Can we now buy X1/9 parts at Fiat Chrysler Dealerships?

Who funded the design work makes ZERO difference.

Now, answer the question put fort.

*Who styled and packaged the X1/9 (industrial design) and where was this work done?

Paying for the creation of intellectual property does not infer ownership and all rights to any specific design. There are MANY examples of this in the world of scientific and design work regarding intellectual property world wide.

If Fiat had such significant ownership and connection with Bertone why did Fiat group pay to purchase Bertone's Grugliasco production facility, is Bertone a division of Fiat?


Bernice
 
TGF the Internet

One word: Internet. If it wasn't for this beast, many of us wouldn't be here, sharing all of our collective knowledge and resources with everyone else. Could you imagine keeping this up dealing with paper catalogs and hand drawn 'how to...' sent through snail mail? Oh, well, there are telephones...
 
AFAIK Bertone does not have vehicle crash testing facilities, so the design of the chassis must have had large amounts of involvement from Fiat, who do own the crash testing facilities. This is in years before computer modelling and when testing was requiredfrom the initial design.

Remember the X19's design was largely influenced by the FMVSS's decision to increase speeds involved in crash testing, which were subsequently dropped as no other manufacturers (apart from Volvo whose design didn't make full production) could make it work.

So it must bear some significance on the design and the process involved, and must provide a clear link between Fiat and Bertone collaborating in the design process.

I'm afraid we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one Bernice...

and as far as the Grugliasco facilities, and I'm afraid I can't find a reference to it online... but can recall talk of Fiat financing at zero or near to zero interest rates, the money provided to Bertone for the plants construction...even the land was purchased in some back room deal from the Agnelli family... so in a "back door" way, they did have a large influence (although as I said before I don't know of any direct ownership link) on this facilities design and construction...and certainly jumped at the chance topurchase it outright when Bertone met it's financial demise.

Bertone may not currently be a division of Fiat, but never say never, they relaunched the Abarth branding after it languished for many years... and the Bertone family will probably sell off the naming rights one day soon...

SteveC
 
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Steve, you keep dancing around the direct question.

Answer who styles and packaged the X1/9, where was this work done?

Is Bertone a division of Fiat?

What is the rational and intellectual dishonesty for resisting answering this direct and simple question?


Bernice


fiatfactory said:
AFAIK Bertone does not have vehicle crash testing facilities, so the design of the chassis must have had large amounts of involvement from Fiat, who do own the crash testing facilities. This is in years before computer modelling and when testing was requiredfrom the initial design.

Remember the X19's design was largely influenced by the FMVSS's decision to increase speeds involved in crash testing, which were subsequently dropped as no other manufacturers (apart from Volvo whose design didn't make full production) could make it work.

So it must bear some significance on the design and the process involved, and must provide a clear link between Fiat and Bertone collaborating in the design process.

I'm afraid we are going to have to agree to disagree on this on Bernice...

SteveC
Click to expand...
 
Actually I believe I have answered those points Bernice... and believe I have a pretty strong argument for the "it's a FIAT" point of view.

SteveC
 
myronx19 said:
Al Cosentino did it all by mail :) (and phone!)
Click to expand...

You're onto something!
A while back someone posted that flashback R&T article from 1973 when the X1/9 "spider" missed the Turin Auto show by a week and it was Al C. in Italy scoping out the X firsthand and actually giving R&T the full detailed scoop. :italia::italia:
 
Bertone auction slated for September

fiatfactory said:
Bertone may not currently be a division of Fiat, but never say never, they relaunched the Abarth branding after it languished for many years... and the Bertone family will probably sell off the naming rights one day soon...
SteveC
Click to expand...

It was announced in early July there will be an online auction for all the remaining Bertone museum cars and Bertone brand name & logos in September.

Collection still considered National Heritage by the Ministry of Culture that can not leave Italy and must be purchased as an entire collection.
But rumor has it they might back off that now and sell individual cars off one by one if it doesn't sell as an entire collection.

If you're good with the language translator click on this link HERE brings you to the auction site.
Once there scroll down the page and click on where you see the word GALLARY to see all the museum car photos.

Then click on the the word DOCUMENTS gives you a PDF file showing each car individually and the starting price of the auction.
There all in there ... Nuccio's '77 blue X... 1981 2+2...'86 ASV.. GT Vert and Runabout..etc..

wardsauto

TURIN – The Bertone brand names and logo are going on the auction block, alongside the sports car designer and coachbuilder’s collection of 79 supercars, prototypes and models.

The starting price for the Bertone trademarks is €3 million ($3.3 million), with auction fees and 22% value-added tax raising the total price to €4 million ($4.4 million).

Interest in the Bertone trademarks is difficult to assess. A buyer simply might extract some residual value out of them or perhaps invest in them to maintain and further the brand equity. But history does not favor family names under corporate management; marques including Vignale, Ghia, Francis-Lombardi and Frua disappeared from the scene shortly after being sold by their founders.

Of much greater appeal is the second lot on the block, the 79-item collection recently acquired by Bertone Cento, the company established by Lilli Bertone in partnership with Marco Filippa only to go broke in 2014.

