<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2><TABLE width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-TOP: 4px" vAlign=top colSpan=2>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Alignment settings.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]August 16 1999 at 10:09 AM[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + "b";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "v";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "b";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "a"; document.write("Stu Brennan"); // --> </SCRIPT>Stu Brennan <NOSCRIPT> Stu Brennan </NOSCRIPT> [/FONT]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom colSpan=3><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=3>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->I'm going to have the alignment done on my car and I was wondering if anybody has some recommendations that will work the best handling wise. I doubt the shop has ever seen an x1/9 so I was hoping someone with experience can tell me what works best and I'll have them set it up that way. Thanks Stu<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Author[/FONT]</TD><TD>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Reply[/FONT]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Ulix[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Stock<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]August 16 1999, 2:14 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Stu,
I'd recommend the stock settings.
The alignment shop should have them on file. Just in case that they don't, I would take a workshop manual with me. They list the settings.
Also, it's nice to use a shop that has a good 4-wheel alignment machine that provides a printout of all the numbers for you. While camber, caster etc. are not adjustable, it helps to find problems with your suspension such as worn top strut mounts.
Ulix
Yellow 74<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Arthur Shingler[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Speaking of shop manuals<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]August 16 1999, 8:39 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Speaking of shop manuals, which is the best manual for a do-it-yourselfer who can maticulously follow directions, regardless of whether he understands them or not. Is it the factory shop manual or one of the aftermarket books. I have an '81 fuel injected 1500. While not on the subject at hand, I thought I'd ask.
Art <!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "x";n54_em = n54_em + "1";n54_em = n54_em + "9";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "y";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "h";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "m"; document.write("Mac"); // --> </SCRIPT>Mac <NOSCRIPT> Mac </NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->manuals<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]August 18 1999, 6:10 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->While the Haynes Manual (out of print but still around) is one of the most common for the X, I would not rely on it alone!
Acutally, the best way is to have at least 2 different books so you can cross-reference in moments of doubt, making it less likely to be led astray by a misprint or inaccurate info. I have several (all have their +/- of course), a 1300 factory book, a 1500 factory book, A Haynes manual for US models as well as another Haynes for UK models, A Chiltons manual, among others... and I am convinced I can still screw up no matter how many books I have!
I'd think you could locate a factory manual on the web without too much hassle. -Mac.
<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Arthur Shingler[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Thanks<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]August 19 1999, 4:48 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->I will use your advice.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Stu Brennan[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Shop Manuals<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]August 17 1999, 9:17 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->I have the chilton manual and the hayes manual and they don't agree on lots of specs. I haven't compared them to see if they agree on these settings yet but if they don't which would you pick? Thanks Stu<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "x";n54_em = n54_em + "1";n54_em = n54_em + "9";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "y";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "h";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "m"; document.write("Mac"); // --> </SCRIPT>Mac <NOSCRIPT> Mac </NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->If I had to choose<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]August 19 1999, 9:39 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->If I had to pick between the Haynes manual and the Chilton manual, I would pick the factory manual
But even that one has several instances of misprinted tidbits, transposed numbers etc. Best to have at least 2 of any variety. You could probably get by okay just with the 2 you have, the Chilton's is usually right, but not by any great degree. I would just break down and get the factory book too if I didn't have it. What the heck, might as well - right? -Mac.
<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Stu Brennan[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Factory Manual ISBN number?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]August 20 1999, 9:28 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->I would like to get a factory manual but I didn't know they were available. Can you check your isbn number and let me know what it is. Thanks Stu
<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "x";n54_em = n54_em + "1";n54_em = n54_em + "9";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "y";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "h";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "m"; document.write("Mac"); // --> </SCRIPT>Mac <NOSCRIPT> Mac </NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 75px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->there is no ISBN number...<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]August 21 1999, 7:04 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 75px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Unfortunately, this is another one of those situations where we would "normally" be going to the parts department of our friendly local Fiat dealership to buy this item. As you know, there aren't any Fiat dealerships in North America these days, which complicates the prospect of visiting the parts department!
