All the Recent Coil over talk has me confused. Watch the video
- Thread starter jjay911
- Start date
Dr.Auto
Matthew Walsh
Sorry JJ
I guess I don't really know what part your confused about. Please clarify.
As far as moving up the strut mount on the body that is good in the sense that you are lowering the car but still maintaining suspension travel.
Your spring perch location depends on the spring length you use.
I don't know what your goal is with the car. I assume you just want to lower it a few inches and be able to firm up the ride a bit by being able to use universal coil springs.... which is the real reason why you would want to convert to "adjustable coil-overs". You have a big spring selection to choose from then.
I would just warn that whatever damper you think you want to use.... that you would research its damping capabilities and pick a spring that it will work with... other wise the common mistake is to use a spring too stiff for the damper and drive around in a pogo stick.
I guess I don't really know what part your confused about. Please clarify.
As far as moving up the strut mount on the body that is good in the sense that you are lowering the car but still maintaining suspension travel.
Your spring perch location depends on the spring length you use.
I don't know what your goal is with the car. I assume you just want to lower it a few inches and be able to firm up the ride a bit by being able to use universal coil springs.... which is the real reason why you would want to convert to "adjustable coil-overs". You have a big spring selection to choose from then.
I would just warn that whatever damper you think you want to use.... that you would research its damping capabilities and pick a spring that it will work with... other wise the common mistake is to use a spring too stiff for the damper and drive around in a pogo stick.
racerx
Autoxer
well
from what I see you have no room to lower the car any lower than what is now if it becomes necessary where on the old setup there is.the part where you moved the lower mount is ok for the front but on the back you won't be able to do that because it will hit the axle. the reson the old shock looks like it got cut and welded back together is because thay wanted to lower the car and still maintain shock travel.
there are many reasons to go to an adjustable spring perch one is being able to use universal coil springs so you can get different spring rates depending on how you want to setup the car.another is to raise or lower the front or back or side to side or corner to corner.again depending how you want to set up the car.also thees types of changes may be necessary depending on how the car is reacting on the race cores.
I don't know what brand of shock you have but I know for a fact that KYB's can handle 450# front 350# rear spring and the ride quality on the street is fine.I've got Koin's with 600# front 450# rear with no sway bars and drive it on the street all the time I don't think it's a ruff ride at all and it definitely doesn't pogo on me.
from what I see you have no room to lower the car any lower than what is now if it becomes necessary where on the old setup there is.the part where you moved the lower mount is ok for the front but on the back you won't be able to do that because it will hit the axle. the reson the old shock looks like it got cut and welded back together is because thay wanted to lower the car and still maintain shock travel.
there are many reasons to go to an adjustable spring perch one is being able to use universal coil springs so you can get different spring rates depending on how you want to setup the car.another is to raise or lower the front or back or side to side or corner to corner.again depending how you want to set up the car.also thees types of changes may be necessary depending on how the car is reacting on the race cores.
I don't know what brand of shock you have but I know for a fact that KYB's can handle 450# front 350# rear spring and the ride quality on the street is fine.I've got Koin's with 600# front 450# rear with no sway bars and drive it on the street all the time I don't think it's a ruff ride at all and it definitely doesn't pogo on me.
fiatmonkey
Tim Hoover
JJ - I have a couple comments and some questions:
The guy that modded the blue strut housing; what was his reasoning for raising the mounting point? I understand why you lowered the perch but not sure what was to gain with the mounts going up? I know they are for the front so maybe it's a design just for the front that I am not understanding.
On the shock that came off the car; I think that is although basic, a good design but perhaps not in execution (you said it handles bad). What is holding the adjuster onto the strut? It looks like its just resting on the top of the mounting point.
I have not come across a strut/coil-over setup that had the mount points so high for an X. I thought the stock mount points in my X were already too high
at least for the rears.Merry Christmas,
Tim
Dr.Auto
Matthew Walsh
racerx I also run high spring rates on the street. 600/500. but I have VERY good dampers that properly dampen the spring rates being used. This is key.
JJ, if you want your car to handle like on rails..... you will need to spend money. You need to start the project with finding good quality dampers that will have valving that will work on your car and pick springs that will work with it. problem becomes that and real good damper will not fit in the fiat strut tube because the dampers are usually bigger in diameter than the Fiat strut tube. (I'm talking REAL dampers with possibly even damper adjustment. Koni sport or race dampers would be my choice sport/race depending on the spring rate you use. I'm using Advance Design dampers... work well... wanted Koni but were unavailable at the time.) So bigger custom made strut tubes become a must.
