Clutch in - idle drops

bmck

True Classic
After five years I have finally sorted out my idle problem by swapping out the carb. It's great to not need three feet when stopped at a red light!

I have her idling quite consistently at 1000rpm, however as soon as I depress the clutch, idle drops to 500rpm, she stumbles and dies.

How could a disengaged clutch affect idle? A little bit of force on the end of the crank should have no effect, should it?

Regards,

Brian
 
Not sure what the previous symptoms were, and knowing those might help in diagnosing this problem.

In the absence of any more info only one thing comes to mind, and it's not pretty: if the thrust bearings are gone the crank would bear directly on the block, and that might cause enough friction to drop the idle that much on a low powered motor like ours.

Sure hope that's not the case because if it is the crank and block are probably beyond repair.

Any noise when you depress the clutch pedal? How about at any other times?

Ever noticed any metal in the motor oil or filter? How many miles on the motor?

///Mike
 
I have never heard of such a problem...

Are you saying 500 rpm as INDICATED on your tach?

If so, does that 500 rpm appear unusally low, like its really about 300?

If you raise the idle up from 1000 to 1500 and then depress the clutch, does it still drop 500 rpm down to 1000 or what?

In any case, something sound really WRONG here. Is there any decernable noise, like a FROZEN throw-out bearing? Have someone depress the cltch and release it while you listen under the hood, either by standing close or a stethoscope or broom handle, listening to the clutch at the bell housing.

That's about all I can think of at the moment... Anxious to hear what you find.
 
Clutch / idle

On some 4 speed models there was a configuration which activated vacuum on the carb (briefly) when you changed into 4th. It had something to do with emissions. It involved a switch on the gearbox (to sense 4th) and a switch on the clutch pedal.

Does your car have a button screwed on over near the coolant expansion tank? What are the symptoms if you push this button?

Cheers,
Dom.
 
Last edited:
That button...

is for the seatbelt interlock system on 74 and 75 models only, I believe. I think it is there for a mechanic to by-pass while wrenching. I have one on my 74, "belt interlock".

By-passed this system on mine with a jumper wire under the dash.
 
... not in Australia at least...

is for the seatbelt interlock system on 74 and 75 models only, I believe. I think it is there for a mechanic to by-pass while wrenching. I have one on my 74, "belt interlock".

By-passed this system on mine with a jumper wire under the dash.

In Australia at least it is there to activate the system that I mentioned (also see: http://xwebarchives.org/forum/12159/message5/95095623/SWITCH_O.HTM).

We don't have a seatbelt interlock system in Australia (or in Europe for that matter). We can at least remember to put our seatbelts on :wink2:

Dom.
 
I'd try approaching it with a simpler explanation in mind, such as whatever parts are moving when the clutch pedal is depressed are pinching a wire (or much less likely a fuel line) that is shorting out something in the ignition, FI (if you have FI) or emission control systems.

The above would be my guess if the symptoms were consistent with a "drop off the edge of a table" kind of drop in idle speed.

OTOH, if the symptoms are more along the lines of, the more I depress the pedal gradually the slower the engine gets equally gradually, then the other ideas of friction in the crankshaft would make more sense.
 
Check the ground strap; if the ground is bad the clutch cable can act as a grounding route. Stepping on the pedal could then interrupt the ground, causing the idle to drop precipitously.
 
I gotta ask

Hi Gregory... "clutch cable"??? I know it's hydraulic front to back, but is there a cable in the system somewhere? I am really asking... not trying to be a smartass.
 
On some 4 speed models there was a configuration which activated vacuum on the carb (briefly) when you changed into 4th. It had something to do with emissions. It involved a switch on the gearbox (to sense 4th) and a switch on the clutch pedal.

Does your car have a button screwed on over near the coolant expansion tank? What are the symptoms if you push this button?

Cheers,
Dom.

ahhh i wondered what that switch is! good to know! seems like the australian models are plenty different to any other countrys? seems to be a few oddities like that on them.
 
The switch mimics the switch on the tranny that would activate an electric idle solenoid on some models. The valve when open allows manifold vacuum to hold open the throttle between upper gears so that the throttle cannot snap shut and cause a rich condition.