The factory shop manuals are not tracked by ISBN because they were never stocked as a bookstore item. You had to get them from Fiat of North America...
Nowadays, we get them many ways. Through used book stores, through independent Fiat parts vendors, from other Xheads etc.
You can usually find one on ebay, but they mainly are overpriced. Don't pay more than $40 or so for it if you bid on ebay.
My suggestion would be to scan the web. Post a "wanted" ad in the FS&W forum, or the 'parts wanted' forum over at mirafiori.com. I would not recommend buying one from overseas vendors etc. unless you verify in advance that it is for the North American model X1/9.
There are a few different factory shop manuals out there. One is by Fiat NA and is for the 1300cc X1/9 1974-1978, another Fiat one covers the 1500cc Fiat badged cars, and I think there may be one by Fiat specifically for the 1979 model too, since it was sort of a 'missing link' X between the 1300 carbed & 1500 FI here in the USA. Also there is a shop book which was published by IAI (the company that imported the Bertone cars into the USA) for the Bertone X1/9s of later years.
I have the '74-'78 Fiat one, and the IAI Bertone one. Between those 2, I find I don't often need anything else for either my '75 or my '80 - even though the IAI book is 'technically' not the right book for the '80, the similarities are great enough that it does the job. In the case that I might actually be stumped in BOTH books (which is rare), I still have the Haynes, Chiltons, and a couple of dusty others to fall back on.
Just poke around the vendor sites on the web, post a "wanted" ad or two in various forums, poke around ebay (who knows, sometimes nobody bids) and you're sure to come up with one. Many other Xheads often have an extra one for sale also, so cruise some X1/9 owners' homepages. Peace, -Mac.
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "v";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + "v";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "x";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "b";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "y";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "d";n54_em = n54_em + "u"; document.write("Dr. Steven Doellefeld"); // --> </SCRIPT>Dr. Steven Doellefeld <NOSCRIPT> Dr. Steven Doellefeld </NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 90px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->My manual<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]August 21 1999, 8:16 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 90px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Is a factory one... I got it from Vick Autosports for $50 or so. It's a high quality photocopy of the original, and came in a three hole binder. Aside from a few of the pages being out of order when it came, it's great.
HEy, speaking of that... if no one owns the copyright, does that mean we could make copies for (cheap) distribution to others? Mine has no copyright notice on it. Any lawyers or aspiring lawyers out there?
Steven<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Mac[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 105px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Copyrights<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]August 22 1999, 3:25 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 105px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->This is a potentially sticky issue, when it comes to copyrights on these and other materials that we commonly exchange. I am certain the copyright-holders would likely object to anyone duplicating/distributing their materials, but again, IAI no longer exists and Fiat of North America is now only a holding company in New York City with about half a dozen employees, and the Fiat R&D facility near Detroit, with a couple dozen more. I think anyone who would complain about our duplicating these things would only do so if A> they knew about it, and B> if we were trying to do it for profit. If we dupe it and distribute it for free (for example, reprints of magazine pages that we post in this forum etc.) and are doing it for the common good of our community of enthusiasts - and did I mention not making a profit - THEN it is most likely no one would care enough to object. IF we were running a full-scale reprint of the manuals and selling them to make profits, then I think that would not be wise without permission from the copyright holder (meaning they would either say no, or they would want a cut of the $$). I'm no lawyer, just professing common sense. If we are sharing materials amongst ourselves and fellow Xheads for no reason other than to help educate ourselves about the cars, and to aid ourselves in the efforts of maintaining them, then I personally don't believe anyone would object to that -especially if only on a small scale. If it got big they might object no matter what our reasons are (for example, Fiat's big lawsuit to force an enthusiast to surrender their ownership of the web address "abarth.com" regardless that he just wanted to use the URL as an enthusiast resource on the web)... Personally I wouldn't worry about it if, say, you're photocopying some pages for a friend for free. But that's about as far as I personally would feel comfortable going. -Mac.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "g";n54_em = n54_em + "_";n54_em = n54_em + "d";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "p";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "v";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "j";n54_em = n54_em + "p";n54_em = n54_em + "u";n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "m"; document.write("Gilles"); // --> </SCRIPT>Gilles <NOSCRIPT> Gilles </NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 120px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->X1/9 repair manual<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]August 23 1999, 11:46 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 120px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Hi there,
I actually have one of the IAP repair manuals and I often run into trouble due to the fact that my manual is mostly for the early X1/9's.
