Did '83 Bertone X1/9's have better "rustproofing"
- Thread starter Wayne
- Start date
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
There never was any "ownership" change, the bodies were built by Bertone from day one. There was abandonment by Fiat, no change of ownership. The Bertone built bodies were sent to Fiat for assembly, testing, shipping-distribution. About the time Fiat abandoned the USA car market in the early 80's Bertone tried to market the exxe on their own mid-80's with MBK.
As for the rust question, exxe are no more rust prone than any other cars from that era. What moto folks forget, rust and corrosion protection was not given much consideration and the technologies related to rust and corrosion protection were no where near as developed decades later. That said, later production exxe bodies got the same rust-corrosion protection as any other high quality stamped sheet metal car body from that era. Bertone built low volume specials for a long list of car brands. The specific car brand would issue rust-corrosion specifications and requirements to Bertone that was obligated to meet this and assure conformance of specifications for production. Given Bertone had this rust-corrosion process in house in their later years, they simply applied it to exxe body production as the exxe was their product.. as it was since day one, even if Fiat was deeply involved. Fiat also assured the exxe would NEVER be developed into what it could have been as Fiat management never wanted this Bertone design to begin with.
The topic of rust and all that as been discussed LOTs on Xweb over the years.. zero has changed. If curious, do that search.
Bernice
As for the rust question, exxe are no more rust prone than any other cars from that era. What moto folks forget, rust and corrosion protection was not given much consideration and the technologies related to rust and corrosion protection were no where near as developed decades later. That said, later production exxe bodies got the same rust-corrosion protection as any other high quality stamped sheet metal car body from that era. Bertone built low volume specials for a long list of car brands. The specific car brand would issue rust-corrosion specifications and requirements to Bertone that was obligated to meet this and assure conformance of specifications for production. Given Bertone had this rust-corrosion process in house in their later years, they simply applied it to exxe body production as the exxe was their product.. as it was since day one, even if Fiat was deeply involved. Fiat also assured the exxe would NEVER be developed into what it could have been as Fiat management never wanted this Bertone design to begin with.
The topic of rust and all that as been discussed LOTs on Xweb over the years.. zero has changed. If curious, do that search.
Bernice
myronx19
True Classic
Indeed - paint, glass installation, electrical, lighting, trim etc - was done at Bertone from day one - except the drivetrain and suspension.
And later of course, Bertone took over full production including powertrain installation and all the fun stuff associated with that (bleeding clutch systems and filling coolant!) (The LaStoria book has some interesting production line photos)
Generally @Wayne, you'll find that there were changes to the 1983 cars that had improvements. There are documents here on xweb that were shared, stating what those running changes were (including rust-proofing if I'm not mistaken). I don't know if the '72-82 cars had the best e-coat process before paint, but at least anecdotally -my understanding is that the process got better on the later cars. Were they better? I dunno.. (like for example, the Ferrari 308 prior to 1983 bodies tend to rust quite badly... 1984-up, the 308 got much better because of process improvements)
If you're in the market for a car - I wouldn't be too concerned on what year, but the condition it's in. There are plenty of early cars that were well taken care of and have little/no rust. I've seen some late ones that were quite rotted as well - just due to people driving them daily in the salt belt through rough winters.
I'll search and see if I can find that thread.
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
@Wayne, if you're looking for an exxe, ignore the mileage thing and focus on overall condition of the exxe. Between the choice of a 500,000 mile exxe that has been extremely well cared for -vs- an exxe with 500 miles that has been neglected, the 500,000 mile exxe that has been driven lots and well cared for is by FAR the better choice.
Take the time to read the side bar about the history of the exxe in this Hemmings article:
It is Condition, Condition, Condition.... that is most important. Do keep in mind and know any exxe is decades old and ALL will need stuff, no different than any moto that is decades old.
Oh, one big consideration for rust-corrosion on the exxe, what is rusty on the outside might be good on the inside. There are locations on the exterior that easily visible and prone to rust but have zero effect on the structural integrity of the chassis.
Bernice
Take the time to read the side bar about the history of the exxe in this Hemmings article:
It is Condition, Condition, Condition.... that is most important. Do keep in mind and know any exxe is decades old and ALL will need stuff, no different than any moto that is decades old.
Oh, one big consideration for rust-corrosion on the exxe, what is rusty on the outside might be good on the inside. There are locations on the exterior that easily visible and prone to rust but have zero effect on the structural integrity of the chassis.
Bernice
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
I'm with Myron, the year isn't as important as the actual condition.
For some reason my '79 seems to have an excellent layer of e-coat, while both of my '85's do not. I'm speaking from what I see when I strip the finish on them. And when I go to weld modifications onto the body, the e-coat on the '79 is very difficult to completely remove (to avoid contaminating the welds) compared the the '85s. And respectively, my '79 has very little rust while the '85s have a LOT. However the differences in rust in these cases is likely more to do with the car's histories than how they were built. But the difference I can see in the actual e-coating when sanding back the layers and prepping for welding seems counterintuitive to what I'd expect.
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
Before damming Bertone's exxe for "poor to no" rust-corrosion protection and being a rust bucket...
Have a look at these popular trucks with FAR more serous rust problems... than possible mis-applied seam sealer..
www.hotcars.com
Market Iconic Porsche 911 series from that same era has FAR more serious rust-corrosion problems than the exxe, difference being
Porsche's have cultivated a FAR greater following by motorsports and marketing resulting in FAR more market value and perceived desirability than the exxe..
bringatrailer.com
Rusty Porsche's will be "restored" often regardless of their condition due to market value and ....
