Coilovers

[Rob1400T]

Hello everybody.
I've a question for those who have ordered the coilover kit from Vick Autos.
Are the shock tubes shorter than the original Fiat 1500 shocks?
I know the standard 1300 shocks are 1" lower on the rear than the 1500.
I've seen a few images from customers who have them with there cars at a nice ride height. Just wondering about the crashing/bump stop/bottoming out situation!
Many thanks
Rob

 

[tigeravg]

Four nice things about their coilovers;
1) inexpensive
2) adjustable ride height
3) able to balance chassis, corner to corner
4) a bit more clearance for a larger wheel/tire combo.
Only negative seems to be (at least for me) was that the protective accordion-style rubber boot inside the coil almost immediately shreds. I called Vicks, and they shrugged it off...said this happens all the time and to just simply remove the shredded material - like they do. Not really satisfied with that explanation or fix. That being the case, still kinda hard to knock that kit for the cost. No "Ass-low" squat. As for bump-stop, I drove my car pretty aggressively and didn't notice any inordinate "bottoming out".

 

[carl]

I think you need to redefine your question about which dimension you are really after. I have them on my X and have the stock 1500 struts under my deck so I'm more than happy to take any measurements you want.

I had the same experience with the rubber boots and got the same response. I ripped mine off and run bare naked...just like motorcycle shocks. When I pulled off the boots I found I had lowered the car too much and was riding on the bump stops. If you want to run their coilovers to drive real low then they won't work but for reasonable lowering or standard height they are fine. You can also adjust camber with them.

 

[Rupunzell]

Threaded collar strut housings can gain ride height adjustability and the stuff related to that. The more important item is the ability to install GOOD dampers on the suspension. Dampers like Koni 8611 or 8610 when set up properly can make a very real difference in how the chassis-suspension behaves with the ability to tune-adjust.

The other benefit is the ability to use 2.5" diameter springs which can be had in good quality (Hyperco, Swift, Eibach and...) at 50 lb/in increments typically. Adder springs like helper springs (the are normally compressed flat, but extend when the suspension is at full droop to prevent the primary spring from completely unloading) or bump springs to momentarily increase spring rate to help with sudden bump loads (typically used in dirt-circle track racing) and more..

Some housings offer a camber adjuster built in, which is another nice feature.

Do this properly, figure $1600 on dampers (koni 8611) and cost of housings. This might not include the cost of strut tops and all related hardware to install them.


Bernice

 

[Agnelli]

Threaded collar strut housings can gain ride height adjustability and the stuff related to that. The more important item is the ability to install GOOD dampers on the suspension. Dampers like Koni 8611 or 8610 when set up properly can make a very real difference in how the chassis-suspension behaves with the ability to tune-adjust.

The other benefit is the ability to use 2.5" diameter springs which can be had in good quality (Hyperco, Swift, Eibach and...) at 50 lb/in increments typically. Adder springs like helper springs (the are normally compressed flat, but extend when the suspension is at full droop to prevent the primary spring from completely unloading) or bump springs to momentarily increase spring rate to help with sudden bump loads (typically used in dirt-circle track racing) and more..

Some housings offer a camber adjuster built in, which is another nice feature.

Do this properly, figure $1600 on dampers (koni 8611) and cost of housings. This might not include the cost of strut tops and all related hardware to install them.


Bernice

Will aforementioned Konis fit inside old school Koni Reds with stock springs?

 

[Jefco]

The Vick struts are complete to the body mounts, the original spring perches are not used so they get around the difference between 1300 and 1500 suspensions; they come with roller bearings (for steering) and spherical bearings in solid aluminum mounts, avoiding the rubber mounts.
The boots on mine shredded too.
If I had it to do over, I would go with the softer spring option (which I may update to in the future).