And I'll get flak for this...... but putting KYB or some damper like that and trying to run a stiff spring on it will perform better than the stock setup. But it will not be correct in the big picture. in the end you will be playing the spring vs damper rates against each other. best thing... use Koni's and have them custom valves for the application.
Leaving the adjustable perches on the shock mount not being mounted down is fine. It works.... and doesn't move because its always under spring pressure. Mine is like this.
But in the end .... after good springs/dampers are picked specific for the application. Alignment and setup are very important along with tires. at that point you'll have to get ride of worn out suspension stuff that offers deflection and adversely effects alignment angles under load.
fiatmonkey: moving the strut mount up on the tube like that lowers the car without changing piston stroke in the damper thus allowing all available suspension travel available vs cutting the spring and loosing usable suspension travel. And yes.... this only works on t he front of the car..... but in my opinion its a real nice fix to put the front end at the ride height it's supposed to be to level out the car and get the nose down without effecting ride quality by cutting springs.
JJ, if you want your car to handle like on rails..... you will need to spend money. You need to start the project with finding good quality dampers that will have valving that will work on your car and pick springs that will work with it. problem becomes that and real good damper will not fit in the fiat strut tube because the dampers are usually bigger in diameter than the Fiat strut tube. (I'm talking REAL dampers with possibly even damper adjustment. Koni sport or race dampers would be my choice sport/race depending on the spring rate you use. I'm using Advance Design dampers... work well... wanted Koni but were unavailable at the time.) So bigger custom made strut tubes become a must.
And I'll get flak for this...... but putting KYB or some damper like that and trying to run a stiff spring on it will perform better than the stock setup. But it will not be correct in the big picture. in the end you will be playing the spring vs damper rates against each other. best thing... use Koni's and have them custom valves for the application.
Leaving the adjustable perches on the shock mount not being mounted down is fine. It works.... and doesn't move because its always under spring pressure. Mine is like this.
But in the end .... after good springs/dampers are picked specific for the application. Alignment and setup are very important along with tires. at that point you'll have to get ride of worn out suspension stuff that offers deflection and adversely effects alignment angles under load.
fiatmonkey: moving the strut mount up on the tube like that lowers the car without changing piston stroke in the damper thus allowing all available suspension travel available vs cutting the spring and loosing usable suspension travel. And yes.... this only works on t he front of the car..... but in my opinion its a real nice fix to put the front end at the ride height it's supposed to be to level out the car and get the nose down without effecting ride quality by cutting springs.
Dr.Auto
Matthew Walsh
JJ.... before you spend too much time in the shop cutting and modifying stuff.... I suggest that maybe you do some reading on suspension dynamics. Understand things like normal alignment angles and roll center. Why body roll is bad on our cars with a Mcpherson strut setup and how to get the best grip in our cars you have to get the car to lay fairly flat so it doesn't roll and adversely effects alignment angles when this happens. Which is why you want good struts with spring rates that keep the car from rolling to much. But also realize that there are trade offs and decide whats important to your project, what you can live with and what you can sacrifice to gain performance in other areas.
In any case.... I recommend you plan on using Koni's no matter what your goals are. they are rebuild able and custom valved to any spring rate that you choose. but you will have to build custom tubes to house them. Or contact Jim Susko at G-Force Engineering and he can set you up.
In any case.... I recommend you plan on using Koni's no matter what your goals are. they are rebuild able and custom valved to any spring rate that you choose. but you will have to build custom tubes to house them. Or contact Jim Susko at G-Force Engineering and he can set you up.
abec
Wil
*DrAuto - Bilstein rabbit inserts work great inside of the 74 strut housings. I would also argue that their monotube construction is superior to koni design.
*JJ the location of the mounting ears are not going to be a big performance issue. The old setup and the new setup will perform the same if using the same springs & inserts. The location of the mount only helps lower the car a bit more before you see any strut travel issues.
I would think the performance issues you were noticing might have to do with overall balance of the car, alignment, and/or bad struts.
*JJ the location of the mounting ears are not going to be a big performance issue. The old setup and the new setup will perform the same if using the same springs & inserts. The location of the mount only helps lower the car a bit more before you see any strut travel issues.