The lot goes on sale for €1.6 million ($1.8 million), with auction fees and VAT leaving the total price at €2.1 million ($2.3 million).

The most valuable vehicle in the collection likely is a ’67 Lamborghini Miura S, as well as three more Lamborghinis: a ’70 Espada, ’87 Countach and a one-off ’88 Genesis. Also offered are a ’75 Lancia Stratos, ’72 Alfa Romeo Montreal, ’63 Alfa Romeo Giulia SS, ’05 Cadillac Villa, ’84 Chevrolet Ramarro, ’79 Fiat Dino Coupe, ’76 Ferrari Rainbow and a unique lengthened Fiat X1/9 prototype built in 1981.

As the collection is privately owned and not in the public domain, officials have not yet ruled whether the vehicles can be removed from Italy under European Community rules governing national treasures.

The online auction runs from Sept. 14-28.
 
Hey Greg, with the collection you have,

They otta GIVE you the Bertone brand.
You have by far the best collection of Bertone nostalgia in the entire northeast. :woot: At least from my perspective.

I was going to suggest we split the cost of the franchise, but the price was a little too high ... :laugh:
 
So Greg, do ya think we should take up a collection?

What was it... $3M - $3.3M? We better get started. I'll volunteer to collect the funds... everyone can just PayPal me and I'll start up a "special" account!
 
Sad though.

Sad day when the museum chained up.
Even worse was the fact that Stile Bertone just built the new building in Turin celebrating 100 Year just 3 years back in 2012.
Never opened for the public I think and it was family private invite only. But plans were to be open to all.
Obviously those cars were very special but that new building was raved for being a work of art.
Then bam...goodbye.
I guess who knows..maybe someone will keep the collection together.

This would be funny though!

Just imagine that big 8 foot B that stood proud on the Bertone lawn..
WTH! is that big blue B doing on the side of the house..:laugh::laugh:

Btw this was the Sign that stood in front of Nuccio's blue '77 X1/9 if you have not seen..:geek:
Interesting text me thinks on what Bertone wrote pertaining to some of the topic in this thread..:italia:

 
Honestly Greg,

I had no idea this was slated to happen, it was simply a guess on my part based on objective observation on what the "familia" has done with the company so far....

Agreed, for that sort of money we could almost pass the hat around, but my guess (again) is that Fiat and the Italian government will make sure it stays in Italy and 99.9% I would say Fiat will pick up the naming rights.

When Fiat bailed out Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep I had a similar discussion with a good friend of mine who is an absolute Chrysler nutter, and has a beautiful collection of that brands iconic vehicles sold here in Australia and America. We were discussing/debating/arguing (over a couple of beers) the merit of said takeover/buy out (which he kept insisting on calling a merger) and my argument was that Fiat wasn't actually interested in the Chrysler/Dodge brands at all... the one and only brand and naming rights they were after..JEEP.

It's their only international selling and recognized brand.

Sure it helps Fiat with an already established dealer network etc, manufacturing plants and archaic engines that they can apply Fiats modern technology to... but deep down I think it was the JEEP brand name rights that sealed the deal.... we also agreed to disagree on that one, and had another beer.

edit....In a way it's a pity the lots are not sold individually, and they can't be exported from Italy... Nuccio's personal 1977 x19 only has a valuation of 3200euro!!! with 53409km on the clock .. I'd be onto that in a heartbeat for that money.... still looking at all the others, but that was the first one I had a squiz at.
http://www.benimobili.it/download.php?id=184697&mod=inline

SteveC
 
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Hi Steve, We knew this was going to happen since the Bertone bankruptcy just not the final date so really not that big of a stretch.

From our perspective in the US of course the JEEP was in Sergio's mind from the get-go. Huge score for him and I think his net worth is over $60 million so he is no dummy that is for sure.
JEEP Wrangler is on fire in the US. Never more popular and really has no competition in the class. So not sure what your mate was trying to debate you about as Chryslers name & build quality is not so good ..:)
Dealers in the US can't keep the Wrangler on the lots and I still can't wrap my brain that some Wranglers are selling for over $40,000 and most around $35,000. These are still Jeeps with problems in build quality, thin metal,lots of plastic and basic no-frill interiors although they were updated in 2011. My other passion is CJ7s & Wranglers so I won't turn this into a Jeep thread but maybe Sergio can get us a diesel option soon and not mess with the Iconic look..:)

I hope FIAT steps in somehow with this Bertone collection.
Maybe it can end up in Italy's national automotive museum.(Museo Nazionale dell'Automobile)
In the Italian press... seems to think there will be much interest. Spoken already is : Among the fans who have already expressed interest in the jewelry Bertone, an American collector who wants to take her to Milan to expose Zagato atelier.
All the pricing for the X1/9s is ridiculously low..We wouldn't stand a chance if they allowed them to leave Italy anyway.
As much as we would kill for one of them the X1/9 fanbase in Italy would snatch them up certainly..:italia:
 
Greg,

My mate Bob has a very interesting collection, about a dozen mid 60's to mid 70's Australian muscle cars (google chrysler valiant charger E38 and E49 for an example) and while I appreciate them for what they are, I will always find the engineering quite "agricultural" ... when compared to Italian engineered product of the same era.

