Car won't start without jump - Battery or Charging ?

J

jeffsc

Daily Driver
Hey guys, need some help, after being away from using the X for a about 6 weeks - had a scope to fix some rotator cuff issues, ready to get back into some fun stuff. Anyhow, I couldn't start the x today without a jumpstart, then it fires up and runs fine. Without jump the car will not even turn over, and even after 20 minutes of charging the battery cannot turn the motor over even once.

Thing is after searching and reading some posts about alternators and grounds and such I'm wondering if the alternator is charging the battery. While the car is running the headlights seem even slower then normal, the horn will not give me a beep, just a click, and the radio will not turn on. The voltage on the battery when car is not running is 12, but when running is a little lower about 11.5, if the alternator was charging the battery wouldn't it be about 12.5 ? I'm not quite sure how to check this without zapping myself. The ground straps from the trans to the lower body, and the negative from the battery to the body in front are solid.

Inclined to just spend the 60 bucks and drop a new battery in it and go from there...thoughts ?

thanks, Jeff
 
low charge

sounds like it not charging enough. Try disconnecting the + (pos)on the battery while it's running. If the engine turn off then its the alt. You should at least have 14 volts when running to charge the battery properly. Time for a new alt or voltage regultor. maybe you should consiter doing the chevy or mazada alt swap!
 
I think you are on the right track with the alt

IMHO, you should read 13v+ at the battery when the engine is running. The alt will put out 13v+, so that's what you should see.

If you are seeing 11.5v at the batt with the engine running, your charging system isn't working. Now you just have to figure out why.

Using a multi-meter, try these steps:

Test #1
---------
Test the voltage at the battery
a. Check and record the voltage at the batt without the engine running. You should see 12v+
b. Check and record the voltage at the batt with the engine running. You should see 13v+​

Test #2
---------
Test the continuity of the batt->starter->alt connection. The output wire of the alternator is connected to the starter, then the heavy cable from the starter to the batt carries the charge. So there is not direct wiring connection from the alt to the batt.

c. With the engine off, test and record the voltage at the output lug of the alt. (Put the meter between the output lug and chassis for ground.) This voltage should be very close to the voltage measured in Test#1 step a if the wiring is in good shape from the batt on back to the alt.​

Test#3
--------
Test the output of the alt with engine running. Be sure to goose the throttle to get the revs up over 1500 or soo to be sure the alt gets triggered.
c. With great care.. start the engine and re-test and record the voltage at the output lug of the alt. (Put the meter between the output lug and chassis for ground.) In a properly working system, this voltage should be 13v+ and also be very close to the voltage measured in Test#1 step b.​

Basically, these steps will give you an idea of where your problem lies. There are other things to look at, but this will get you started.

Record your data and let us know what you find.

Good luck!!
 
Dead battery.

Charge battery on a trickle charger. 6 weeks of sitting can do this.

Turn the key to on. Does the alt warning light light up? If not, replace the bulb and try again. Does it light up? Ok.

When it's fully charged, try to start the car with it, and test the voltage at the battery. Should be 13.8 or more when running. Should be 12.5 or better not running.

Once the car is running the alt light should go out. If it doesn't, then the alternator and/or regulator are suspect.
 
Voltage Drops at battery when running

Ok I did the first voltage test, waiting the engine bay to cool down.
Test 1 results
11.5 volts - tested at battery with engine not running
10.5 volts - tested at battery with engine running, but dropped steadily below 10, at about 8.5 it was still running, seemed to level off so I killed the engine. I assume this means there is no charge getting to the battery.

Test 2 Question: For the 2nd alternator test, is the bigger black negative (lower) cable the "output" lug ? I should unscrew this from the alt, and put one lead from the meter to it, and ground the other to the chassis ? The other red positive top connection is the little slide on tab design which doesn't seem very secure. It is dirty, I had tapped it a little tighter, wonder if I'm getting a good connection there.
Test 3 Question: Again is this the heavier negative wire I'm testing to the chassis for ground ? Not sure how I can disconnect and test with the engine running without burning yourself !? Should I run a seperate wire to the lug that I can connect to ?

thanks, Jeff
 
Jeff

Leave the big black cable hooked up just touch the teats lead to the lug and the other to ground. Vary carefully wail car is running and also car off.record your readings and let us know.

Also a bad or low charged battery can make you think you have an alternator problem make sure you are using a known good battery
 
Just curious. What model year you working on??

Hi Jeff,

I just realized we don't know what year of X you are dealing with. The early and late models are similar for sure, but they use different alts. Do you have a Marelli or a Bosch unit? Also, if it's a late model (1979+) I want to be sure you have the rear access panel out. Makes working on the alt much easier.
IM001744.jpg


I can't seem to find a decent pic of an alternator but IIRC.. On the later models there is only one large wire leaving the alt off the B+ terminal, then there is a smaller spade clip wire that runs to the dash charge light.

This section of the shop manual covers the charging system, but it is obviously written for shop mechanics that have a real good idea what they are looking at. It's not too descriptive as far as pics go.
http://www.midwesternmedicalmachine.com/~damonfg/X_FSM/PDF_Files/X1-9_553-01_55-17.pdf
 
Voltage low and dropping at alternator also

Thanks for everyone's help, you guys are like 3rd level tech support without having to go thru the helpdesk! :music: Here's what I've found so far:

Daniel, The engine does completely die when I pull the neg lead from the battery while running.:eek:

Jim, I have a 77 with a 1500/5 speed, with dual carbs. The alternator is labeled something like "lskra", and 14v 55a. I don't have that access panel- but perhaps this is the time to do the retrofit I've read Tony and others talk about.