I would think the performance issues you were noticing might have to do with overall balance of the car, alignment, and/or bad struts.
jjay911
True Classic
I like the idea of Using the same tubes. Another challenge is the fact that some of them do not want to come out. The big nut holding them in does not want to turn. Good thing I have 4 sets of these. I also have the fantasy of putting coil overs on the Front of the 850 but That will be a project for much later. I think I will be happy having the car handle well with shocks and springs that work and the ride height correct. So maybe the bilstein rabbits might be the trick. Where do I find those? The next thing to do is figure out where I can find more springs and pirches to fit in since I want to do this set up on all three cars. Thanks. Jeff
P.S. Working on finishing the installation of the engine and all things necessary to get the Car running tomorrow if anyone wants to come supervise or turn a wrench..
P.S. Working on finishing the installation of the engine and all things necessary to get the Car running tomorrow if anyone wants to come supervise or turn a wrench..
After using and re-valving Konis, I would much rather use a quality mono-tube shock like a Bilstein, not that the Koni's were bad by any stretch, just a faster, more consistent initial response from the bilsteins. The Bilsteins work great with a range of spring rates as well, say, up to twice the stock rate, from my experience.
Has anyone compared the valving of the early Rabbit sport units to the standard Bilsteins? It looked like there was a lot of rebound control in the sport units that might not serve the driver if a rear/mid engined car when installed in the rear, however, a very good match for the front.
Those KYBs are not worth the $, as they are only a quarter of what a Bilstein or Koni is at nearly the same price. Valving is generic, non model specific, 50/50 valving.
When the control arms are pointing upward, from the center of the car, while parked, you are likely not going to gain any benefits from lowering. This situation is common with typical lowering springs, and results in an altered roll center, causing more of a side to side pitching of the car as the suspension moves over bumps.
Try to keep the control arms as close to level with the ground, and you'll be much better off my friend.
Has anyone compared the valving of the early Rabbit sport units to the standard Bilsteins? It looked like there was a lot of rebound control in the sport units that might not serve the driver if a rear/mid engined car when installed in the rear, however, a very good match for the front.
Those KYBs are not worth the $, as they are only a quarter of what a Bilstein or Koni is at nearly the same price. Valving is generic, non model specific, 50/50 valving.
When the control arms are pointing upward, from the center of the car, while parked, you are likely not going to gain any benefits from lowering. This situation is common with typical lowering springs, and results in an altered roll center, causing more of a side to side pitching of the car as the suspension moves over bumps.
Try to keep the control arms as close to level with the ground, and you'll be much better off my friend.
Dr.Auto
Matthew Walsh
Are Bilstein's rebuildable or r-evalvable to handle a 600inlb spring? Just asking because i don't know.
I do know that from what I've seen from the Bilstein setup is that it's not a bad way to go..... IF i can get the struts valved how I want.
And I have also noticed that the stroke length seams even longer than a stock x strut. with that being the case.... um you can get serious suspension droop when unloaded guaranteed to unload and float the coil spring that a helper spring probably won't even be able to fix I would think.... but maybe I'm wrong.
I would be curious to see what a dyno sheet for a bilstein looks like. I have dealt with Bilstein's on a Honda Civic.... and they work well.... for a daily driver. But there was no adjust ability on them... they just was what they was so to say.
I do know that from what I've seen from the Bilstein setup is that it's not a bad way to go..... IF i can get the struts valved how I want.
And I have also noticed that the stroke length seams even longer than a stock x strut. with that being the case.... um you can get serious suspension droop when unloaded guaranteed to unload and float the coil spring that a helper spring probably won't even be able to fix I would think.... but maybe I'm wrong.
I would be curious to see what a dyno sheet for a bilstein looks like. I have dealt with Bilstein's on a Honda Civic.... and they work well.... for a daily driver. But there was no adjust ability on them... they just was what they was so to say.
There are (were) other vehicles that used the same strut cartridge dimensions, like the Porsche 924, 924 Turbo, the second generation Golf/Jetta. I would look to those models, and maybe try and get some specs from the Lotus Elise guys, since the cars are very similar.
Re-valving is around $80 each, would save on shipping if done at the time of purchase. Heck, I'd be tempted to just tell the guys at Bilstein that you want what the track pack-lotus has for valving, after checking/confirming the effective force stuff; length of control arms, spring locations between the two cars.
