of reasons.. Busso V6 has a glorious song, but finicky to care for and the transaxles are a known problem area as are the timing system in the Busso V6. Of all those Busso powered Alfa Romeo's IMO, the Milano Verde was the best.. Only real problem issues are the Bosch electricals.. That power train in the Milano has proven to be 24 Hours of LeMons tested tough and durable.

As for the SAAB 9000 variant of the type 4, the 1991 is current mileage record holder at 440,000 miles.
www.saabnet.com

Saab High/Low Mileage Registry

Saab High/Low Mileage Registry on Saabnet.com - on the Internet Since 1988! Over 1 Million Pages of Saab Info, Bulletin Boards, Classifieds, and Much More!
www.saabnet.com

1991, Saab 9000T, CSE front.png



The original transaxle died at about 180K. 5th gear dissolved under acceleration. Saab being Saab after discovering this problem, re-designed that part of the transaxle, then made update kits available to all service facilities at reasonable cost. Updated/rebuilt transaxle installed at about 180K, that transaxle remains in the 9000 to this day.. Bottom end on that Saab B234 has never been apart. One valve job, timing chain and such rebuilt at about nee 300K.. No wonder why there is an strong aftermarket for Saab B204/B234 turbo motors being installed into everything from Boats to kit cars to BMW, Miata, and much more..

Fond of the Busso V6 in many ways and there was a time when Coswoth in the UK wanted to purchase the design, production rights and all related from Fiat to be used as a production race motor offering.. Fiat refused..


Bernice
 
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Rupunzell said:
Best of the type for chassis was the SAAB 9000, up to 1991. Fiat Chroma did not last long, Lancia Thema was ok enough with the swan song being the V8 "Ferrari" variant, Alfa 164 had several versions sold in the US Considered one but ended up with the SAAB 9000 for a long list of reasons.. Busso V6 has a glorious song, but finicky to care for and the transaxles are a known problem area as are the timing system in the Busso V6. Of all those Busso powered Alfa Romeo's IMO, the Milano Verde was the best.. Only real problem issues are the Bosch electricals.. That power train in the Milano has proven to be 24 Hours of LeMons tested tough and durable.

As for the SAAB 9000 variant of the type 4, the 1991 is current mileage record holder at 440,000 miles.
www.saabnet.com

Saab High/Low Mileage Registry

Saab High/Low Mileage Registry on Saabnet.com - on the Internet Since 1988! Over 1 Million Pages of Saab Info, Bulletin Boards, Classifieds, and Much More!
www.saabnet.com

View attachment 76425


The original transaxle died at about 180K. 5th gear dissolved under acceleration. Saab being Saab after discovering this problem, re-designed that part of the transaxle, then made update kits available to all service facilities at reasonable cost. Updated/rebuilt transaxle installed at about 180K, that transaxle remains in the 9000 to this day.. Bottom end on that Saab B234 has never been apart. One valve job, timing chain and such rebuilt at about nee 300K.. No wonder why there is an strong aftermarket for Saab B204/B234 turbo motors being installed into everything from Boats to kit cars to BMW, Miata, and much more..

Fond of the Busso V6 in many ways and there was a time when Coswoth in the UK wanted to purchase the design, production rights and all related from Fiat to be used as a production race motor offering.. Fiat refused..


Bernice
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I've had 2 Milano Verdes. Yes, glorious engine and wonderful handling. I never had any issues with the transaxles, and the Bosch electronics were fine, except for one system: ABS. The ABS pump overheats and fails to keep up the pressure in the system. Normally I wouldn't care much (not a fan of ABS in general, especially on the track), but the ABS pressure also provided the power brake boost. So if you lose pressure, you effectively lose brakes. Yes, the brakes will work, but you need both feet to stop the car...
 
Well, I pulled the trigger. Hopefully it’s not pointing at my wallet. I’ll update when it arrives….
 
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