But ...the prices for these early Australian muscle cars has gone thru the ceiling, and he would be currently sitting on close to half a mill of cars, that cost him nothing like that back in the 70's and 80's when he got into cars...such is the fickle nature of the enthusiast market.

Anyway he is such a "one eyed" supporter of his chosen marque, nothing would sway him...he even showed me comments on one Mopar forum that basically read that Chrysler had saved Fiats ass from financial ruin... how some people can turn a story around and be so blind to the truth is beyond me.

I always tell him the best part of his cars are the Webers that two were fitted with from the factory ..."'cos they are proper Italian engineering"
and actually how I know the guy in the first place, as about 30 years back I rebuilt and tuned his DCOE's ... and he still gets me to tune them, about once every five years.

SteveC
 
X1/9 Still 100% Fiat ?

To accept that is pure intellectual dishonesty, distortion of historical facts and dis-respect for those who created this work of art.

Too often individuals are NOT given full credit to a specific brand, company, cooperation or such that produced the produce a specific item of technology. Within this industrialized process, ignoring the individual who's intellect created it.

Companies, corporations, factories are not the source or entity that originates ideals, concepts, technical expertise, and all related to the creation of a technical item, they are a collection of individuals working together to achieve a specific goal. The real source of creativity, concepts and ideas often comes from a specific and rather special individual.

If one looks at how the patent system, scientific paper publication system works and who it credits, it is oriented towards the individual, not the company, corporation or organization that might have supported the creative intellectual work. The foundational concept of why these systems are set up this way has much to do with honoring the individuals intellectual property.

As for who was the individual who penned the X1/9's design and where this specific work was done can be easily found in books, historical archives, on the web.. it was not at Fiat. Fiat was just one identity that allowed the X1/9 to become reality.

Where does market value of a motor car or any material item come from, value of any material item is buyer perceived and driven by what the market is willing to pay for any given material item. It's actual contents often do not reflect directly towards it's inherent material value. This is why brand identity, marketing and all those touchy-feely perceptions of material items give material items value.

Car companies go racing and related promotion as part of their effort to create a specific public image and public brand identity. Since most motoring folks want to be associated with being a winner or of a specific social status, marketing organizations work to make this happen for the product they are promoting. Once a given brand identity has been created in the public mind and fixed for some length of time, it becomes the brand's market identity and often does not change and cannot be changed easily. This is why minerals like diamonds are perceived as having great worth even if a diamond is nothing more than a natural occurring material item formed from carbon or why a Ferrari, Detroit muscle car or ... is perceived as being highly valuable. As they convey a identity of being a winner, wealth and a specific social status to their owners.

All tugging at the strings of primal-instinctive human tribalism... for profit and the human need for self identity.

Been writing about stuff like this for years on Xweb, it is nothing new.

Back to the X1/9 being 100% Fiat, to accept that would be disrespectful to the individuals who created, unaccepting of historical fact and to deny the intellectual property created by these individuals. Bending historical facts becomes a means of self-deception of what an individual wants to believe or the creation of one's self serving, self created reality.

Some of the very best works of art, engineering, scientific discovery and more comes from understanding how nature works and making a symbiotic deal-relationship with nature rather than trying to force the ways of nature into one's self deceived ideas of what they want nature to do or behave.


Bernice
 
If you want to take it to that extreme, lets all call it a Gandini.

Marcello is the man who penned the design and if the man paying his salary has nothing to do with his intellectual property, why are you even arguing for the name Bertone?

If Fiat were wanting to kill off the X19 from the beginning, they did a crap job of it, the model lasted 17 years and over 160,000 units... so I think that is "anecdotal at best" for someone to make that assertion.

SteveC
 
Fiat engineer Giuseppe Puleo designed the x1/9 chassis.

Point being, the X1/9 is not 100% Fiat, there were a number if individuals from BOTH Bertone and Fiat involved in the creation of the X1/9.

As for Fiat killing off the X1/9, why did Bertone take over full production with continued parts support from Fiat?

The story of the X1/9 is not so simple with many complexities and should be considered a non-harmonious relationship between Fiat and Bertone for it's entire production life.

As for Fiat promoting the X1/9 and creating a desirable brand identity and market image for the X1/9, it could have easily been done by backing a fully supported racing program in the US car market in the same way as British Leyland, Porsche and others to create a race wining identity for the X1/9. Giving the X1/9 a LOT more power with upgraded chassis as a production variant would have also contributed significantly to the market perceived value of the X1/9..

None of which happened, why?

We know Fiat and all involved with the design, production and promotion of the X1/9 are fully capable of making what could have been reality.


Bernice

fiatfactory said:
If you want to take it to that extreme, lets all call it a Gandini.

Marcello is the man who penned the design and if the man paying his salary has nothing to do with his intellectual property, why are you even arguing for the name Bertone?

If Fiat were wanting to kill off the X19 from the beginning, they did a crap job of it, the model lasted 17 years and over 160,000 units... so I think that is "anecdotal at best" for someone to make that assertion.

SteveC
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