as the transmission crumbles

Rod Midkiff

Rod Midkiff

True Classic
:sighs: thought I was going to be ok. Ran into town and holy smokes the transmission started making some very unhappy crunchy bad bearing sounds (clutch in neutral noise goes away) clutch out neutral noise is back. Strange part all noise goes away in 5th gear.

Guess I try one of the other ones .
 
Rod Midkiff said:
:sighs: thought I was going to be ok. Ran into town and holy smokes the transmission started making some very unhappy crunchy bad bearing sounds (clutch in neutral noise goes away) clutch out neutral noise is back. Strange part all noise goes away in 5th gear.

Guess I try one of the other ones .
Click to expand...

When the clutch is depressed the noise is lessened/gone? Are you sure it's not a bad throwout bearing? Since it rides against the PP, it is spinning all the time. When mine was submerged in one of our street floods years back, the bearing made horrendous noises...

EDIT - I'd drop the trans oil & look for metal particles, if it's internal one might expect to see evidence in the oil.
 
Well that sucks. If the transmission sat in a unheated garage for a long time, the bearings higher-up in the 'box could have corroded. There is only a low-tech jiggle-cap type vent so it really doesn't seal the unit. The rolling elements corrode to the races causing localized pitting that might as well be spalling. 5th gear is probably quieter because it is on the other side of the wall so-to-speak and adjacent to the bearing at the distal end of the input shaft. If the bearing that failed was on the clutch end of the input shaft, 4th and 5th would see the least misalignment.
I'd guess input shaft bearing on the clutch end.
Maybe time to send one to Steve to get rebuilt?
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it did sit for years drained with the axle stubs removed (did turn it over and nothing drained out the axle shafts) would guess the condition is so far the best thought. Just frustrating to go from oh cool was a cheap fix and works well too. Darn it.... will it make it home....

from my understanding, the 79 is not a good year to consider working on (the 5 spd)
 
The one that Steve just rebuilt for me is my original '79. He didn't seem to have any issues, but I do remember him saying that there is one year range that he thought was the better of the different variations.
 
Rod Midkiff said:
it did sit for years drained with the axle stubs removed (did turn it over and nothing drained out the axle shafts) would guess the condition is so far the best thought. Just frustrating to go from oh cool was a cheap fix and works well too. Darn it.... will it make it home....

from my understanding, the 79 is not a good year to consider working on (the 5 spd)
Click to expand...

That would do it. Probably lots of rust on the gear faces and bearings. This is a common failure. I got one back recently as a core that was just like this. Rust on everything and then was run and made a major mess.

There are no years that are better than others. There are three different ratio sets. The differences are somewhat inconsequential however, the '83+ transmissions have a lower (numerically higher) 1st gear to help get the car moving easier. But otherwise most people can't tell the difference.

The '83+ units also have the larger, 16mm, reverse idler shaft. In theory, this should make reverse stronger but I don't see any differences in durability. The reality is that the 16mm reverse idler gear is harder to find and more than double the cost for effectively no material gain.

I'll be glad to build you a unit. How was the one that you just replaced?
 
I opened the one that I just put in (that had the venting issue). There was some rusting issue on the face of the gears.
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Well, rats I said expecting to see a blow up down below.

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I was quite surprised to see the input bearing looked good.
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there is pitting, But no chunks or teeth missing, again kinda surprised!

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This, on the other hand, no looking so good at all.

Well, darn it. I am sure that I took a picture of the reverse gear but it is not on the phone.

Looks to Me like reverse was hanging up and chewing things up...

So I looked at the shifter.

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focus was on the table not the part on this one.

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I also noticed this.

The reverse was starting to jump out if I was not VERY gentle with is.

I also noticed looking at the pictures the pitting is a LOT more noticeable. (I did not notice that when I had it opened) but I was also looking more for a blown up bearing or something major.
 
Sorry to say this is what I expected when you said it had been stored with the stub shafts out and no oil. Moisture condenses out on the inside surfaces and the bear metal, especially the wear surfaces like the gear tooth faces, all begin to rust. If it gets run in this condition the rusted surfaces start breaking down and the rust debris get circulated throughout the transmission. It will chew up everything. If run long enough the gear teeth on 5th will eventually fail and strip.

And that linkage "repair" is priceless. Breaking the end off one of the linkage components isn't uncommon. There is a lot of load through that little think and the neck is a stress point. It can get broken easily if you are holding the shifter in reverse and it tries to jump out. Or, you make a 2-3, 3-4 or 4-5 shift and don't get the slider fully engaged. The resulting synchronizer explosion has enough force to break the end off the internal linkage when it kicks back.