The idea is that you press it and adjust the throw on the linkage for this "fast idle". Kinda cool, kinda fussy.

Ulix rewired his and uses it as a remote starter switch.:wink2:
 
Dear All,

Many thanks for all your replies and suggestions. I'll add a few more clues in no particular order...

1. A few months back I replaced rear crank seal, clutch plate, pressure plate, throw-out bearing and had the fly wheel lightened.

2. Shortly thereafter I swapped my 32DATRA for a 34DMTR to address my idle issue.

3. Noises. Depressing the clutch creates no new noises - other than silencing slight gear noise. I have used a broomstick stethoscope all over the area and can't pickup anything much other than a slight vibration heard with broomstick on clutch arm and clutch depressed.

4. I have 28mm of travel on the clutch arm.

5. Clutch engages with pedal half-an-ant's-fart off the carpet.
I have no free play in adjustment on clutch arm. If I slacken the adjustment any, the clutch doesn't seem to disengage - resulting in difficulty selecting 1st with pedal to floor.

6. No metal spotted in motor oil.

7. When idling at 1000rpm, depressing clutch drops the idle by about 400rpm which gets me into snuff territory. Lift idle to 1200, it drops by 200. Lift idle to 2000, it doesn't drop at all. I suppose this indicates a friction-induced issue.

8. Oz 4th gear emission stuff no longer in place. No switch on clutch pedal. I changed my fast idle test switch into a remote starter switch.

9. No seatbelt interlock stuff in this part of the world.

Any ideas appreciated.

Regards,

Brian
 
Brian...

What were the symptoms of the idle problem that led you to swap carbs?

How long have you owned the car?

How many miles on the engine?

When did the problem start occurring?

Did you do any work to the car just before the problem began?

Did it begin all of a sudden or is it something that has gotten worse over time?

Was the clutch take up point that deep in the stroke before you changed the clutch and had the flywheel lightened?

Is the idle drop consistent every time you dip the pedal, or are there times when the idle does not fall as much?

Is the throttle linkage free and unbound?

Does the idle screw have the expected effect if you adjust it with the clutch disengaged (pedal up)?


Frankly, this one is baffling so I'll ramble a little in case it helps you or anyone else call to mind a potential cause.

The low clutch pedal could support the theory that there is excessive crankshaft end play. But if there's enough friction to slow the idle speed it seems like there would be noticeable noise.

Since there is no switch on the clutch pedal it seems unlikely that the problem is electrical, even though it sounds as though it could easily be electrical in nature (that's the first place my mind went). Even if the problem is a bad ground (the only thing I can think of in the absence of a pedal actuated switch) it's tough to see how a bad ground would lower the idle that much. In short (no pun intended), I'm having a difficult time coming up with an electrical problem that would account for the idle drop without revealing itself elsewhere.

Assuming it's not electrical in origin, what are the potential mechanical causes? Is there any way that the idle is actually controlled by the throttle linkage itself, and that depressing the clutch causes enough of a shift in the throttle linkage to drop the idle? Highly unlikely, since the clutch and brake pedals are totally separate from the throttle pedal, so for that to even be a possibility the throttle linkage at the carb would have to be really goofed up. But at least something to consider... If the car had mechanical throttle linkage I'd be asking about the motor mounts, but with a cable actuated throttle it seems unlikely that the engine shifting positions could cause the problem.

I can't think of anything else that could happen to the carb itself to cause the idle to drop that much. Can anyone else?

The only other mechanical cause my tiny l'il brame can conceive of is friction. And the only thing that comes to mind there is trashed thrust bearings. It could explain the idle drop, as well as the low clutch takeup point.

If it was my car I'd want to get a rough idea of the crankshaft end play in order to see if there's an obvious problem. Unfortunately, I don't know of a good way to accurately measure crank end play with the engine and gearbox in place. But you could check it visually-- the factory spec for a new thrust bearing is .0021"-.0104" (.055 mm-.265 mm), so a missing or really badly worn thrust bearing would likely be quite noticeable.

So here's what I'd do: start the engine, depress the clutch pedal, shut the engine off, wait for it to come to a full stop, release the clutch pedal. That should load the crank towards the front of the motor. Then take a pry bar or long screwdriver (I'm talking the 3'+ he-man version, not an actual screwdriver) and pry against the front pulley, using the lower longitudinal frame rail as a fulcrum. The allowable end play is quite small, so if you notice much movement at all further investigation would be in order.

Sorry for prattling but hopefully the questions and suggestions will be of some use in advancing the diagnostic process.

///Mike
 
Brian... WOW.. Thanks for CLEARLY addressing...

... the questions/suggestions we asked.

Your answers though, have still left us in a quandry.

ONE THING though... which is a far-fetched reach... was Jim Decker's suggestion that the ground strap might be the problem... or something that contributes to the failure electrically. I think since nothing else makes sense, let's eliminate THIS possibility by simply adding a jumper (cable?) between the engine and the chassis as another ground source. Then depress the clutch and see if the idle still sinks. If is does, the at least we've eliminated this possibility.

Have ya noticed that this problem has cause most of us to RAMBLE a bit... This is one hell of an unusual problem!

I tend to feel it HASTA be something mechanical and if so, it would be making some sort of RACKET... but apparently not. Sorry, but I have nothing more to contribute at this time.

Another question... is the trans working properly... I mean if you can get the car rolling and shift quick enough so the engine doesn't die, does it drive kinda normally?

Another question... As you slowly depress the clutch... do the rpms start to drop SLOWLY, (like some sort of clutch slippage...) or when you get maybe halfway to the floor, it all of a sudden drops?

Lastly, you obviously have some help... can you try taking a VIDEO with lots of close ups and posting that?

Here's hoping ya find it soon and its easy... otherwise, I think its time to pull the trans and look at the clutch and flywheel again.

HEY... you said if you raise the idle to 2000 rpm there is NO drop in rpm. How 'bout BORROWING a hand-held "tune-up" tachometer and verify the rpms. I never trusted this stock guage, as you only need t use it for a REFERENCE. My car idles at about 1500 indicated, but I'm sure its a lie.

Secondly... I'd like to see about 32mm of clutch arm travel. Try purging any more air outof the system by first loosening the "Banjo Bolt" on the slave cylinder, (pump the pedal three times and hold, blow off air/fluid and re-tighten, do this 3 times), and ten purge it at the Bleeder Screw using the same technique. See if you get any more throw.

Thirdly... at what point did this trouble first occur... between carb changes, after clutch was installed... when was it operating NORMALLY???
 
Last edited:
Those are some great ideas Tony!

Adding a temporary engine ground would be a great way of ruling out a ground problem.

And, perhaps more importantly, knowing if the idle drops progressively would help determine if the cause is mechanical or electrical in nature.

That's some good stuff there. Heck, you're NOT old, you're just experienced. :)

And yeah, Brian's answers indicate he's really looking hard for an answer. Let's hope he finds one, and that it's a better one than I keep coming up with.

BTW Brian, you might try searching he old archives to see if there are any posts regarding trashed thrust bearings. It's not something I've personally seen before but it might not be all that unheard of. I do know there are engines that are prone to thrust bearing failure, although I haven't heard of the Fiat SOHC as being one them.

///Mike
 
///Mike... I am honored by your comments...

...but what the hell are you doing up this late???

Lastly... I didn't wanna mention that thrust bearing or seal, or even consider the crank end-play was even a remote consideration. But if it is... that will be something to look at if the trans needs to come out.

"Experienced", huh... Reminds me of:

"Most GOOD advice comes from experience... and most of that is BAD".

Good night!
 
Did the clutch engagement point change significantly after the replacement of the parts as compared to before replacement of the parts?

Something to consider: a possibility that you lightened the flywheel too much.
 
Similar symtoms in 1974

This was with a 1972 Triumph Spitfire. It was two years old and I had run it low on oil. It was knocking and needed a motor job. I had it done but when I picked it up the shop told me there was end play in the crank because the thrust bearing had been ruined and the crank had damaged the block. He showed me how much by push-pull on the flywheel and it was easily seen to move. He didn't know if it would be alright or not. I forget if the block was able to be fixed or not. When put it back in the car ,it did as yours is doing.
It immediately came to mind when I read your post a few days ago but I was reluctant to answer just then. Hope this is not your problem.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top