Catastrophic engine failure on modded 1.5 FI 1983 X1/9

J

john2000online

New Member
Hey all, this is my first post. I saw an X1/9 in my neighborhood a few years ago and started getting obsessed. That one was rusty and "repaired" to a state of FUBAR but I finally bought one in late 2022 when it came up on Midwest-Bayless website. It was this one- a 1983 with Midwest-Bayless mods that they had rebuilt in 2019, 5000 miles ago- the listing is still up: https://www.midwest-bayless.com/t-1983-X19-RA.aspx

I picked it up in Columbus and drove to Chicago in November. Took it on some nice twisties in southern Ohio- all was great. I drove it all last summer around Chicago and over to Michigan once. No problems.

Decided to take it on a longer trip over to the Chesapeake for a bachelor party. Thought it would be wise to take it in for a once over so I found the local expert- Autosprint in Chicago. There were a few other X's in the lot and other Fiats- seemed great. He changed the oil and gave it a once over- found some rust in the fuel filter so drained and dried the tank and changed the fuel filter. I hit the road- first day, made it from Chicago to a campsite in West Virginia. She was cruising just fine and engine temps were solid, never budging from the middle of the gauge.

Second day, I stopped for gas and then got back out on the interstate, cruising around 70 MPH. The engine suddenly lost all power and quit. I pulled over to the shoulder and tried to see if the fuel pump had lost power - no luck. Eventually got towed to a local shop who realized it was a big problem. They thought it was "out of time" which turned out not to be right but regardless it was beyond them. I rented a Chevy, went to the bachelor party, ate a picnic table full of crabs, and then flew home from DC.

After getting her transported back to Autosprint, he found lost compression in 2 cylinders, took off the cylinder head and saw not just a blown gasket but a lot more. Engine was shot. I send his picture back to Midwest-Bayless and got the attached observations- his read is that one cylinder was running extra lean perhaps due to a blockage. Makes me wonder whether Autosprint knocked some crud loose that clogged it- regardless I don't think I can necessarily hold it against them. They think it was a result of the mods increasing the compression too much. I guess it was both- the mods put it in a condition where a flow blockage could more easily lead to high ignition temps and catastrophic failure.

Both of them say they can put in a new engine for for $6-8K, Midwest is offering a "lightly modded" one with ~15 extra HP for $2k more. I am inclined to stick with stock after this experience... I'd prefer to make it home than to risk it all to be a little quicker. Didn't know a modded car would do this but seems better to avoid.

Not sure how comfortable I'll be taking her for a road trip again... anyone take theirs for long trips at highway speeds? Seen a similar problem? Any other thoughts on what went wrong and how to avoid it?

THANKS
 

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Hard to tell from the photo... beyond the piston material being deposited on the cylinder wall, did Autosprint say that the cylinder was beyond repair?
 
I don't think the problem is because of the modifications, but I could be wrong. My first guess would have been a slipping timing belt, causing a wrong timing and some internal damages. But, like I said, I maybe wrong. I'm not a professional mecanician.

This could have happened to a stock engine.

About confidence for long trip, I'm usually driving a few street corners for the first outings, then going to the grocery. The next time, to the nearest city, and after a few time without any trouble, I would travel farther. I'm doing this with every car with major repairs or modifications. But even then, "**** happens", like it did to you after many long trips. Good luck!
 
The analysis by the shop is certainly plausible---a partially clogged injector would create a lean condition. On a stock North American fuel injected engine with the nominal 8.5:1 compression ratio this might have manifested itself as a lean miss and maybe not much more. On an engine with a shaved cylinder head, reprofiled cam and header, and bigger valve head with perhaps in the mid to high 9's for a compression ratio, that would be less forgiving of a lean condition.

Under the assumption that you would certainly want to run a higher octane gas with the stated mods, stopping for gas could also be a clue---could you have inadvertently filled up with regular and not premium? Or maybe the station had mixed up grades and had regular in the premium tank?

What did the shop say about sending the existing engine out for a rebuild? A detonation event that transfers some material like yours did generally would not automatically condemn an engine from being rebuilt---you'd expect to replace all bearings, oil pump, and likely have to bore out the block to the next oversize (depending of course on how scored the cyl walls are), which would require new pistons and rings. Again depending upon how bad, maybe the crank would need to be cut or replaced. These bottom ends are pretty tough.

Cyl head wise, unless a seat dropped, the head should be able to be reconditioned (possibly straightened if nec because the shaving process does not leave a lot of "meat" for more shaving to flatten it--more shaving equals still more compression).