Not problem on most of the mechanicals, but in regards to the electric diagrams or the Bosh fuel injection system that is another story.
Several years back I ordered the Bosh troubleshooting manual from IAP, (it was great) then I lost it and IAP not longer carries it!
If you have a late X1/9's repair manual I will love to have a copy, I don't think that we should have any problem to get a group of 5 or maybe 10? X-heads that will be more than happy to share the printing costs to run five or ten sets of that repair manual. (I agree with Mac that if we don't do it for profit, we should not have any problems)
If you agree with this, please count me in for one copy thanks and best regards, Gilles<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Arthur Shingler[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 105px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->A possibly outdated legal approach<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]August 26 1999, 9:07 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 105px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Did someone say "lawyer?" My father is fond of the one that goes ... (Q) How do you know if a lawyer is lieing? (A) Are his lips moving?
Actually, as a lawyer, or attorney as I like to say ("lawyer" sounds too much like "liar" - particularly in the Southeastern states), the question of whether one has violated another person or entity's copyright in a written work is not difficult to answer, unless the law has changed dramatically since law school in the early 90s -- that was only a few years ago, I keep reminding myself.
This is a simple explanation. A copyright is just that -- the right to copy. The right to copy is created for any given written work upon its being written (don't confuse patent rights or trademark "rights" with copyrights). Copyright law is principally based in federal law -- the "Copyright Act." Under the Copyright Act, ownership of a copyright is not eternal but limited in time (in '95, protection was calculated as life of the author plus 50 years -- it's longer now, I believe, but I'm unsure without doing research what it is). The most common error associated with copyright law that we generally make is thinking that someone has to "copyright" a work for it to be protected, i.e., the belief that a work must be sent to Washington for registration for it to be protected. This mistaken belief is usually coupled with also incorrect notion that if a "C" in a circle is not to be found on the work, it's free for copying.
Not so. If you didn't create the work, didn't buy the right to copy, or haven't been granted such right, any copying is a violation of the owner's copyright.
The question was whether it was o.k. to copy hard to find shop manuals for us to share with each other, which sounds a lot better than paying 50 or 60 bucks to Vick (a great supplier by the way) for a photocopy. The easy answer (i'm not looking for a legal out -- at least not until one or more of you gets "dinged" by Fiat) is that such copying likely violates Fiat's (I assume Fiat owns the copyright) copyright to the manuals.
Damages can be nasty in copyright cases. Even if there are no "actual" damages except for the loss of a sale or royalty, the Copyright Act prescribes what is called "statutory damages" which act much like a fine, except it is paid to the copyright owner. Again, in '95, I believe the minimum statutory damages were not less than $500 in cases of absolute ignorance and somewhere around $100,000 for willful conduct. Attorneys fees can even be awarded to the copyright owner in certain situations.
I, for one, would not want to get stuck with that sort of a problem. Especially when Fiat, though they abandaned us in the U.S., seems so willing to protect its rights, even against some of its most devoted fans. I'm sure the folks at the old "FiatPlus" (now C. Obert and Co. - a tremendous resource) would agree. I may be mistaken, but I think they were forced to spend what was probably not a small sum on attorney fees, defending themselves from Fiat, who didn't like that Obert & Co. were using the name FiatPlus. Such conduct on the part of Fiat, if I am correct, was really uncalled for in my opinion. Obert & Co. love Fiats and have done a great deal to keep these machines alive in this country, including providing free information over the web on various common problems we face. Fiat itself should be glad people like Obert & Co. are keeping the flame alive for these little cars.
