Anybody tried 16's?
- Thread starter Michael Albers
- Start date
Bjorn Nilson
True Classic
Height is one thing but width is another performance factor. There is no way to get temperature in such wide tires on a light car like the X1/9. Dallara put a wing on the car for a reason; to create more weight at the rear to benefit from wider tires. I think a width of 165-185mm is perfect for our cars if no extra down force has been added. Personally I think the height of 185/60 13 looks very good on a X, and it fits well.
autox19
True Classic
100% agree that the best size for performance is 185/60/13. just an opinion though. like I put above, I have it for looks, not performance. The wing on the back of mine is also overkill. but it is the look i like, some may not, that is their choice. I will say that the first drive I had after my swap had the 185's and would pretty much spin them anywhere in first and second gear. cant do that with the current tires.
If I were to get back in to racing I would start again with e different X and 7 inch wide 13 inch with 185/60s
Odie
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
There are many aspects to consider when choosing wheel/tire sizes. And as others have said, each application will have different goals and objectives which will heavily influence the decision.
I might have missed it, but another aspect that I don't think has been mentioned in this thread is how the overall diameter (tire circumference) affects the final gearing ratio. Several posts have commented on how various 'large' tire sizes result in a larger OD - or taller tire, which in my opinion is a benefit for the X1/9. Again, personal preference but I feel the X has too low (high ratio) of a final drive for comfortable street driving, so a taller tire improves it. But that will depend on the intended use of the car. I find 15" wheels with tires around 50 to 55 aspect ratio (depending on the width) offers a nice circumference and gearing for my use. It also offers a decent level of ride comfort, yet another aspect to consider with aspect ratio choice; extremely low profile tires tend to have a very harsh ride.
I might have missed it, but another aspect that I don't think has been mentioned in this thread is how the overall diameter (tire circumference) affects the final gearing ratio. Several posts have commented on how various 'large' tire sizes result in a larger OD - or taller tire, which in my opinion is a benefit for the X1/9. Again, personal preference but I feel the X has too low (high ratio) of a final drive for comfortable street driving, so a taller tire improves it. But that will depend on the intended use of the car. I find 15" wheels with tires around 50 to 55 aspect ratio (depending on the width) offers a nice circumference and gearing for my use. It also offers a decent level of ride comfort, yet another aspect to consider with aspect ratio choice; extremely low profile tires tend to have a very harsh ride.
lookforjoe
True Classic
My X1/9 handled beautifully with 185/60x13 on the American Racing wheels - and those are so light they're perfect for a stock X1/9, IMO
EDIT - I did like the way my X looked back then - just not as much as I like the Dallara... ideally, I'd have one of each so I could stare at them together, like Rodger & others on here
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
Looks is a very subjective choice, applying what is needed to meet a performance goal is often NOT about choice of appearance. The appearance becomes what is must be based on the way Nature really is.
The current moto fashion IS low profile tires, typically well below 50 series. As the side walls of a tire is reduced, the slip angles are reduced making suspension-chassis set up difficult due to the smaller angles involved. This will tend to make the chassis-suspension less forgiving in dynamics and if a significant bump in the road is encountered. Folks at the wheel and tire stores and moto-tire-wheel manufactures are good with this as they sell plenty more wheels, tires and related due to drivers having a minor encounter with the curb, bump in the road and all that. There is absolutely a profit motive behind this..
Explain, then justify why a 30 series (the Lambo Countach or similar example is irrelevant as the folks who designed it would have set up the chassis-suspension for that tire sizes as oem) tire for public roads is in any way acceptable or has a significant advantage, given appearances are irrelevant?
Wider tires alone do NOT increase grip or increase tire contact patch, wide tires under a given load alters it tire patch shape with the same contact area as a tire that is less wide given the same tire pressure and tire construction. It is also why off road vehicles with tires often have the ability to adjust tire pressures while running to increase the tire contact patch by reducing tire pressure.. It can make a significant difference why trying to increase tire traction in sand, gravel and similar loose surfaces. The trade off being, floppy tire side walls or about the same as driving with flat tires, lots of rolling resistant too. This is part of why altering tire pressures alters chassis-suspension dynamics.
Also noted, drag race folks like tall side wall tires in the rear as they can wind up the tire like a spring. This is stored energy that can be used to launch the car off the line. In combo with lower tire pressures increasing tire patch contact and a softened tire compound(allowing the tire to effectively interlock with the trac surface) is part of why the modern drag car can do the 1/4 mile in very few seconds.
