cylinder sleeves or 3rd re-bore?

V

Vido Peran

True Classic
My '74 X1/9 is burning oil and the engine is "chiffing", and it's due for its 3rd engine rebuild. My mechanic hasn't mic'd the cylinders, but he says that the thing to do is to insert cylinder sleeves if I'm afraid of there not being enough thickness left on the cylinder walls for re-boring.

One concern that I have with sleeves is their effect on cooling. It seems to me that introducing an extra metal-to-metal interface between the interior of the cylinder and the surrounding coolant would reduce the heat flow into the coolant, leaving a higher-than-design temperature for the piston rings to deal with.

Has anyone here had a rebuild done on the 1200cc engine using cylinder sleeves or inserts? Did you experience, or have you heard of, any problems due to them? Do you have any cautions to share? If you went ahead and did a 3rd re-bore on the old block, what was your experience with that?

Vido P.
 
No experience with a 3rd boring...

But I know how expensive sleeving can be. If you are not concerned with "numbers matching", then sourcing another block is going to be the cheaper way.

Pete
 
Any competent automotive machine shop will evaluate the cylinder bores and will tell you if the required machine work will exceed the max diameter spec of the cylinders.

If indeed that is the case, sleeves or a different block will be required. As Pete stated, it would probably be cheaper to get a used replacement block, but the price is not going to be hugely different.

if the block's cylinders are too far gone to be bored and honed to (presumably) the maximum available oversize, then the machine shop would bore the block to accept a sleeve and then bore and hone the sleeve to either standard size or the oversize that matches your existing pistons assuming they are still serviceable.

Boring and honing to the next available oversize will require purchase of a new set of pistons and rings.

In either case you are buying something, either sleeves and rings (assuming pistons are good) or pistons and rings of the next oversize. Sleeving requires additional passes for boring, figure that adds 25%-35% to the machine shop labor bill.

The cylinder sleeve is a press fit into a freshly cut cylinder bore so there is no concern about lessened heat transfer, especially since both the sleeve and the block are pretty much the same material.
 
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You can find pistons all the way up to 87.4 mm (which are 1mm O/size for a 1301 or 1495 with 86.4mm bore standard) if you look hard enough... 87.2 is usually the ID of the gasket fire ring...so if you overbore to 87.4 you need to source a gasket with a large enough ID on the fire ring.

Sleeving is an expensive way to go... the cost of the sleeves, boring the block to the sleeves OD, pressing the sleeves in, then boring the ID of the sleeve to suit your pistons and decking the gasket face of the block to make it totally flat... it would be far far cheaper to find another 1300 block.

SteveC
 
Thanks, guys!

I'll have to have a more detailed conversation with my mechanic about the extra labor that sleeving might involve. He, too, recommended searching for a new block that had a fewer re-bores done on it, and he thought the quote that he got for sleeve installation to be high, but ....

1) I don't have the time to search for and properly inspect another block,
2) I can afford the cost of re-sleeving, and
3) my concerns about reduced heat transfer appear to be unfounded.

After 42 years of ownership, I'm emotionally attached to all my car's parts. The only major components that I have switched is the ignition (went first with MegaSpark, then with CraneCams but still useing the MegaSpark slotted disc) and the starter (went with a geared starter sold by Mark Allison). So replacing the block would feel to me like replacing the heart of the car. I'd rather refurbish it than replace it, if possible.

Vido P.
 
Vido Peran said:
I'll have to have a more detailed conversation with my mechanic about the extra labor that sleeving might involve. He, too, recommended searching for a new block that had a fewer re-bores done on it, and he thought the quote that he got for sleeve installation to be high, but ....

1) I don't have the time to search for and properly inspect another block,
2) I can afford the cost of re-sleeving, and
3) my concerns about reduced heat transfer appear to be unfounded.

After 42 years of ownership, I'm emotionally attached to all my car's parts. The only major components that I have switched is the ignition (went first with MegaSpark, then with CraneCams but still useing the MegaSpark slotted disc) and the starter (went with a geared starter sold by Mark Allison). So replacing the block would feel to me like replacing the heart of the car. I'd rather refurbish it than replace it, if possible.

Vido P.
Click to expand...

I had a couple of 1500's bored the next size up but never had an engine with a maximum bore but always heard that heat transfer was effected. I did have a Renault that had wet sleeves and went from an 1100 cc to 1300 cc. If you have an attachment to your car parts you could polish up the old block and make a glass top coffee table out of it.:)
 
"wet sleeves"?

dragonsgate said:
I... never had an engine with a maximum bore but always heard that heat transfer was effected. I did have a Renault that had wet sleeves and went from an 1100 cc to 1300 cc.
Click to expand...

That heat transfer would be affected to some degree makes sense from crystallography and the mechanism of heat conduction. But to what extent I cannot guess. But what are "wet sleeves"? Are they substitute cylinder walls that are bathed in coolant? How did they work out in your Renault?

Vido P.
 