If the $6-8k pricetag is a budget buster, there are forum members who have engines in various states in their parts piles, that might be an option to consider. IIRC the Chicago area does have an active FIAT community so if you haven't already, ask those guys for some advice, too.:)
 
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I have the exact same car, but without the engine mods. I vaguely remember reading that the stock EFI will run lean with the modifications done on your car. What do the spark plugs look like? Are they a whitish colour?
 
Sorry to hear of your problems :(, but props for continuing on your trip! 👍

It's hard to say with limited information but I can't understand why the engine is "shot". Just a guess, but you probably have limited experience with engines? If that's true you probably need to hire someone to find you an alternative, or rebuild yours. $6K-$8K with an additional $2K sounds like a lot to me, but I do my own engine rebuilds/mods. I do farm out machine work (and that's not cheap), but from the information available it looks like some very basic rebuild, including new pistons, boring the block, checking for warped head, damaged block deck, and if you have to - a valve job. Even with the additional "while your in there" stuff, I think a basic rebuild, for a reasonable price, is possible.

I'm puzzled by the events that led to the failure.
A: How long were you driving before the engine stopped?
B: How long was it "up to temp"?
C: Was there any loss of power before it stopped?
D: Any noise?
E: How fast were you driving?
F: Did water get into the oil? (Was it "milkshaked"?)
G: Did you loose a lot of coolant, which made it hot?
H: Was there oil in the coolant?

I agree with the diagnosis that the engine got hot, that was likely the cause for the transfer of aluminum to the block. But why was it so hot? Did the head gasket blow first, or did it get hot after the head gasket blew? I am skeptical of the lean cylinder theory, but, who knows?

Anyway at this point you either rebuild your damaged engine, or replace it with a known good one. Or, you bail and sell the car with a bad engine. I think you would be able to find someone who would be interested in buying the car to "fix", mechanical problems are the easiest to deal with.

Good luck!
 
My guess is lost power happened when the gasket blew between the cylinders. I expect it wouldn't take much running to steam clean the piston so could have happened after the gasket blow.

I'd be more concerned about the lean cylinder. I am surprised the garage didn't look at the injector that goes with the cylinder. Should be easy for them to tell if it's blocked or not. It does seem to be only 1 cylinder that was running lean.

Repair or replace depends on how much you are handing over the a garage to do or how much you do yourself. As said these can almost always be rebuilt but sometimes it just costs more than a replace.
 
Lean running per cylinder in a Bosch L-jetronic motor often means an injector or fuel delivery problem. It is surprise to not know a cylinder was running that lean as there would be no possible way this Lampredi SOHC engine would have been running as it should.

Bosch fuel injectors have a fine wire mesh screen filter as a secondary measure to prevent stuff from entering the injector and clogging it. Bosch injector failures are very rare, sticking Bosch, Denso or any other high quality injector is a lot more common due to old gasoline and degraded gasoline. All it would take is a sticking or stuck injector due to a chemical film (not dirt/debris) to cause injector problems resulting in a lean running at cylinder# 2.

Do the post mortem detective work, carefully remove injector# 2, send it out along with the others to a proven reliable and quality-service oriented fuel injector facility to have injector# 2 tested for proper function. The others can be serviced/cleaned as needed if they test ok.

Lean running could also be due to an air lean between the intake plenum to intake runners to cylinder head.. Do check the exhaust at cylinder# 2 as a serious exhaust leak can also cause moderate lean running.

Block can be bored oversized with oversized pistons if needed. Alternative is to find a known good used engine or short block and install it ...
after the reason(s) and cause of the lean running condition at cylinder# 2 has been discovered, verified and properly corrected or an identical failure will happen with the replacement engine.


Bernice
 
I personally prefer my X for long road trips. I have done some very long trips, which you guys in Europe would think I am crazy... Multiple trips from Washington State to Arizona. 1,500 miles one way. They are just great. Don't let one bad experience run your view of it. Set the RPM to 4k in 5th, and let the good times roll.
 
Generally any modifications to any engine will include some trade-off for reliability. The more modified, the more that trade-off. As has been stated the stock FI system has a limited ability to support engine modifications. However that depends on the specific modifications and the condition of the FI system. Likewise for other issues; overheating is not uncommon for these vehicles, same for head gasket failures. Others will disagree with that last sentence but I find there tends to be rather strong bias with some highly enthusiastic owners. Regardless it is difficult to determine how much the engine modifications contributed to the failure, as there are many factors to consider. Personally I prefer to not use any of my vintage vehicles for long trips as I never want to experience the exact situation you encountered. Simply put, older cars are not as dependable or reliable as newer ones. But as I said, everyone will have their own opinions.

