Battery discussion and general info

Dr.Jeff

Dr.Jeff

True Classic
Didn't we recently have a discussion about car batteries? Or could that have been somewhere else, or in my dreams, or another hallucination? Because now I can't find it. But then again, my "search" skills (among others) have always been lacking.

Anyway, today I came across a little general article from Hemmings about car batteries that may be interest to some. Nothing really new but it mentioned a couple of useful things. Here is the link:

If someone recalls the prior discussion (assuming there ever was one), please link it. As I read the above article it reminded me of some things that were said and may be relevant.
 
Dr.Jeff said:
Didn't we recently have a discussion about car batteries? Or could that have been somewhere else, or in my dreams, or another hallucination? Because now I can't find it. But then again, my "search" skills (among others) have always been lacking.

Anyway, today I came across a little general article from Hemmings about car batteries that may be interest to some. Nothing really new but it mentioned a couple of useful things. Here is the link:

If someone recalls the prior discussion (assuming there ever was one), please link it. As I read the above article it reminded me of some things that were said and may be relevant.
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You may be thinking about the "build your own alternator" thread.
 
For the battery size the exxie uses (24 and possibly 34), over the last several testing cycles, Consumer Reports testing has Walmart's EverStart Maxx as the top choice. Good warranty and good performance at a competitive price, and the sales volume assures you of getting a pretty fresh unit.
 
For the Scorpion I'm looking for a small lightweight battery. Some of the Miata guys use Walmart tractor batteries because they are small. Honda Fit also have tiny batteries.
 
lanciahf said:
For the Scorpion I'm looking for a small lightweight battery. Some of the Miata guys use Walmart tractor batteries because they are small. Honda Fit also have tiny batteries.
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In one of my Audi's I run twin YUASA GYZ32HL . they are 500 CCA 32AH. I could get away with one during warm months but run two in the trunk spare well. I just replaced the X's battery with a more powerful AGM over OEM spec, just to have some extra crank time when it gets grumpy.
 
Any thought on the Shorai batteries? I have never used one but a friend of mine had one in a bike and raved about it. I think that may be my next battery choice.
 
Dan Sarandrea (Phila) said:
Consumer Reports testing has Walmart's EverStart Maxx as the top choice.
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That surprises me, but good to know. A couple years ago I was looking around at battery choices locally and the top level ones at WM were not the lowest price (CostCo's Interstate beat it). But Interstate has definitely lost its quality compared to several years ago. Then again, they all have. So the WM ones may be better than CostCo. Oddly Home Depot offered Exide batts at a very good price (one of the lowest I saw). But I've never looked into the reviews for Exide.
 
ricar said:
Any thought on the Shorai batteries?
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Lithium Ion. Definitely the way to go if you want a tiny light weight battery, such as for a race car or motorcycle. However they seem to suffer a bit in terms of overall life span when used for a daily driver in a automobile. Unless you get a really big one. Otherwise it is being drained too much when cranking, leading to a high recharge demand. As I understand it to make to most of them you would need to add a controller circuit into the engine's charging system to regulate the recharging.
 
ricar said:
Any thought on the Shorai batteries? I have never used one but a friend of mine had one in a bike and raved about it. I think that may be my next battery choice.
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I have a Shorai in one of my cafe racers. I love it. I am not sure what the chemistry is but i just us a tiny "Battery Tender Brand " Trickle charger. I am not sure if they make anything big enough for a car.

One thing about the X is having a bit heavier batter up front is not a bad thing. Its all about where the weight is. Moving a battery and fuel cell up front just helps get closer to that 50:50.
 
Bobkat said:
I have a Shorai in one of my cafe racers. I love it. I am not sure what the chemistry is but i just us a tiny "Battery Tender Brand " Trickle charger. I am not sure if they make anything big enough for a car.

One thing about the X is having a bit heavier batter up front is not a bad thing. Its all about where the weight is. Moving a battery and fuel cell up front just helps get closer to that 50:50.
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Agree about having a heavier battery up front (actually pass. side footwell). If you need to add ballast to make minimum weight a big old energy dense battery just makes sense.
 
bpimm said:
I have been using these for quite a while, work great and give you extra room in the battery box.
Oddyssey PC680
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The small AGM's like that (link) seem to be what most are using for light weight installations.

A few years ago I was very interested in the Li-ion batteries, both for my vintage motorcycles and possibly for a car build. Did quite a bit of research on them and was very impressed, even if they were really expensive. At that time some car manufacturers (Porsche for example) were starting to install them in certain models. The projects that I had planned to use them in were delayed a couple of years (due to other circumstances) before I bought the Li-ion batts. Later when I went back to see what was available it seemed the general opinion on Li-ion had softened quite a lot. Even the OEMs were no longer offering it. I never heard any specific problems or reasons beyond what I mentioned earlier - typical vehicle charging systems are not really ideal for the technology. If you look at the applications using Li-ion batts - like in electric vehicles, cell phones, or other devices - they have a specific charging circuit to control it. So I'm not certain what would be the best approach for installing one in a vintage car. I'm sure you could just put the Li-ion batt in and it would work fine for awhile. But they are expensive to replace if the lifespan proves to be short.
 
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Several years ago we parked the 600 and ran our A/Mod Supervee. We needed a battery and I bought a Braille "21" (about $220 from Summit). It was more powerful than the lawn mower battery we had been using and 3# heavier.
Charging was iffy; we had a charger that seemed to meet Braille's requirements, but I never felt we got a full charge. The Vee had no charging system so every couple of weeks we charged it off the truck alternator in addition to the plug in battery charger.
At the end of the season we put the Braille in the Fiat for a while but fearing that it would freeze we stored it in a heated area for the winter and also maintained a charge on it.
In the spring it went back into the Fiat (full charging system) and it lasted for about half a season and didn't seem to want to take a charge.
At that point we went back to the U1-3 size garden tractor battery--$45, (actually took it out of the tractor) and it has run for 2 seasons.
This is cranking a 2.2L high compression Ecotec.
No worries about freezing or 2 week charging requirements, it starts the Fiat summer/winter even if it hasn't been run for a month.
Anyway, just my personal experience.
 