Real race cars with real aero easily justifies wider-larger tires as their effective weight can increase LOTs by trading off power for down force. If a race car weights 1000 pounds sitting still, then the aero of this car produces 2,000 pounds of down force effectively making this race car weigh 3,000 pounds, the tires-wheels and all related are going to get loaded a LOT more than they were sitting still.. In theory this car can be run upside down with no problems at all.
This is why tire widths of 185-195 is about good for a car weight-size of the exxe. Wheel width is a different item as that has a significant effect on how the tire side walls are supported in all running conditions.
Bernice
The current moto fashion IS low profile tires, typically well below 50 series. As the side walls of a tire is reduced, the slip angles are reduced making suspension-chassis set up difficult due to the smaller angles involved. This will tend to make the chassis-suspension less forgiving in dynamics and if a significant bump in the road is encountered. Folks at the wheel and tire stores and moto-tire-wheel manufactures are good with this as they sell plenty more wheels, tires and related due to drivers having a minor encounter with the curb, bump in the road and all that. There is absolutely a profit motive behind this..
Explain, then justify why a 30 series (the Lambo Countach or similar example is irrelevant as the folks who designed it would have set up the chassis-suspension for that tire sizes as oem) tire for public roads is in any way acceptable or has a significant advantage, given appearances are irrelevant?
Wider tires alone do NOT increase grip or increase tire contact patch, wide tires under a given load alters it tire patch shape with the same contact area as a tire that is less wide given the same tire pressure and tire construction. It is also why off road vehicles with tires often have the ability to adjust tire pressures while running to increase the tire contact patch by reducing tire pressure.. It can make a significant difference why trying to increase tire traction in sand, gravel and similar loose surfaces. The trade off being, floppy tire side walls or about the same as driving with flat tires, lots of rolling resistant too. This is part of why altering tire pressures alters chassis-suspension dynamics.
Also noted, drag race folks like tall side wall tires in the rear as they can wind up the tire like a spring. This is stored energy that can be used to launch the car off the line. In combo with lower tire pressures increasing tire patch contact and a softened tire compound(allowing the tire to effectively interlock with the trac surface) is part of why the modern drag car can do the 1/4 mile in very few seconds.
Real race cars with real aero easily justifies wider-larger tires as their effective weight can increase LOTs by trading off power for down force. If a race car weights 1000 pounds sitting still, then the aero of this car produces 2,000 pounds of down force effectively making this race car weigh 3,000 pounds, the tires-wheels and all related are going to get loaded a LOT more than they were sitting still.. In theory this car can be run upside down with no problems at all.
This is why tire widths of 185-195 is about good for a car weight-size of the exxe. Wheel width is a different item as that has a significant effect on how the tire side walls are supported in all running conditions.
Bernice
darwoodious
Darin Nelson
Yup. It's all about weight - our X1/9's are in the 2000 lbs range (900 kg). 185-195 is about right.
15" vs. 13" - this is more about tire availability and brake size than anything else IMO. Even at 15" we are gonna have issues finding tires likely based on demand - there aren't a lot of cars on the road today using 15" wheels, forget 13" wheels!
Modern cars are HUGE compared to our sweet little road-going "go carts". At some point we gotta accept that. As for wheels larger that 15", I dunno... seems a leap into a world where your car looks like a 'donk'.
If you DO figure out 16" wheels, please post photos here cuz I'd love to see it regardless. And no matter what, it's your car - do what you want! I'll stop at 15" even tho I still dream of putting Cromodora CD66 7x13's on my X.
15" vs. 13" - this is more about tire availability and brake size than anything else IMO. Even at 15" we are gonna have issues finding tires likely based on demand - there aren't a lot of cars on the road today using 15" wheels, forget 13" wheels!
Modern cars are HUGE compared to our sweet little road-going "go carts". At some point we gotta accept that. As for wheels larger that 15", I dunno... seems a leap into a world where your car looks like a 'donk'.
If you DO figure out 16" wheels, please post photos here cuz I'd love to see it regardless. And no matter what, it's your car - do what you want! I'll stop at 15" even tho I still dream of putting Cromodora CD66 7x13's on my X.