I agree with the others about the current status of your engine. You will need a lot more details about it before you can determine if it is worth rebuilding or not. The cost to either rebuild or replace the engine can vary significantly depending on exactly what is needed and who does the work. And only you can decide if the car warrants the expense.
 
When I redid my engine after a thrust bearing failure over 5 years ago, I got a MWB performance head (shaved .075, fire ring gone), and used Vick's pop-up pistons (raised CH, small flycuts) with their uprated fuel injectors (no changes to AFM, just bypass adjustment) Allison exhaust.
So pretty high compression and definitely an interference engine now.
I've had no trouble for several thousand miles, including a 3+ hour run with a long uphill near the end recently.

Those marks look like a broken ring. Did that cylinder eat something?
Was your head retorqued at 500 miles?
 
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The scouring and metal transfer would happen if the engine got so hot at that point that the piston "nipped" i.e. had a partial seize. The point between cylinders 2 and 3 is the hottest part of the engine, as the exhaust valves are paired at this point. If the engine was going to nip anywhere from getting hot, that's where it would be.

The fire ring bulging like that on cyl 2 definitely indicates a detonation issue causing the initial gasket failure, from the picture anyway, I'd need to see a better pic of the head gasket and block/head gasket faces to make a better diagnosis.

The block can be rebored and saved... seldom do SOHC blocks warp and distort the block surface or the main tunnel or crack ... so the blocks can more often than not be saved. Pistons for the 1500 come all the way to 1mm oversize, so all the way up to 87.4mm...

The head probably cant be saved, as the (over) skimming of the head initially to increase the static CR doesn't leave sufficient material to perform any remedial re-surfacing if it becomes warped from overheating.

SteveC
 
Sorry to hear about your engine. I guess you have to remember these cars are around 40 years old and were not know as the most reliable brand at that time so you will have problems. I think you were dealt a bad hand with this issue. As to the performance modes, most these bring the car up to the European spec so I really don't think they played a huge role here.

Lot of the people above here have great knowledge so listen to what they say. Don't know if you ae the type to rebuild these car or just enjoy driving them. Myself I am a rebuilder and find it half the fun. This is nothing but a set back.
 
Odd not to see anything on the temp gauge. Yeah, they aren't "accurate" but this is a case where things got hot enough to do real damage. Very surprising not to see temp up and oil pressure down before the pop. What sort of oil was used for the change?? When was the filter changed?
 
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That's a beautiful little X. If you really enjoy driving her, and want to enjoy the upcoming nice weather, buy a stock 1500 from a member nearby, slap it in, bolt on your aftermarket exhaust and keep driving. It'll sound about the same and probably save you an ulcer noodling over the "Why's".

Grenade'd engine is water (and $$$) under the bridge. You got 5K out of a 40 YO engine (designed 60+ years ago) with mods. Not ideal, but sadly not at all uncommon. If members were surveyed, most of us could tell the same story. "No Warrantee expressed or implied"
 
10,000$ seems a lot for a refurbished X1/9 engine. I would think you can re-use your cylinder head unless it warped well beyond the usual. There's no mention of high compression pistons or modifications to the block in the advert you linked to. You might need a new block, or perhaps just refurbish your current block. The biggest deal will be figuring out the cause, but the Xweb folk are pretty good at helping though that investigation. You could probably find an entire running X1.9 for less than that price, and swap the block!
 
Someone just posted a FB page with a guy selling an X1/9 engine for $175, not mine. I know nothing about it but, it is an 1500 FI based on the pictures. May help you. As usually buyer beware.

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I can't speak to the engine mods - they're not listed in the MWB ad - but I can speak to the idea of long distance drives. My X had about 180,000ish miles on it when the exhaust valve seals voiced their desire to be replaced. I've taken it on several >1,100 mile tours with FIAT America and have gone on some other drives on my own of close to 1,000 miles without any problems. My car has about 363,000 miles on it.

If you have another car that is your daily driver and you can keep your X in a garage when it's not being driven, contact Hagerty to get the car covered by collector car insurance - they have an agreed upon value if anything happens to it with an option of $0 deductible, then keep it and keep doing long distance drives in it when you need.
 
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