My Renault R8 1108cc and my R9 <Alliance> 1398cc both have removable wet sleeves. They are surrounded on the sides by coolant. The overhaul is a little simpler.
With the cast iron blocks like Fiat X 1/9, when the cylinder walls are worn, you bore it out and install oversize pistons to fit.
On the Renaults with removable wet sleeves, you buy a piston/liner set and assemble it. No machine shop necessary. This is kind of an elegant second world solution.
Once upon a time my Cosworth Formula Atlantic (cast iron Ford Cortina 1600cc block) cylinders were too worn to rebore <it was already at the maximum bore allowable in the racing rules>. My pro engine builder resleeved the block and went back with standard size pistons. It worked just fine and there were no heating problems.
 
Vido, I was half joking about the coffee table. I can understand the desire to keep the original block and think if you don't then it will constantly bug you and could even sour your enthusiasm. Just make sure you get a good shop that knows what they are doing. As for the wet sleeves I always thought it was a slick design. To go from an 1100 to 1300 there was some machining needed to get the sleeves to fit.
 
Sleeving the original block is pretty much an non issue regarding thermal transfer. This is done thousand of times each day in the motor rebuilding industry world wide.

Thermal loading in the stock tune engine is low, not enough to be overly concerned with thermal transfer loss due to cylinder sleeving. If the motor is over heating, there is a serious problem with the cooling system which MUST be properly addressed before proceeding forward with correcting the damaged motor.

The real question here is why has this bottom end been rebuilt so many times? The 74' exxe that appeared under my current ownership has the original bottom end as delivered and uses no oil, does not smoke at the exhaust and been problem free except for the stripped out oil drain plug were some brut over torqued it some where in it's life time.

These Lampredi designed bottom ends are incredibly tough, durable, reliable if properly cared for and treated properly. This has been well proven over our LeMons endurance racing and many other motor sports events world wide. There are millions of these Lampredi motors produce with many still in service to this day.

There are some performance production motors that are designed and produced with sleeved like the one used in the current Alfa Romeo 4C.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQSp-QpsS1E

Sleeves have also been the fix for "hard surface" aluminum block that have failed due to fuel composition or other stress related problems.

Porsche:
http://rennlist.com/forums/944-turbo-and-turbo-s-forum/913240-3-0lt-16valve-turbo-pistons-2.html

Jaguar gave up on Nikasil, went back to steel-cast iron pressed in cylinder liners.
http://jagrepair.com/NikasilEngineBlocks.htm

Some techno info:
http://lnengineering.com/resources/2014/02/28/the-secrets-behind-nickies/

Darton Sleeves:
http://www.darton-international.com

Key to the success and outcome of sleeving the cylinders or any related motor machine work is individual directly involved with doing the work required, not just the machine tools and materials involved.


Bernice
 
Rupunzell said:
The real question here is why has this bottom end been rebuilt so many times?
Bernice
Click to expand...

My '74 X1/9 has been my daily ride since I bought it in 1974. That's more than 40 years worth of driving. It hasn't been a garage queen all that time.

I intend, now, to have the cylinders sleeved. I'll just have to check the reputation of the shop that my mechanic would take the block to. I would imagine that besides "decking" the block, there would be some shimming to align the crank shaft and con rods with the bores. Is there anything critical and non-obvious that I should inquire about?

Vido P.
 
Resleeving and subsequent decking would be straight forward for a competent machine shop. There is no shimming of crank etc., their alignment is unaltered in the process, it is only the liner that is a variable.

Curious how many miles you have typically driven on each rebuild.
It may well be that your fuel/ign systems need overhauling to make sure you are not washing the bores with excess fuel, etc., due to the age/wear/inefficiency of the old systems.
 
Videos of Sleeving Process

Just so happens I visited my machine shop buddy this past week while he was putting a sleeve into IIRC a "bow-tie" block, which is a genuine GM cast iron engine block supplied thru their line of performance products.

This is a 502 that will be bored oversized and stroked to 565 cubic inches, up from the stock 502 cubic inches. Because this block uses standard bore spacing, a punch-out to this degree will also require that the block water jacket be filled with cement.

Note that the cylinders have previously been machined to accept O-rings (which are metal not rubber of course) to aid in head-to-block sealing.

Here are three videos I took.
First is the third and final boring pass in the cylinder to open up the hole large enough to receive the sleeve.
Second is the installation of the sleeve in the block. The goop in the hole is loc-tite.
Third is the process of cutting off the excess sleeve length down to just a hair above the block deck.

https://youtu.be/vk3Cj9K0IeU
https://youtu.be/RqHt-rL3vYc
https://youtu.be/sWWosb9cIj0

Here's the sleeve with the machinist's notes on it:


Here's the machinist setting the cutting tool:


Here's the pile of chips cut from the block:
 
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I asked him the same question as I always read where the sleeve is "pressed in." One naturally assumes the block is positioned in a hydraulic shop press and the sleeve is steadily pressed into the block.

He explained that for automotive installations, when sizing cylinders to receive sleeves, the machinist has to take into account what the cylinder wall construction and thickness will be after the hole is enlarged to accept the sleeve. On a block like the one pictured, because the bores are as big as they are on standard bore spacing, after the hole is bored to accept the sleeve the cylinder wall is getting somewhat thin. If the fit is too tight, the sleeve could end up causing the original cylinder wall to crack from the outward pressure of forcing the sleeve into the thinned out cylinder.

So rather than a press fit requiring several tons of steady pressure, in this case the fit is adjusted so that blows with a sledge hammer are enough to get the job done.
 
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