I have seen a couple of internal linkages that were welded back together but never such a crappy job as that. I LOL when I saw that picture.

And sadly, the reverse gear on the input shaft looks to be in excellent shape. :(
 
Rod Midkiff said:
from my understanding, the 79 is not a good year to consider working on (the 5 spd)
Click to expand...

the fifth gear is keyed to the shafts, the notch in the shaft is a known failure point due to high stresses at the sharp corners and change of section.... later transmissions had a splined attachment for the fifth gears...Fiat changed this as the keyway often failed, the splines don't.

the rusty transmission is toast unfortunately...

SteveC
 
Rod Midkiff: “This is news as in the day the x1/9 was a common tow behind the motor home vehicle rumor has it that is a great way to get an X1/9 that had high miles but low usage (speedo still tick's miles). And every tow manual I have seen say's x1/9 is towable on the drive wheels (I have done it many times).”

RJH: The Bertone Owner's Manual states on page 44:
verbatim:

General Towing Instructions:
Vehicle must not be towed at a speed exceeding 30 mph, or for more then a 30 miles.
- If the vehicle is to be towed over the specified distance or if the transmission or differential is damaged the vehicle must be towed with the rear driving wheels raised off the ground.

Reading all these ultra sensitive problems with the X1/9 transmission I would be very cautious.
 
There are other models that use the same/similar transmission which have alternate final drive ratios... and luckily as fifth is a separate gear on both the input and cluster shafts these can be swapped over into the X19 trans... your not going to find them in the USA though Jeff, as they are all european models like Uno/Ritmo/Regata.

Fifth for X19 is 0.863:1 overdriven, some regata 85 and some diesel model transmissions use 0.827:1, some uno's use 0.811:1

on the other side of the coin some of the twin cam powered models that have virtually the same transmission use a 0.959:1 overdrive, and if this is combined with the X19's 1.033 fourth gear, gives an almost close ratio feel to the four/five shift for more track oriented cars

SteveC
 
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Ha, just realized we have two "Steve's" in this discussion. I appreciate all replies though.

Steve C, thanks. That is what I do with VW transaxles, swap 5th for tall set from other models. Makes for good city driving through 4th gear, then drop down into tall 5th for freeway driving...best of both. But the parts are readily available here. Unfortunately they are not available (here) for the Fiat trans, as I feel that would be a great compromise for typical X use. I wonder if tall 5th ratio sets are abundant (as parts) and cheap in Europe or Australia to ship here? And is it a simple swap to do (as in direct fit) once the trans is open for other repairs?
 
for transmissions with a splined fit for the fifth gears, then yes it is a straight fit as a matched pair of gears, for the keyway style fifth you'd be right out of luck... common in europe, well in the day absolutely...but remember we are talking mid 1980's production cars here, most used sources have gone to the metal recycling, and finding a new pair of matched ratio gears...well good luck, not impossible but unlikely to be easy or cheap.

SteveC
 
Thanks Steve. I should have specified I'm referring to the later ('85) trans, so I assume it is the splined style (haven't torn it down yet to know for sure). And also should have specified I meant "to find a good used set of gears" (not new), but the answer addresses both, thanks again.

If I were to search online for parts from Europe, what years of Uno/Ritmo/Regata should I include (for a tall, splined 5th gear set)? You mentioned "some Regata 85 and some diesel models", can you be a little more specific to improve my searching results please. I'm assuming looking in the UK are my best odds (easy to read the listings - I don't speak Italian, a decent number of old Fiats, and friendly shipping), so the years/models that apply there would be most helpful. Or if its easier, the part numbers that apply. Thank you, since we never had these models I don't know anything about them.
 
no ...as I only know that they exist, but cant figure out the exact transmission codes, or even the exact tooth counts involved, only the final ratios ... so if you want to pursue this route, you'll need to do the legwork...but bottom change trans (so pre 1986/87ish) from regata or uno diesel models would be where I would start... though I honestly can't see too many people willing to strip down a trans to sell a pair of fifth gears for cheap...

I do know what models and the tooth count of the shorter fifth ratio, as that's the one I was specifically interested in so I did the legwork and figured it out.

SteveC
 
SteveC is correct. The early 5 speeds had a woodruff key for 5th gear. They do fail but it is somewhat rare. I have only seen a few.

I have tried to locate a source in Europe for Uno transmissions without much success.
 
I don't want to hijack this thread, but maybe the question fits here:
I have always wondered why many X1/9 transmissions make a racket when sitting at a light with the trans in neutral. Some just a little bit, some almost unbeareable.
Pushing in the clutch quiets it right down.
I have even seen this with freshly rebuilt transmissions.
Can someone explain?
 
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