Gregory, I don't have a trickle charger but I could get it charged tomorrow at the local discount auto - depending on what you guys think about the fact that voltage level from the alternator when then engine is started and running drops steadily within a minute or 2 from about 11.5 to 8.5 - the same behavoir as when I read the voltage directly from the battery- I assume this is just the battery running down and my alternator is not putting out anything at all.

Is there something else to check or do you guys think I need to order an alternator ? :wacko:

Thanks, Jeff
 
Trigger lead?

Daniel, The engine does completely die when I pull the neg lead from the battery while running.
Click to expand...

I would suggest not doing that test, for two reasons:

1. The manual strongly warns against it.

2. A common failure mode for voltage regulators is that the output transistor shorts which leads to the field winding operating at max current. With a battery in the system, it will act like a huge load limiting the system voltage. With the battery out of the circuit, the system voltage can go sky high and fry all sorts of components. Incidentally, some people install an extra alternator with a shorted voltage regulator in their trucks and use this as an arc welder.

Someone else mentioned it, but have you checked if the charge light comes on when you turn on the ignition? If the light does not come on, it means there is a problem with the trigger circuit for the alternator. On some cars a broken charge warning light is enough to make the alternator not work. There is often a resistor mounted in parallel with the charge light to make sure the charge system works even of the bulb breaks, don't know if this is the case with the X.

Does you alternator have an internal voltage regulator, or is it external?
 
Ahh that Jeff

I was thinking that your car was the 77 that had the Faza snorkel on it when you got it, but the "jeffsc" through me off because I thought "sc" might be South Caroline and you are/were in Tampa.

Anywho. You need a fancy signature that shows your car and gives the year/engine combo. You know, something like this:

Thanks, Jeff
1977 1500/5spd
dual webers
th_BertoneII.jpg

​
:)

I think Iskra is the Yugoslavian supplier. The Yugo shared the same Fiat engine etc, so I guess it isn't a surprise. I am leaning towards a dead alternator, but I would try to eliminate the battery as a factor like Gregory suggested.

Anybody know if you can temporarily use a battery from any car to test with? I have never tried it, it seems like it should work.
 
Disconnect the batt leads from the car both pos and neg and put the batt on a trickle charger overnight...be sure water is at proper levels.

Then while batt is charging, yank the alternator, first making a note of what wires go where.

The next day, take both to your friendly neighborhood parts store for free testing.
 
Working on both, pita

I don't get an "Alt" light, only get the "G" light, Brake, Oil, and seatbelt lights when I turn the key without trying to start it.

Can't seem to get the instrument panel out without destroying my dash - can you push this thing out from behind somehow to check those bulbs ?

Alternator bolts are frozen solid...having only 1 good arm doesn't help either... :wall: gonna run up to the auto store to get some penetrate stuff, and start the battery test, they will do the alt test for me if I can get it out!

Jeff
 
Instrument panel

jeffsc said:
I
Can't seem to get the instrument panel out without destroying my dash - can you push this thing out from behind somehow to check those bulbs ?
Jeff
Click to expand...

Remove the allen-head screws that hold it in, and then gentle pressure on the speedo cable and a bit of wiggling will get it out. If your dash is cracked, the panel tends to hang up on the little snags of vinyl and you'll have to hold them out of the way with a table knife.
 
Stupid Question about Alternator removal

The battery is definately bad, the dash lights are good, so I guess I could button it up and test it but I thought I'd still have the alternator tested in case its also a problem.

Do I need to remove the 2 lower bolts holding the lower bracket the alternator swings on ? Thats not what the shop manaul says but I removed the top nut and removed the lower nut ok, is that lower bolt supposed to slide out (it doesn't budge) or do I need get the entire lower bracket out that is held by two other bolts to the lower engine case and then drop the alternator with that lower bracket still attached to it from the bottom ?

thanks, Jeff
 
Problem solved- thanks!

Was the battery the whole time, I measure 13.5 volts while running at battery and at alt once I revved it. I learn a little everytime something goes awry. Going out for a sunday drive, thanks ! :headbang:

JeffSC
77x/1500cc
 
May not matter now, but for next time

jeffsc said:
Do I need to remove the 2 lower bolts holding the lower bracket the alternator swings on ? Thats not what the shop manaul says but I removed the top nut and removed the lower nut ok, is that lower bolt supposed to slide out (it doesn't budge) or do I need get the entire lower bracket out that is held by two other bolts to the lower engine case and then drop the alternator with that lower bracket still attached to it from the bottom ?
thanks, Jeff
Click to expand...

You don't have to remove the lower bracket. The lower bolt does slide out, but if it's been there for a while it may need a few gentle taps (I mean "gentle" - this is not a BFH application!) to get it moving.

Because you've loosened the top bolt, check the drive belt tension now... You may have slacked it a bit.
 
Grounds!

Check your ground straps too. The ground strap under the car can get dirty and needs to be cleaned. Check your battery ground, and make sure your batter cable connectors to the battery are good and tight. most are soft metal and can become loose. I had an issue with my 78 that it would not start unless it was jumped and lights were very dim, no charging. Replaced the batter, replaced the alt, and nothing fixed it. Figured out the transmission ground strap was loose. I took it off, cleaned it, cleaned where it mounts to the car, reinstalled it tightly and problem solved.
 
I always recommend an extra 4g wire for the engine-to-chassis ground, up on top where you can see it, in addition to any that already exist. A few bucks and you'll never worry about whether or not you've torn the lower one off on that last speed bump. :music:
 
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