Enough of that. I merely wanted to provide some insight. Hope it was helpful, although I bet none of you has read this far. In fact, I suspect I lost all of you after that gawdawful joke a the top.
Best,
Arthur
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Mac[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 120px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->I read it!<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]September 7 1999, 11:22 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 120px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->thanks for the insight too! -Mac.
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Arthur Shingler[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 135px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->I can't believe anyone read it !<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]September 15 1999, 5:22 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 135px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Thanks!
A<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
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[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]August 16 1999 at 10:09 AM[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + "b";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "v";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "b";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "a"; document.write("Stu Brennan"); // --> </SCRIPT>Stu Brennan <NOSCRIPT> Stu Brennan </NOSCRIPT> [/FONT]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom colSpan=3><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=3>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->I'm going to have the alignment done on my car and I was wondering if anybody has some recommendations that will work the best handling wise. I doubt the shop has ever seen an x1/9 so I was hoping someone with experience can tell me what works best and I'll have them set it up that way. Thanks Stu<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
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[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Stock<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]August 16 1999, 2:14 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Stu,
I'd recommend the stock settings.
The alignment shop should have them on file. Just in case that they don't, I would take a workshop manual with me. They list the settings.
Also, it's nice to use a shop that has a good 4-wheel alignment machine that provides a printout of all the numbers for you. While camber, caster etc. are not adjustable, it helps to find problems with your suspension such as worn top strut mounts.
Ulix
Yellow 74<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Speaking of shop manuals<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]August 16 1999, 8:39 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Speaking of shop manuals, which is the best manual for a do-it-yourselfer who can maticulously follow directions, regardless of whether he understands them or not. Is it the factory shop manual or one of the aftermarket books. I have an '81 fuel injected 1500. While not on the subject at hand, I thought I'd ask.
Art <!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->manuals<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]August 18 1999, 6:10 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->While the Haynes Manual (out of print but still around) is one of the most common for the X, I would not rely on it alone!
Acutally, the best way is to have at least 2 different books so you can cross-reference in moments of doubt, making it less likely to be led astray by a misprint or inaccurate info. I have several (all have their +/- of course), a 1300 factory book, a 1500 factory book, A Haynes manual for US models as well as another Haynes for UK models, A Chiltons manual, among others... and I am convinced I can still screw up no matter how many books I have!
I'd think you could locate a factory manual on the web without too much hassle. -Mac.
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Thanks<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]August 19 1999, 4:48 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->I will use your advice.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Shop Manuals<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]August 17 1999, 9:17 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->I have the chilton manual and the hayes manual and they don't agree on lots of specs. I haven't compared them to see if they agree on these settings yet but if they don't which would you pick? Thanks Stu<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->If I had to choose<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]August 19 1999, 9:39 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->If I had to pick between the Haynes manual and the Chilton manual, I would pick the factory manual
But even that one has several instances of misprinted tidbits, transposed numbers etc. Best to have at least 2 of any variety. You could probably get by okay just with the 2 you have, the Chilton's is usually right, but not by any great degree. I would just break down and get the factory book too if I didn't have it. What the heck, might as well - right? -Mac.
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Factory Manual ISBN number?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]August 20 1999, 9:28 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->I would like to get a factory manual but I didn't know they were available. Can you check your isbn number and let me know what it is. Thanks Stu
<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 75px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->there is no ISBN number...<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]August 21 1999, 7:04 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 75px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Unfortunately, this is another one of those situations where we would "normally" be going to the parts department of our friendly local Fiat dealership to buy this item. As you know, there aren't any Fiat dealerships in North America these days, which complicates the prospect of visiting the parts department!