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Dr.Jeff said:
The small AGM's like that (link) seem to be what most are using for light weight installations.

A few years ago I was very interested in the Li-ion batteries, both for my vintage motorcycles and possibly for a car build. Did quite a bit of research on them and was very impressed, even if they were really expensive. At that time some car manufacturers (Porsche for example) were starting to install them in certain models. The projects that I had planned to use them in were delayed a couple of years (due to other circumstances) before I bought the Li-ion batts. Later when I went back to see what was available it seemed the general opinion on Li-ion had softened quite a lot. Even the OEMs were no longer offering it. I never heard any specific problems or reasons beyond what I mentioned earlier - typical vehicle charging systems are not really ideal for the technology. If you look at the applications using Li-ion batts - like in electric vehicles, cell phones, or other devices - they have a specific charging circuit to control it. So I'm not certain what would be the best approach for installing one in a vintage car. I'm sure you could just put the Li-ion batt in and it would work fine for awhile. But they are expensive to replace if the lifespan proves to be short.
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You're right on track, it's the incompatibility with the charging system that makes them tough to work with.
 
gene cooley said:
We needed a battery and I bought a Braille "21"
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I saw the brand name "Braille" and read your comments, and figured this was a Li-ion battery. At one time Braille was one of the many brands offering Li-ion (like Shorai), and the description of your experience sounds EXACTLY like everything I saw regarding the use of Li-ion batts in cars. But looking closer at the pic, that was a AGM batt. I'm very surprised. From what I've found AGM generally seems to be the most reliable of the battery options out there.

As I recall, the main selling point with Braille is the very lightweight - mostly due to the use of carbon fiber for the case. However I wonder if they also reduce weight by using less material inside? Or for that matter, perhaps there is an inherent design problem with the use of CF for batt cases? But they certainly are expensive as you noted.
 
I heard an interesting thing about the popular Odyssey "6-pack" spiral cell AGM batteries. At a major trade show I attend, most of the big battery brands are always represented by their key people. As time permits I like to stop and talk to the engineers and ask what the latest developments are. Several years ago when I spoke with such a person from Odyssey I was told they were considering going away from that 6-pack format in favor of the more traditional rectangular 'shoe box' design. The reason being they determined the spiral concept really did not offer any true benefit, and worse yet it actually reduces the amount of internal volume for the overall size of the battery - thus limiting the capacity. If you look at the bottom of one you can see why, lots of empty space compared to the total footprint. So to remain competitive in terms of performance and specifications they would have to change the design accordingly. A couple years later I saw the same people again but also noticed they were still using the 6-pack style. When I asked what happened with the proposed change they told me the marketing department decided the iconic look of their 6-pack was selling more batteries than their studies indicated they would get if they changed the look.

Americans are so easily sold.
 
There was a good discussion on battery maintainers on another forum. It seems they are not all created equal.

I had a few made by Schumacher and experienced problems with them. One totally fried a brand new battery - boiled it dry in a couple days. Another just quit working, which I did not realize until the battery had gone completely flat. And yet another failed to maintain a proper charge level on yet another battery. I asked the Schumacher rep about it following the first failure. He advised that they had improved the design and gave me a free replacement with the upgraded model. That replacement was the next one that failed. Shortly after that the third. So the next time I met with the rep I described my latest experiences. He then took the "well it is out of warranty so there is nothing I can do" attitude. Needless to say every Schumacher product I had went immediately into the trash.

I've been using "Battery Tender" brand since then and have had no issues. However I read that several people have complained about failures with them.

There are some really expensive brand name maintainers out there. I've asked around with several experts in the industry and they insist there is absolutely nothing different about those units, it's all just marketing. So who knows, is there really a better maintainer?
 
This is the Napa-branded battery I'm using in my wife's NB Miata. It's a Miata-specific AGM that vents using the factory tubes (important in a Miata). Works great, but with her working from home these days, we find that the car needs to be driven once a week or so to prevent the battery from dying. Not an issue if you use a trickle charger, of course.

I'm using a Costco-bought Interstate standard-size battery in my Scorpion, the car needs whatever weight it can get on the front end.
 
I bought an Exide AGM Group 24. I HATE the battery bracket design in my '82 - it's freakin' dangerous in my opinion (for short circuit in a crash). I'm 4 years in on that battery, and it works great.

My old AGM battery lasted 11 years.
 
myronx19 said:
My old AGM battery lasted 11 years.
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Curious, was that also an Exide?

Earlier I mentioned a discussion on another forum about battery maintainers. In the same discussion there is a member that runs a repair shop. He sells batteries as part of his service, but he is a small business and sells very few of them. So he only offers one brand, Bosch. He said the only reason he chose Bosch is his customers are mostly Mercedes owners and that's what came in the cars, so owners want the same brand. He doesn't feel the brand is any different from most, but the supplier he gets them from is also a friend of his. So that supplier is very helpful with covering warranties that shouldn't qualify. The shop's customers benefit as well as the business overall. One comment he made is he doesn't feel the extra price of a AGM is worth the difference. But understand his reason; he gets the regular batteries warrantied far beyond the normal period, much the same as the expected life of a AGM, so the lower cost of regular wet flooded ones is a real savings. That's a special circumstance. In my opinion the extra expense for a AGM may very well be worth it, especially for cars that don't get used much and mostly just sit on a maintainer.
 
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