Engine running but not well.
- Thread starter Zona
- Start date
Not sure about the noise
but that wire with the plug is an "extra" wire that hooks to nothing.... apparently by design. It exists on all factory FI harnesses.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/12159/message/969801008/Bosch+FI+Wiring+harness
Also, don't look at the tach for an accurate RPM reading. They are notoriously inaccurate. You can have the RPMs checked and set when you get the timing done. Also make a mental note of how far off your dash tach is for future reference.
but that wire with the plug is an "extra" wire that hooks to nothing.... apparently by design. It exists on all factory FI harnesses.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/12159/message/969801008/Bosch+FI+Wiring+harness
Also, don't look at the tach for an accurate RPM reading. They are notoriously inaccurate. You can have the RPMs checked and set when you get the timing done. Also make a mental note of how far off your dash tach is for future reference.
That is indeed a head bolt
That is indeed a head bolt.
Does that ticking noise vary with engine RPM?
That is indeed a head bolt.
Does that ticking noise vary with engine RPM?
Dan Sarandrea (Phila)
Waitin' On Parts...
The smoke would be consistent with an oil leak from the X[head]X cam box or cam cover gasket that's seeping its way down onto the hot exhaust manifold.
If tugging on the FI harness causes an engine stumble, then that's a classic indicator of bad wiring/connections/grounds.
I have heard a few rod knocks on other engines, but I have never heard one on an X's engine. But from the available info and sound, it sure sounds like a rod knock to me. That's not a good thing.
Any other symptoms of a low/no oil event?
If tugging on the FI harness causes an engine stumble, then that's a classic indicator of bad wiring/connections/grounds.
I have heard a few rod knocks on other engines, but I have never heard one on an X's engine. But from the available info and sound, it sure sounds like a rod knock to me. That's not a good thing.
Any other symptoms of a low/no oil event?
Last edited:
autox19
True Classic
checking knock/noise
to get you closer to where the noise is, simply use a metal pipe. place it against the engine and listen into the pipe. by moving it around you can pin point where it is coming from. if it is louder when you have it presses against the head, it is most likely related to the cam. if it is louder when you put it on the block (especially lower on the block) it isnt good news.
If it seems to be coming from the block, stop running it immediately! pull the oil pan and check your bearings! I once bought a VW that had a small tick and I found it was a rod bearing. After taking it out, I found I caught it quick enough only new bearings were needed.
Odie
to get you closer to where the noise is, simply use a metal pipe. place it against the engine and listen into the pipe. by moving it around you can pin point where it is coming from. if it is louder when you have it presses against the head, it is most likely related to the cam. if it is louder when you put it on the block (especially lower on the block) it isnt good news.
If it seems to be coming from the block, stop running it immediately! pull the oil pan and check your bearings! I once bought a VW that had a small tick and I found it was a rod bearing. After taking it out, I found I caught it quick enough only new bearings were needed.
Odie
Black-Tooth
Tony Natoli
Jase... as Odie below stated...
Use a pipe or a long screwdriver and place one end against your JAW right next to your EAR opening. A $5.00 stethoscope from Harbor Freight is the better tool.
I think you are gonna find its probably a valve shim... whereas you need to "adjust" the valves by determining the proper gap and replacing the existing shim with another.
I do NOT think this is a rod knocking. If it doesn't get any LOUDER with engine RPM, just faster, its probably the valve shim(s). If it does get much louder and SOLID-SOUNDING, it could be a rod.
As Jim said also, your idle does not appear to be that excessive either, regardless of the tach.
Do try the stethoscope thing and another video with you reving it a bit also... let us know...
Use a pipe or a long screwdriver and place one end against your JAW right next to your EAR opening. A $5.00 stethoscope from Harbor Freight is the better tool.
I think you are gonna find its probably a valve shim... whereas you need to "adjust" the valves by determining the proper gap and replacing the existing shim with another.
I do NOT think this is a rod knocking. If it doesn't get any LOUDER with engine RPM, just faster, its probably the valve shim(s). If it does get much louder and SOLID-SOUNDING, it could be a rod.
As Jim said also, your idle does not appear to be that excessive either, regardless of the tach.
Do try the stethoscope thing and another video with you reving it a bit also... let us know...
Zona
Jase
It does not get louder with speed, just faster, I'll try and get a video tonight revving it a bit, also there is a hole in my muffler but I don't think there are any in my manifold. I guess I should start looking for a decent mechanic in the area....