The factory shop manuals are not tracked by ISBN because they were never stocked as a bookstore item. You had to get them from Fiat of North America...
Nowadays, we get them many ways. Through used book stores, through independent Fiat parts vendors, from other Xheads etc.
You can usually find one on ebay, but they mainly are overpriced. Don't pay more than $40 or so for it if you bid on ebay.
My suggestion would be to scan the web. Post a "wanted" ad in the FS&W forum, or the 'parts wanted' forum over at mirafiori.com. I would not recommend buying one from overseas vendors etc. unless you verify in advance that it is for the North American model X1/9.
There are a few different factory shop manuals out there. One is by Fiat NA and is for the 1300cc X1/9 1974-1978, another Fiat one covers the 1500cc Fiat badged cars, and I think there may be one by Fiat specifically for the 1979 model too, since it was sort of a 'missing link' X between the 1300 carbed & 1500 FI here in the USA. Also there is a shop book which was published by IAI (the company that imported the Bertone cars into the USA) for the Bertone X1/9s of later years.
I have the '74-'78 Fiat one, and the IAI Bertone one. Between those 2, I find I don't often need anything else for either my '75 or my '80 - even though the IAI book is 'technically' not the right book for the '80, the similarities are great enough that it does the job. In the case that I might actually be stumped in BOTH books (which is rare), I still have the Haynes, Chiltons, and a couple of dusty others to fall back on.
Just poke around the vendor sites on the web, post a "wanted" ad or two in various forums, poke around ebay (who knows, sometimes nobody bids) and you're sure to come up with one. Many other Xheads often have an extra one for sale also, so cruise some X1/9 owners' homepages. Peace, -Mac.
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[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]August 21 1999, 8:16 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 90px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Is a factory one... I got it from Vick Autosports for $50 or so. It's a high quality photocopy of the original, and came in a three hole binder. Aside from a few of the pages being out of order when it came, it's great.
HEy, speaking of that... if no one owns the copyright, does that mean we could make copies for (cheap) distribution to others? Mine has no copyright notice on it. Any lawyers or aspiring lawyers out there?
Steven<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
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[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]August 22 1999, 3:25 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 105px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->This is a potentially sticky issue, when it comes to copyrights on these and other materials that we commonly exchange. I am certain the copyright-holders would likely object to anyone duplicating/distributing their materials, but again, IAI no longer exists and Fiat of North America is now only a holding company in New York City with about half a dozen employees, and the Fiat R&D facility near Detroit, with a couple dozen more. I think anyone who would complain about our duplicating these things would only do so if A> they knew about it, and B> if we were trying to do it for profit. If we dupe it and distribute it for free (for example, reprints of magazine pages that we post in this forum etc.) and are doing it for the common good of our community of enthusiasts - and did I mention not making a profit - THEN it is most likely no one would care enough to object. IF we were running a full-scale reprint of the manuals and selling them to make profits, then I think that would not be wise without permission from the copyright holder (meaning they would either say no, or they would want a cut of the $$). I'm no lawyer, just professing common sense. If we are sharing materials amongst ourselves and fellow Xheads for no reason other than to help educate ourselves about the cars, and to aid ourselves in the efforts of maintaining them, then I personally don't believe anyone would object to that -especially if only on a small scale. If it got big they might object no matter what our reasons are (for example, Fiat's big lawsuit to force an enthusiast to surrender their ownership of the web address "abarth.com" regardless that he just wanted to use the URL as an enthusiast resource on the web)... Personally I wouldn't worry about it if, say, you're photocopying some pages for a friend for free. But that's about as far as I personally would feel comfortable going. -Mac.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
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[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]August 23 1999, 11:46 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 120px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Hi there,
I actually have one of the IAP repair manuals and I often run into trouble due to the fact that my manual is mostly for the early X1/9's.