There's a spring company that is called Swift, makes springs of a smaller wire diameter than would be typical of a certain rate, and compensates with a more radical pitch. I was sourcing springs from Mazdas years ago, before this company existed, since they used this principle as well. The concept works, and results in better adhesion.
Re-valving is around $80 each, would save on shipping if done at the time of purchase. Heck, I'd be tempted to just tell the guys at Bilstein that you want what the track pack-lotus has for valving, after checking/confirming the effective force stuff; length of control arms, spring locations between the two cars.
There's a spring company that is called Swift, makes springs of a smaller wire diameter than would be typical of a certain rate, and compensates with a more radical pitch. I was sourcing springs from Mazdas years ago, before this company existed, since they used this principle as well. The concept works, and results in better adhesion.
wannabfast
Thai with a 78 in MN
by raising the lower pickup and lowering the lower perch it makes it even lower than the old setup
i doubt it will help you handle any better, the main thing is spring rate and dampers, ride height sort of helps, but if you go too low you run into it being way too tail happy as the suspension has no room for movement
i doubt it will help you handle any better, the main thing is spring rate and dampers, ride height sort of helps, but if you go too low you run into it being way too tail happy as the suspension has no room for movement
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
Moving the upright mount "up" on the stock strut tube was a PBS suspension mod. The ideal was to preserve as much suspension travel a possible while lowering the car... Much of the PBS x1/ race car book's section of suspension mods and chassis mods were focused on lowering the car around it's suspension and preserving as much suspension travel as possible.... which is not the best thing for a track car, road or rally car, yes.. in doing this PBS never got near the best performance from the x1/9 chassis.
One the rear, have some one make and weld on a two piece steel ring to support the aluminum threaded collar. Or, in short time, the aluminum collar will pound itself into the steel upright mount.
Bernice
One the rear, have some one make and weld on a two piece steel ring to support the aluminum threaded collar. Or, in short time, the aluminum collar will pound itself into the steel upright mount.
Bernice
JJ - I have a couple comments and some questions:
The guy that modded the blue strut housing; what was his reasoning for raising the mounting point? I understand why you lowered the perch but not sure what was to gain with the mounts going up? I know they are for the front so maybe it's a design just for the front that I am not understanding.
On the shock that came off the car; I think that is although basic, a good design but perhaps not in execution (you said it handles bad). What is holding the adjuster onto the strut? It looks like its just resting on the top of the mounting point.
I have not come across a strut/coil-over setup that had the mount points so high for an X. I thought the stock mount points in my X were already too high
Merry Christmas,
Tim
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
This is correct.. Stock OE replacements from KYB will NOT control springs much above mid-200 lb/in and they have the wrong dampening ration for a performance or track car. They are fine for stock OE replacement, but they are NOT performance dampers.
Significantly increasing the spring rate from stock.. will require matching dampers or it can easily make the chassis behave WORST.
I pulled a mix and match (used Koni yellow front dampers from a Volvo V70 and MADE them fit. Not really recommended) for the LeMons racer due to cost constraints, but it works OK for LeMons racing using 550 lb/in springs... I would not recommend this for a proper race car.
For those who want good performance dampers, it will cost no less than $2,000 to get four corners done properly. Koni 8611's custom Bilstien, Ohlins or any other similar good damper is going to be expensive.
Bernice
Significantly increasing the spring rate from stock.. will require matching dampers or it can easily make the chassis behave WORST.
I pulled a mix and match (used Koni yellow front dampers from a Volvo V70 and MADE them fit. Not really recommended) for the LeMons racer due to cost constraints, but it works OK for LeMons racing using 550 lb/in springs... I would not recommend this for a proper race car.
For those who want good performance dampers, it will cost no less than $2,000 to get four corners done properly. Koni 8611's custom Bilstien, Ohlins or any other similar good damper is going to be expensive.
Bernice
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
One thing to consider on using stock strut tubes with inserts and increasing the spring rate. The stock strut tubes are made of 2mm wall, seam welded/rolled steel. They have a tendency to bend under heavy loading. Over the years, I have seen a number of bent strut tubes from stock cars that had removable damper inserts.
My vote would be to bit the $ and spend for larger diameter strut tubes. They will allow a wider range of damper inserts and significantly increase the strength and stiffness of the strut assembly which will help keep the suspension in check under cornering load.