Bjorn Nilson
True Classic
Jens Hagen from Norway even put 17" on his X1/9. The car was super fast with 15" in 2019 so I am looking forward to see the results in upcoming season 2021. According Jens the main reason for changing wheel size is not performance. All other cars in the race team are running 17" so they are looking for a general setup. It has also become hard to get 15" race tires in Scandinavia.
But to me the 17" wheels look a little bit oversized on a X1/9.
I assume a lot of cutting, sawing and welding was necessary to make them fit, at least in the front.
But to me the 17" wheels look a little bit oversized on a X1/9.
I assume a lot of cutting, sawing and welding was necessary to make them fit, at least in the front.
lookforjoe
True Classic
That's impressive - as you say, with the highly modified body it changes the overall appearance enough that the 17"s don't look CRAZY in proportion to the car as a whole.
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
Your red Xolvo fits in nicely with the others around itMy X1/9 handled beautifully with 185/60x13 on the American Racing wheels - and those are so light they're perfect for a stock X1/9, IMO
EDIT - I did like the way my X looked back then - just not as much as I like the Dallara... ideally, I'd have one of each so I could stare at them together, like Rodger & others on here
.....
Tom Ginefra
True Classic
For what it's worth... My 79 X has stock suspension. When it came time to start shopping for tires to replace the old bricks that came on the car, (wanting to keep the 13" rims I have) I ran into the typical limited choices of those available in suitable sizes. Mine's not a show queen or a race car. It's a decent looking "driver". I didn't want to spend what I consider to be big money on tires. So not wanting hi end super sticky compounds or having to order something from overseas...I had basically 2 choices. The Federals and the Achilles. The Federals have many fans because their considered to be cheap "performance tires", but having read many comments about QC issues, (for the 13" options) I looked further into the Achilles 122. The Achilles is marketed as an all season performance and as an economy tire. (They are dirt cheap) But almost every website promoted them as just plain old economy tires. I took a chance and ordered a set of 185/60/13's from GigaTire.com. They do not have an aggressive tread pattern but look really good on the car and compliment my original steel cloverleafs very well. However, once I started driving on them I was "astounded" at how well they handled. I have a reservation that surrounds a lake near my house that has 2 roads that lead to either side of this fairly large "preserve". They consist of tight switch backs, a lot of off camber turns and 2 long straights that connect both roads to the reservation, with about 100' change in elevation from the base of each road to the top of the reservation. This is my very own little Mille Miglia, and I truly wish that each and everyone of you had such a road to experience each day. It has elevated my X ownership to another level and really allows me to enjoy this car as it was meant to be driven. As you can imagine, I do drive through this "rather spiritedly". As my speeds through this circuit have increased little by little, I have been "so impressed" with how sticky these tires are. I'm really pushing this car and you don't hear the slightest bit of tire squeal. It's unbelievable!
Cut to the other day... I'm wiping down the car and get to the rear and notice that about half of my tread depth is "gone". The fronts were a little worn as well, but nothing like the rears. No abnormal wear patterns, just a lot less tire. I have only had these on the car for 5 months, and have been driving the car at least 3 or 4 days every week, since I put it on the road. I guess I figured out why they're so good. The compound is a lot softer than I expected. But at $ 36.00 each (plus $ 30.00 for shipping) I figured I would just buy another set. It's still cheaper than all of the other options out there and IMHO they are fantastic tires. NOTE: Just checked the GigaTire website and these must be gaining in popularity, as the price has now climbed to $ 47 each. Still a bargain in my mind. I guess all I'm trying to say is while you certainly have many more performance tire options to choose from when you grow your rim size, unless you're looking for a different aesthetic or track your car, you don't "have to" go any bigger.
Cut to the other day... I'm wiping down the car and get to the rear and notice that about half of my tread depth is "gone". The fronts were a little worn as well, but nothing like the rears. No abnormal wear patterns, just a lot less tire. I have only had these on the car for 5 months, and have been driving the car at least 3 or 4 days every week, since I put it on the road. I guess I figured out why they're so good. The compound is a lot softer than I expected. But at $ 36.00 each (plus $ 30.00 for shipping) I figured I would just buy another set. It's still cheaper than all of the other options out there and IMHO they are fantastic tires. NOTE: Just checked the GigaTire website and these must be gaining in popularity, as the price has now climbed to $ 47 each. Still a bargain in my mind. I guess all I'm trying to say is while you certainly have many more performance tire options to choose from when you grow your rim size, unless you're looking for a different aesthetic or track your car, you don't "have to" go any bigger.