Not problem on most of the mechanicals, but in regards to the electric diagrams or the Bosh fuel injection system that is another story.
Several years back I ordered the Bosh troubleshooting manual from IAP, (it was great) then I lost it and IAP not longer carries it!
If you have a late X1/9's repair manual I will love to have a copy, I don't think that we should have any problem to get a group of 5 or maybe 10? X-heads that will be more than happy to share the printing costs to run five or ten sets of that repair manual. (I agree with Mac that if we don't do it for profit, we should not have any problems)
If you agree with this, please count me in for one copy thanks and best regards, Gilles<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
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[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]August 26 1999, 9:07 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 105px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Did someone say "lawyer?" My father is fond of the one that goes ... (Q) How do you know if a lawyer is lieing? (A) Are his lips moving?
Actually, as a lawyer, or attorney as I like to say ("lawyer" sounds too much like "liar" - particularly in the Southeastern states), the question of whether one has violated another person or entity's copyright in a written work is not difficult to answer, unless the law has changed dramatically since law school in the early 90s -- that was only a few years ago, I keep reminding myself.
This is a simple explanation. A copyright is just that -- the right to copy. The right to copy is created for any given written work upon its being written (don't confuse patent rights or trademark "rights" with copyrights). Copyright law is principally based in federal law -- the "Copyright Act." Under the Copyright Act, ownership of a copyright is not eternal but limited in time (in '95, protection was calculated as life of the author plus 50 years -- it's longer now, I believe, but I'm unsure without doing research what it is). The most common error associated with copyright law that we generally make is thinking that someone has to "copyright" a work for it to be protected, i.e., the belief that a work must be sent to Washington for registration for it to be protected. This mistaken belief is usually coupled with also incorrect notion that if a "C" in a circle is not to be found on the work, it's free for copying.
Not so. If you didn't create the work, didn't buy the right to copy, or haven't been granted such right, any copying is a violation of the owner's copyright.
The question was whether it was o.k. to copy hard to find shop manuals for us to share with each other, which sounds a lot better than paying 50 or 60 bucks to Vick (a great supplier by the way) for a photocopy. The easy answer (i'm not looking for a legal out -- at least not until one or more of you gets "dinged" by Fiat) is that such copying likely violates Fiat's (I assume Fiat owns the copyright) copyright to the manuals.
Damages can be nasty in copyright cases. Even if there are no "actual" damages except for the loss of a sale or royalty, the Copyright Act prescribes what is called "statutory damages" which act much like a fine, except it is paid to the copyright owner. Again, in '95, I believe the minimum statutory damages were not less than $500 in cases of absolute ignorance and somewhere around $100,000 for willful conduct. Attorneys fees can even be awarded to the copyright owner in certain situations.
I, for one, would not want to get stuck with that sort of a problem. Especially when Fiat, though they abandaned us in the U.S., seems so willing to protect its rights, even against some of its most devoted fans. I'm sure the folks at the old "FiatPlus" (now C. Obert and Co. - a tremendous resource) would agree. I may be mistaken, but I think they were forced to spend what was probably not a small sum on attorney fees, defending themselves from Fiat, who didn't like that Obert & Co. were using the name FiatPlus. Such conduct on the part of Fiat, if I am correct, was really uncalled for in my opinion. Obert & Co. love Fiats and have done a great deal to keep these machines alive in this country, including providing free information over the web on various common problems we face. Fiat itself should be glad people like Obert & Co. are keeping the flame alive for these little cars.
Enough of that. I merely wanted to provide some insight. Hope it was helpful, although I bet none of you has read this far. In fact, I suspect I lost all of you after that gawdawful joke a the top.
Best,
Arthur
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
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[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]September 7 1999, 11:22 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 120px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->thanks for the insight too!
-Mac.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
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[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]September 15 1999, 5:22 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 135px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Thanks!
A<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
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