Do a search on rusty Japanese & Euro & Detroit cars from that era.. to discover how common the rust-corrosion problem was bak then.
Bernice
Have a look at these popular trucks with FAR more serous rust problems... than possible mis-applied seam sealer..
10 Pickups That Are Notorious Rust Buckets (And 10 That Never Rust)
Pickup trucks will inevitably get some rust, but some seem destined to crumble from the very beginning.
www.hotcars.com
Market Iconic Porsche 911 series from that same era has FAR more serious rust-corrosion problems than the exxe, difference being
Porsche's have cultivated a FAR greater following by motorsports and marketing resulting in FAR more market value and perceived desirability than the exxe..
See Where They Rust: 1972 Porsche 911T
Learn more about See Where They Rust: 1972 Porsche 911T on Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online.
bringatrailer.com
Rusty Porsche's will be "restored" often regardless of their condition due to market value and ....
Do a search on rusty Japanese & Euro & Detroit cars from that era.. to discover how common the rust-corrosion problem was bak then.
Bernice
Last edited:
A lot of cars years ago had rust issues, Italian cars have some interesting history.
Another thing I discovered, after removing the front hood, the hood under the hinges, bare metal / rust. Also the textured coating on the rocker panels, seems to be similar to seam sealer material, and it is applied over bare metal, and there will be some rust under that material.
Another thing I discovered, after removing the front hood, the hood under the hinges, bare metal / rust. Also the textured coating on the rocker panels, seems to be similar to seam sealer material, and it is applied over bare metal, and there will be some rust under that material.
patchelect
Daily Driver
And don't forget that Fiat used Russian steel for their supplier. The source can also effect the outcome. My '80 Brava bought new started rusting along the piece above the rear bumper below the trunk lid within the first year or two. Thankfully Fiat had already put a rust through warranty in place and my dealer fixed it. My '74 X was bought used in '78 but I sold it before the beginning of '80 so I couldn't say anything about that car. My '72 Spider, also bought new, lost its rockers but were thankfully easily replaced, probably at year 5 or ownership. And any other Fiats I owned we all used to varying degrees and rust was never a concern due to their condition. I seem to recall a 128SL, perhaps it was a 74, that was quite dented, but not rusted. Of course I'm also taxing memories that are over 40 years old~~~
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
Source of steel is irrelevant, this is another rusty Fiat myth that must go away.
ALL steel comes from iron ore, makes ZERO difference where iron ore comes from. Low carbon soft steel required for stamped metal parts will rust unless some protective coating is applied.
That inferior "Russian" steel used in Fiats is a product of Cold War propaganda to imply what is made in Russia is inferior to anything made in the "west". This is simply NOT true or correct.
BTW, Bertone built ALL exxe bodies from the beginning. Where did Bertone source their sheet metal from?
Bernice
ALL steel comes from iron ore, makes ZERO difference where iron ore comes from. Low carbon soft steel required for stamped metal parts will rust unless some protective coating is applied.
That inferior "Russian" steel used in Fiats is a product of Cold War propaganda to imply what is made in Russia is inferior to anything made in the "west". This is simply NOT true or correct.
BTW, Bertone built ALL exxe bodies from the beginning. Where did Bertone source their sheet metal from?
Bernice
NEG
True Classic
Bit like the stories about the Alfa Romeo alfasud and ‘Russian steel’....the truth was the steel came from the foundry in Taranto in Italy not Russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilva_(company)
The rust issue where down to poor working practices at the factory and an unskilled workforce that went on strike every other week
The rust issue where down to poor working practices at the factory and an unskilled workforce that went on strike every other week
When IAI took over marketing over of the X19 in late 82, there is doucment with all the changes made and key to them was additional holes in the framework and different points that allowed more ecoat to get into the frame for additional protection
Then i believe in response to Volvo requiring a more modern paint process a more comprehensive ecoat dip in mid 80's was introduced and was mentioned in some of the later model brouchures
In reality it all matters less and more about as mentioned in the thread how car was kept\ used and stored outside or subject to snow\ mud conditions is more the determining factor of rust
Then i believe in response to Volvo requiring a more modern paint process a more comprehensive ecoat dip in mid 80's was introduced and was mentioned in some of the later model brouchures
In reality it all matters less and more about as mentioned in the thread how car was kept\ used and stored outside or subject to snow\ mud conditions is more the determining factor of rust
Porsche had a special method of rust for the 911 and the 914. The heat was provided by hot air, since there was no water, air was blown over the hot exhaust, then thru a pipe inside what was basically a frame box, inner rocker assembly. Each time the heat was used and the car cooled off, water / condensation would build up in that frame box section, eventually the bottom of that box would almost fall off.
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
Met a Porsche 914 restoration specialist decades ago who told of countless 914's he worked on with no visible exterior rust but absolute rust disaster internally. His test for this was saggy doors and creaks going over bumps. What happens, the inner areas you mentioned rust horridly causing structural damage.
The idea of applying hot air near internal areas is absurd as moisture content of air depends on air temperature.. what moisture in the hot air once cooled drops all it's moisture into the darnedest places.
Another failed German idea...intended or not.. Issues with air cooled petro motors with the need for a cabin heater.
IMO, both these Porsche designs are technically poor with a long list of ways.
Bernice
The idea of applying hot air near internal areas is absurd as moisture content of air depends on air temperature.. what moisture in the hot air once cooled drops all it's moisture into the darnedest places.
Another failed German idea...intended or not.. Issues with air cooled petro motors with the need for a cabin heater.
IMO, both these Porsche designs are technically poor with a long list of ways.
Bernice
Last edited: