Alternator changeover -> performance gain

Mark Plaia

True Classic
During the trip to attend the Oregon 2010 meet last weekend, I had two systems failures on the car.

On the way down to the meet, a 225 mile trip, the wide band oxygen sensor system went on the blink. It was set up to provide closed loop feedback to the Megasquirt controller. Fortunately, my control map is very close to optimum, and running in open loop mode was not fundamentally different than having the closed loop control. However, light throttle running and descending hills on the overrun led to some exhaust popping and rough running. But not bad. The control unit for the sensor system is what went out, so it is now back in the hands of Innovate Motorsports for repair.

Then, as I fired the car up to leave at the end of the meet, the alternator decided that it did not want to work right. It was sick, but did not die. Symptoms were not enough charging at idle, and too much charging at speed - approximately 15.2-15.5 volt. I found that if I ran the heater fan (not a bad thing on a hot day) that the load pulled the charge rate down to the desired 13.8-14.2 volt. This is a Delco/GM conversion alternator. I took the alternator to a local shop and had it tested. The test machine showed exactly the conditions that I saw on the road. When they tore it down and checked, the cost of the parts to rebuild was higher than their cost for a fresh GM remanufacture alternator.

I had the shop check in to the possibility of fitting a larger pulley to the alternator. The pulley that was on it was sized for a GM V-8 application that turns considerably less RPM than my 1300. The ratio that was on it ran the alternator at approximately 2.25 times crank speed. So, when I shifted at 8000 RPM, the alternator was turning about 18000 RPM, right at the recommended upper limit. The alternator maximum output is about 6-7000 RPM. I obtained a pulley that is about 50% larger diameter than was on it and lowered the drive ratio to about 1.72 times crank speed. This lowered the maximum alternator speed by over 4000 RPM, and puts the alternator right at it's maximum charging RPM at highway speed. Additionally, my idle RPM went up 180 RPM. :sun: That means that there is less load on the motor, and I have to say that, so far, the car seems a bit zippier.

So, even though it cost me some money, I now have a rock solid alternator and a bit more performance to boot.

Ciao,
 
Great info Mark.

Question; the final pully that you fitted to the alternator was bigger, smaller or equal you think to a stock pully? I gather larger but I have never done a GM replacement so I can't say.

Thanks,
Tim
 
Interesting data

Mark - do you know offhand which alternator model you have now? I have a Delco 10si 63amp mocked up on a spare engine. The bolt-on pulley measures 67mm outside flange/42mm inside approx.

A 55A Marelli sitting on the pile - likely from a 79X - measured 68/43mm so very close to the Delco. I didn't calc ratios since i'm uncertain which crank pulley i have on the car vs the spare engine.

On a side note, the OD of the Water pump pulley is 117mm. I'd love to have that spin faster at idle since cooling this particular car has long been a challenge at low engine speeds. Note sure what a stock water pump could handle at higher rpms though and cavitation could be a problem. Any thoughts/experience on this?

The 180rpm increase is impressive if that was all due to reduced load!
 
This one is 3.38 inch OD, though....

The belt is below the top of the pulley flange. Belt working diameter is about 3.18 inch.

My alternator is a Delco SI-10 that came on the car. I replaced it for same. I do not need any more capacity (more capacity = more parasitic power loss) since I do not run a 9000 Watt stereo or 300 Watt driving lights or anything. The 63 amp setup works fine.

Ciao,
 
On a side note, the OD of the Water pump pulley is 117mm. I'd love to have that spin faster at idle since cooling this particular car has long been a challenge at low engine speeds. Note sure what a stock water pump could handle at higher rpms though and cavitation could be a problem. Any thoughts/experience on this?

I don't have any experience with this but it seems awfully likely that you'd suffer cavitation at high RPM, where you least want it.

It's interesting that so many folks have (or have had) problems keeping the temp under control at idle. It was a problem in at least one of my Xs but the '85 cycles the fans at an indicated ~180F engine temp if I just let it sit and idle. Granted, I have my idle speed bumped up to help the A/C, but I think there are others who have cars that idle near the stock spec and don't overheat.

I think it was TonyK who found that reducing the clearance between the impeller and the pump housing made a big difference in cooling. Which would certainly explain why some folks experience overheating problems at idle, while others don't.

I'll be installing a new WP with the new engine I'm building. I'll be paying close attention to the impeller clearance and if I experience any newfound overheating issues afterward my first solution will be to reduce that clearance.

For whatever that's worth.

///Mike
 
Yeah... I haveta agree with the other Mark...

The GM alernator I used was for a 350 had a pulley almost the same size as the stock Bosch/Marelli I replaced. I guess at 18,000 rpm, that S10 sized small pulley kinda cut its life expectancy by 2/3... HA!

Good info Mark... as always... GOOD advice usually comes from BAD experiences.
 
I don't have any experience with this but it seems awfully likely that you'd suffer cavitation at high RPM, where you least want it.

It's interesting that so many folks have (or have had) problems keeping the temp under control at idle. It was a problem in at least one of my Xs but the '85 cycles the fans at an indicated ~180F engine temp if I just let it sit and idle. Granted, I have my idle speed bumped up to help the A/C, but I think there are others who have cars that idle near the stock spec and don't overheat.

I think it was TonyK who found that reducing the clearance between the impeller and the pump housing made a big difference in cooling. Which would certainly explain why some folks experience overheating problems at idle, while others don't.

I'll be installing a new WP with the new engine I'm building. I'll be paying close attention to the impeller clearance and if I experience any newfound overheating issues afterward my first solution will be to reduce that clearance.

For whatever that's worth.

///Mike

Mike,

How are you able to reduce the clearance? Wouldn't this mean a larger impeller or small housing?

Thanks,
Tim
 
The clearance would be measured in and out....

The water pump mounts to a block on the side of the engine. The impeller is on the water pump insert, and the clearance is measured to the angled, machined surface in the pump block. There is a really nice cutaway in the FIAT Service Manual. Clearance is listed at 0.8 - 1.3mm. Adjustment can be made by varying the thickness of the gasket on the pump insert. Or in an extreme case, machining off the face of the pump block.

I don't think that I would go outside the recommended specs for the clearance. If I had been engineering and testing that system, I would have run cooling tests with a range of clearances and picked the one with the best combination of moving the coolant without cavitating at top RPM.

Ciao,
 
Basically, what Mark said.

I think it was TonyK who posted a pretty comprehensive write-up of his WP mod, but I can't seem to find it now. Perhaps JimD will see this, in which case the correct link will be posted within seconds. Otherwise, you might ping TonyK to see if he can help you find the post.

If anyone does find it I hope you'll post the link here or in a separate thread. I'd like to see it again myownself.

///Mike
 
???

Basically, what Mark said.

I think it was TonyK who posted a pretty comprehensive write-up of his WP mod, but I can't seem to find it now. Perhaps JimD will see this, in which case the correct link will be posted within seconds. Otherwise, you might ping TonyK to see if he can help you find the post.

If anyone does find it I hope you'll post the link here or in a separate thread. I'd like to see it again myownself.

///Mike


http://www.network54.com/Forum/12159/message/1185326992/Cooling+Mods,+Water+Pump.
 
Yikes Jim-- you really *can* find anything on this forum!

I'm pretty sure that's the post I was thinking of, although I thought Tony had given more details about the modification process itself. But my memory is carp, and the rest of it looks/reads as I recalled, so that's gotta be it. Thanks!

I've long suspected that the impeller clearance is the cause of a lot of warm running issues on otherwise sound cars, such as BobB's clone of my '85. His car is just too nice to run warm and yet it apparently ran warmer than my ~64k mile '85 does in a lot warmer climate.

Thanks for the help Jim. Hopefully others will find this discussion helpful in addressing elevated temps at idle. As many have written, the X cooling system works just fine on many of the cars out there, even fairly modified ones. So if you're fighting an overheating problem it only makes sense to ensure that the entire cooling system is up to par, including the impeller clearance. I figure the Fiat engineers included that spec in the book for a reason... :)

Cheers,

///Mike
 
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