Those $24, Honda and etc lowering kits on evil-bay work OK. These have a proven LeMons racing life span of 2-3 races, then the they tend to mush all over from the pounding. On a street or Auto-crosser, they will last much longer. Or use the more expensive ones that are of better quality and last longer.
Bernice
Bernice
My vote would be to bit the $ and spend for larger diameter strut tubes. They will allow a wider range of damper inserts and significantly increase the strength and stiffness of the strut assembly which will help keep the suspension in check under cornering load.
Those $24, Honda and etc lowering kits on evil-bay work OK. These have a proven LeMons racing life span of 2-3 races, then the they tend to mush all over from the pounding. On a street or Auto-crosser, they will last much longer. Or use the more expensive ones that are of better quality and last longer.
Bernice
Bernice
I like the idea of Using the same tubes. Another challenge is the fact that some of them do not want to come out. The big nut holding them in does not want to turn. Good thing I have 4 sets of these. I also have the fantasy of putting coil overs on the Front of the 850 but That will be a project for much later. I think I will be happy having the car handle well with shocks and springs that work and the ride height correct. So maybe the bilstein rabbits might be the trick. Where do I find those? The next thing to do is figure out where I can find more springs and pirches to fit in since I want to do this set up on all three cars. Thanks. Jeff
P.S. Working on finishing the installation of the engine and all things necessary to get the Car running tomorrow if anyone wants to come supervise or turn a wrench..
Dr.Auto
Matthew Walsh
Now that you mention that... I do recall the strut tubes that Jim Susko made for me has a small ring welded on the body just slightly about the upright mount so that my sleeve doesn't sit on the mount but on the ring. But it's real close to sitting on the mount.... giving the ability to run as long of a threaded sleeve as possible to allow for any adjustment needed.
I was origionally going to go with the Koni 8611 series race inserts. but the problem at the time is they werent out yet. Just the sports. And the sports didn't have the valving to deal with the spring rates.... would have to get revelved and then loose the warranty on them. So I instead went with the double adjustable rebound/compression Advance design insterts through ground control. They work very well... but I found out the hard way that the shaft seal is very delicate. I wasn't using a dust boot and some dirt got between the land nut on tube and seal and now two of my dampers are leaking. I need to rebuild them and install dust shields so it doesn't happen again.
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
Koni introduced the 8610 damper initially which is a single adjustable "universal application damper". While these can be re-valved as required, they lack independent adjustment for compression / rebound found in the 8611 that was introduced shortly after. Regardless, the Koni 86xx series is considered a budget racer damper that offers good value for the $.
Koni offers their 2816/17 series damper as "real race dampers. These are out of the budget for most folks as these cost nearly $2,000USD per damper or $8,000USD for all four corners.
http://www.koni.com/214.html
Lesser known suppliers like ZF/SACHS also offer similar dampers.
http://www.zf.com/corporate/en/prod...acing_shocks_rds/sachs_racing_shocks_rds.html
These are some of the dampers serious race teams use in their cars.
Piston gland seals are subject to failure due to dirt and... entry. Do install a boot between the strut body and damper piston rod top to prevent stuff from entering and acting as grinding compound between the piston/gland seal/and possibly the damper internals.
One possible low cost solution is to use motorcycle fork bellows. They might fit, don't cost a lot, can be cut to length and are easily available.
Curious, are the Advance Design dampers digressive, progressive or linear and are there any valving options for this?
Bernice
Koni offers their 2816/17 series damper as "real race dampers. These are out of the budget for most folks as these cost nearly $2,000USD per damper or $8,000USD for all four corners.
http://www.koni.com/214.html
Lesser known suppliers like ZF/SACHS also offer similar dampers.
http://www.zf.com/corporate/en/prod...acing_shocks_rds/sachs_racing_shocks_rds.html
These are some of the dampers serious race teams use in their cars.
Piston gland seals are subject to failure due to dirt and... entry. Do install a boot between the strut body and damper piston rod top to prevent stuff from entering and acting as grinding compound between the piston/gland seal/and possibly the damper internals.
One possible low cost solution is to use motorcycle fork bellows. They might fit, don't cost a lot, can be cut to length and are easily available.
Curious, are the Advance Design dampers digressive, progressive or linear and are there any valving options for this?
Bernice