Attachments
I would check your rear alignment, probably have an issue with too much toe in/out. That or your starts are a bit too smokey!
Glad to hear you are having a blast!
bjwhite
True Classic
My X1/9 handled beautifully with 185/60x13 on the American Racing wheels - and those are so light they're perfect for a stock X1/9, IMO
EDIT - I did like the way my X looked back then - just not as much as I like the Dallara... ideally, I'd have one of each so I could stare at them together, like Rodger & others on here
Man, you and Volvos. hahaha.
gene cooley
Autocrosser
What is the treadwear rating?
Tom Ginefra
True Classic
Treadwear rating is 440 and was similar to other more well known brands of all season tires.
Being DOT approved, I was confident these would perform as expected. Remember, I wasn't really looking for summer tires or sticky tires. I just wanted decent ones that I could use to get the car on the road. Being inexpensive, I figured if they suck... I'll just replace them.
I just re-read Tire Rack's explanation of the UTQG ratings and "just now" realize that this is only a guide, and apparently the numbers are devined and issued by the tire manfacturers themselves! The data used during testing is "open to interpretation".
The trans mount is old and tired. The motor sits a little too low for my liking and that's definitely adding a little more toe in than I would like. But like I said. The wear is even across the entire tread. There's no abnormal wear patterns on the tires and nothing's rubbing yet (IE axles). I'm dying to replace the lower mount but all my previous research has come up empty. I see a lot of new 4 speed mounts but no sources for the 5 speed versions. Do any of you know of any vendors who make a replacement 5 speed trans mount?
And as for Smokey starts... I may from time to time
take off rather briskly from a light, but there's no burnouts for this guy. I'm too scared to blow up the 40 year old trans. I just put in a new clutch and trans lube. The internals are all original.
gene cooley
Autocrosser
Treadwear rating is 440 and was similar to other more well known brands of all season tires.
Being DOT approved, I was confident these would perform as expected. Remember, I wasn't really looking for summer tires or sticky tires. I just wanted decent ones that I could use to get the car on the road. Being inexpensive, I figured if they suck... I'll just replace them.
I just re-read Tire Rack's explanation of the UTQG ratings and "just now" realize that this is only a guide, and apparently the numbers are devined and issued by the tire manfacturers themselves! The data used during testing is "open to interpretation".
The trans mount is old and tired. The motor sits a little too low for my liking and that's definitely adding a little more toe in than I would like. But like I said. The wear is even across the entire tread. There's no abnormal wear patterns on the tires and nothing's rubbing yet (IE axles). I'm dying to replace the lower mount but all my previous research has come up empty. I see a lot of new 4 speed mounts but no sources for the 5 speed versions. Do any of you know of any vendors who make a replacement 5 speed trans mount?
And as for Smokey starts... I may from time to time
If you start with full depth tread it limits the actual contact patch and you can wear the tread away fairly quickly. As it wears the wear rate will slow down. You may get twice the miles out of the rest of the tire. Don't count on that though.
It may be worth the the effort to shave the tires before you drive on them. I don't think you really want to go to that trouble for the driving that you are doing.
Since you are not racing I'd just watch that your reduced tread depth doesn't compromise your wet weather grip.
Tom Ginefra
True Classic
Thanks for the tip, Eric. Can you tell I have ADD? I re-read your comment and clearly mistook toe for camber. I'll be getting an alignment in the near future, after I renew some of the suspension components and hopefully replace the lower mount. Thankfully for now , (other than a bad rack bushing) the car drives and tracks well.I would check your rear alignment, probably have an issue with too much toe in/out. That or your starts are a bit too smokey!
Eastep
True Classic
Back to the original query about 16s; yes its been done. Has it been done correctly to a point I personally like it ? IMO no, not on a stock bodied X1/9. If your running huge flares, skirts and wings, then yes, 16s and 17s can be made to look good.
I'm running 15s on stock bodied X, and it was very difficult to pull the look of correctly. IMO, I missed the mark for the rear tire fitment . Im running 185/45s on 8.25 wide wheels, all around. Since at the time I was researching 15s on X1/9s, there was literally 0 results for what I was wanting to do, which is to pay homage to my VeeDub roots, and slam the crap out of an X and run bigger more attractive wheels (its a recipe strait from the VW cookbook).