 

[Dr.Jeff]

They are the same basic length as stock struts, so not much lowering can be achieved without running on the bumpstops and constant bottoming out. And your satisfaction will depend greatly on which VAS coilovers you buy; the lower priced ones have extremely low quality inserts that are under dampened when new and wear out very quickly. The higher priced ones are better. I inquired about replacing the inserts on mine (the low price model) with the better inserts offered in the more expensive kits, with new replacement ones like came in them, or with anything else. The response was the same as what others got about the crappy dust boots (no real answer). And be aware the "solid mounts" (as @Jefco described) makes for a fairly harsh ride compared to stock mounts. You may also find the overall finish on these coilovers will corrode and rust (perhaps depending on where you live and how you use your X). Sadly there are very few choices for coilovers to fit the X. And all of them are higher priced than similar kits for other vehicles. So depending on your budget, expectations, intended utilization, and personal level of experience, these may or may not be worth buying. But regardless, I recommend to avoid the lower priced option from that supplier.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

Will aforementioned Konis fit inside old school Koni Reds with stock springs?

Good question. I doubt it. For one thing the Koni reds were not designed for "insert" style cartridges, so things like the top gland nut may not work with them. And while their housings are slightly larger diameter than the stock struts (around 1mm bigger), I still don't think they are large enough for the fatter insert cartridges. Plus the reds are rebuildable, so you could have them revalved to whatever spec you desire and achieve pretty much the same result (and for roughly the same expense).

 

[Rob1400T]

Thank you for such a quick response gents.

I need to measure the the length of the front and rear struts from the bottom (outer strut tube) to where the chrome rod enters. Are these measurements shorter when compared to the original struts?

I'll elaborate a bit further as to why I'm asking for these measurements.

I'm currently running AVO adjustable coilovers with camberplates from http://www.abarth-online.de/Einstellbare-Domlager-Autobianchi-A112alle-TypenAbarthX1/9

I'm also using a strengthening shock tower plate, I'd estimate to be 2mm thick. I've modified my shock towers so the camber can be adjusted on the car without having to dismantle.

The car sits at the level shown in the picture .which I'm sure you will agree is not excessively low, but looks right. The ride has been awful, to the point that I've given up driving it this year. Further investigation revealed the dust covers had compressed and were acting as bump stops. As they were completely deformed, I removed them completely.

A quick test drive later and the ride was much improved, until - wham! A small bump in the road caused the top of the spring perch to smack the strut tube. I've now had to raise the height of the car significantly get to the point at which the bangs no longer occur and sadly my X1/9 now looks like it's heading off road, 4x4 style!

Whilst I cant recall the measurements of my shock tubes, when placed next to 1500 X1/9 struts, they are exactly the same height. If the Vick auto struts are shorter than the originals I'm tempted to sell the AVOs, replace and be done with it.

If they are the same height, I'm back to the drawing board.

Fitting the springs and camber plates was a massive pain in the backside! Some components had to be re-manufactured to get them to fit together and allow the top nuts to secure everything.

The top hat is dome shaped rather than flat. This takes up valuable space up the chrome rod.
The camber plates are thicker than the original top mounts, thus adding to ride height.
The 2mm (estimated, it was a while back) thick strut plates I doubt have bent into any form of shape thus adding to more ride height.

The Mid West camber plates look like they can be fitted on the top of body which would help my situation if I converted mine in that way, although I still have reservations over that design.

Thoughts and feedback welcome! Thanks everybody!

Rob

 

[Dr.Jeff]

Looks like we posted at the same time. As I said, you won't benefit from them in regard to your lowering/bottoming issue. I think you are better off coming up with something based on the coilovers you already have.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

If the AVO's are rebuildable then they might be able to shorten them for you (it's been done with other coilovers). Another approach is to modify the strut towers to raise the top mounts a little - like the ones in the pic you posted from MWB; not only having the camber plate on top, but also altering the height of the tower with custom plating. However there is only so far up you can go before hitting the lids/bonnets. You might gain some travel by modifying the components on the top of your struts; it sounds like you are losing some ride height there.

 

[Rob1400T]

Springs are 150lbs front and 200 rear. I've added anti roll bars front and rear from Midwest.