There was limited info out there, as most people running 15s, were using the wheels sold on vicks, which are similar specs, but Im not a fan of those wheels. I wanted something a bit more reminiscent of 70's & 80's Ferrari wheels and bought a set. I was told universally that it'll not work, and its not going to drive worth crap, and that the scrub radius, Yada Yada Yada, and the angle, Yada Yada Yada, and this blah blah blah and the that blah blah blah, of why the wheels won't work and how I've committed some blasphemous offense to their purist and engineering sensibilities. Dont worry about what the naysayers sing about. Too many people lack vision, and only see results, or how something looks on paper. I like to think most of these people are trying to help & educate, but it can come off too judging and snobby, at times. Just do you!
The biggest issue I ran into, was having to do all the measurements and calculations in an abstract dimension, via online fitment calculators and very crude physical measurements from the car, as I didn't have the tires or suspension on hand. All I had was the bare wheels, and my friend Dan to help with approximate measurements. Getting tires that worked and would make the car look like a 4x4, was difficult. The front arches are the biggest concern. There is actually quite a bit of room for rubber in the rear as is.
I would suggest that if you want to run 16s for ease of tire selection, or there is a particular wheel that you want to use thats only available in 16in; do it!
Measure, measure, measure and do some more measuring. Having the parts on hand, and a bit of patience is also highly suggested (neither of which I had). You'll probably have to do some messaging and cutting of the body work, to get a nice result. Good luck.
I'm running 15s on stock bodied X, and it was very difficult to pull the look of correctly. IMO, I missed the mark for the rear tire fitment . Im running 185/45s on 8.25 wide wheels, all around. Since at the time I was researching 15s on X1/9s, there was literally 0 results for what I was wanting to do, which is to pay homage to my VeeDub roots, and slam the crap out of an X and run bigger more attractive wheels (its a recipe strait from the VW cookbook).
There was limited info out there, as most people running 15s, were using the wheels sold on vicks, which are similar specs, but Im not a fan of those wheels. I wanted something a bit more reminiscent of 70's & 80's Ferrari wheels and bought a set. I was told universally that it'll not work, and its not going to drive worth crap, and that the scrub radius, Yada Yada Yada, and the angle, Yada Yada Yada, and this blah blah blah and the that blah blah blah, of why the wheels won't work and how I've committed some blasphemous offense to their purist and engineering sensibilities. Dont worry about what the naysayers sing about. Too many people lack vision, and only see results, or how something looks on paper. I like to think most of these people are trying to help & educate, but it can come off too judging and snobby, at times. Just do you!
The biggest issue I ran into, was having to do all the measurements and calculations in an abstract dimension, via online fitment calculators and very crude physical measurements from the car, as I didn't have the tires or suspension on hand. All I had was the bare wheels, and my friend Dan to help with approximate measurements. Getting tires that worked and would make the car look like a 4x4, was difficult. The front arches are the biggest concern. There is actually quite a bit of room for rubber in the rear as is.
I would suggest that if you want to run 16s for ease of tire selection, or there is a particular wheel that you want to use thats only available in 16in; do it!
Measure, measure, measure and do some more measuring. Having the parts on hand, and a bit of patience is also highly suggested (neither of which I had). You'll probably have to do some messaging and cutting of the body work, to get a nice result. Good luck.
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dcioccarelli
Dominic Cioccarelli
So obviously this first part of the reply is more of a personal preference. I don't think anything above 14" looks good on an X1/9 (and 13" generally looks better). Much of this has got to do with how the car was designed: when Gandini sat down and penned the design of the X1/9 he designed the overall shape of the car around 13" wheels. Had bigger wheels been available and popular at the time, he may well have used them, but the design of the body would have been also modified to accommodate them.
The second part of the reply is more technical: 16" wheels (and tyres) are significantly heavier. When I compare my Fiat 13" wheels to the 16" wheels (or even just tyres!) on my Peugeot, the difference is staggering. When you consider that reduction of unsprung weight is one of the best things you can do to improve the overall handling of a car, moving to bigger wheels makes little sense.
Luckily, here in Europe, we still have some quite decent offerings in 13" tyres at reasonable prices.
Cheers,
Dom.