 

[Rob1400T]

Dr. Jeff, agreed. The AVOs are rebuildable here in the UK and are generally regarded as a half decent brand.
I'd be interested in hearing from someone who has fitted camber plates in the way shown in the picture.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

Springs are 150lbs front and 200 rear.

I was going to suggest your poor ride might be from too stiff of springs, as most aftermarket coilovers often have. But those rates are not hard at all. They are about right (in my opinion) for a street driven (non-track) car. However a softer spring like these can also allow for more bottoming out when lowered too far (as you found). So I'm sure that was the reason for your poor ride quality - they were pretty much running on the bumpstops. Another forum member found the same with his VAS coilovers. Increasing the spring rates will reduce the bottoming out at low height settings, but the trade off is a harsher ride. I'd start by seeing what can be done to shorten your coilover housings/internals. It is the best way to achieve a lower ride without a lot of the other compromises. Does AVO have a forum where others may have done this? The next step would be to raise the upper mounts as much as possible. A combination of reworking the existing upper spring perches/top hats, top mounts, camber plates, and strut towers may all be required. Sometimes even as little as 15-20mm can make enough difference to avoid bottoming out in all but the worst conditions.

I had a friend that wanted the lowest possible ride height for one of his Mk1 VW's. So he removed the springs and rode directly on the bump stops. Not only was the ride horrible, but it was dangerous the way it jumped all over the place. But he loved the look. Funny to drive behind him and watch it pogo everywhere.

 

[Rob1400T]

Good advice, you have probably saved me £1500 after shipping! I'm not after anything ultra low, just this look and I'll be content.

 

[DanielForest]

Will aforementioned Konis fit inside old school Koni Reds with stock springs?

I agree with DrJeff. Konis 8610 and 8611 required a larger diameter housing than the stock x19 struts or other regular replacement (KYB, Koni, etc). I know, I use some! My housing are Carrera units for the Saturn SC that I modified with x19 ears.

 

[Agnelli]

I agree with DrJeff. Konis 8610 and 8611 required a larger diameter housing than the stock x19 struts or other regular replacement (KYB, Koni, etc). I know, I use some! My housing are Carrera units for the Saturn SC that I modified with x19 ears.

Fantastic response thank you

 

[DanielForest]

Dr. Jeff, agreed. The AVOs are rebuildable here in the UK and are generally regarded as a half decent brand.
I'd be interested in hearing from someone who has fitted camber plates in the way shown in the picture.

Hi @Rob1400T,
I'm using Carrera camber plates. They required me to cut the bump over the top of the struts since my car is a 1980 (1973-78 have just a lip). I.m happy with them. On the pic, there isn't any struts on them because I'm in the process of rebuilding some parts of the car including the struts.

The size of the bottom part (the "dish") and the number of bolts make me feel safe with them. Otherwise, the camber plates that goes under the apron like yours are much safer.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

With top mounted camber plates (above the top of the strut tower) you could even make the support plates rise up as much as there is hood (bonnet) clearance to allow. What I mean is something like this...
Make a step to lift the camber plate (red arrows) above the support plate (green arrows):

This will raise the top of the strut/coilover higher up, effectively dropping the body lower over it. The support plate will need a center hole large enough to allow the top of the coilover to clear it. There are various ways to make the step up on the support plate. In the VW world they cut a section of round tube and weld it to the support plate. The diameter of the round tube is big enough to fit over the coilover. Then another piece of flat plate is welded on top of the round tube to mount the camber plate onto. The round tube might roughly be something like this (in red):

Easier to fabricate something along these lines than modify the actual strut tower or the coilover itself.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

Another possibility is to do the above approach with the camber plates that you already have. Make a "box" section (in red) to raise the support plate up and weld it onto the top of the strut tower:

The height of your boxed section will depend on how much bonnet clearance there is, but the higher you can lift the camber plates the more you will be able to lower the ride height without losing suspension travel (i.e. less bottoming out).