Edit: After watching some videos of rod knock on youtube I don't think that is my problem (I hope it isn't anyways).
Edit: After watching some videos of rod knock on youtube I don't think that is my problem (I hope it isn't anyways).
Next step
Now that you know that the noise follows the engine revs, you know everything pretty much everything that listening is going to tell you. It's a good sign that it's not getting louder with revs, tends to suggest it's valve train not bottom end.
Next step is to take the valve cover off, see what's happening there. Rotate the motor by hand, and check all the valve clearances. This may still be something you can fix yourself (probably is).
Now that you know that the noise follows the engine revs, you know everything pretty much everything that listening is going to tell you. It's a good sign that it's not getting louder with revs, tends to suggest it's valve train not bottom end.
Next step is to take the valve cover off, see what's happening there. Rotate the motor by hand, and check all the valve clearances. This may still be something you can fix yourself (probably is).
Why pay others for something you can do for yourself for free?
That's why xweb is here. You have instant access to a vast amount of obscure information and expertise... Keep coming back as your project progresses and the boards can talk you through.
Pete Whitstone
True Classic
I agree with Tony, I think it is a valve shim
with too much clearance. Pop the valve cover off and check the clearances. Fairly simple job, even for the mechanically disinclined.
As far as the oil leak around that head bolt, I believe it's coming from just above/behind that head bolt, in the area where the cam box sits on the head. There is a paper gasket between the cam box and the head and they are notorious for disintegrating and leaking. You'll have to pull the cam box to fix it. But that's OK because you will also want to replace the timing belt, which must also come off for this job. Replace the tensioner bearing while you are in there.
I can't help but notice the tremendous excess of RTV (gasket goo) between the head and the thermostat housing. I'd pull that, scrape it all off, and re-assemble with a new gasket and the proper amount of RTV (very little, just a thin smear coat). Excessive RTV is just about the #1 rookie mistake in engine building. The problem is, all that goo you see on the outside has a counterpart on the inside, in the water jacket, and eventually chunks will start breaking down and circulating with the coolant. At least, until they find a suitable passage to clog.
Pete
with too much clearance. Pop the valve cover off and check the clearances. Fairly simple job, even for the mechanically disinclined.
As far as the oil leak around that head bolt, I believe it's coming from just above/behind that head bolt, in the area where the cam box sits on the head. There is a paper gasket between the cam box and the head and they are notorious for disintegrating and leaking. You'll have to pull the cam box to fix it. But that's OK because you will also want to replace the timing belt, which must also come off for this job. Replace the tensioner bearing while you are in there.
I can't help but notice the tremendous excess of RTV (gasket goo) between the head and the thermostat housing. I'd pull that, scrape it all off, and re-assemble with a new gasket and the proper amount of RTV (very little, just a thin smear coat). Excessive RTV is just about the #1 rookie mistake in engine building. The problem is, all that goo you see on the outside has a counterpart on the inside, in the water jacket, and eventually chunks will start breaking down and circulating with the coolant. At least, until they find a suitable passage to clog.
Pete
bikesandcars
True Classic
idle is a non-issue
that ticking sounded more like rod-knock to me, but who knows what kind of acoustic tricks the phone is playing. I agree it is far more likely to be a valve-clearance issue, but it's very strange to have a singularly loud valve that out of clearance (sounds very loose). Maybe a sticking valve?
Oil leaking from that particular stud is strange, its on the opposite side of the oil pressure feed. Are you sure its not coming from the cam cover immediately above it? I'd squirt it with some brake cleaner and see if you can figure it out better.
Adjusting timing is very easy, just need a timing light and the resources here.
Another for a valve or shim..
I'm not sure how to describe why, but it sounds valve-train related to me as well.
And as recommended I too would use a sound stick or mechanic's stethoscope to narrow down the location. I'd also remove the cam cover and check for a bad or dislodged shim, or a sticking valve.
A compression test would probably help the diagnosis. I would expect poor oil pressure if it was "rod knock" or a bad rod bearing.
I'm not sure how to describe why, but it sounds valve-train related to me as well.
And as recommended I too would use a sound stick or mechanic's stethoscope to narrow down the location. I'd also remove the cam cover and check for a bad or dislodged shim, or a sticking valve.
A compression test would probably help the diagnosis. I would expect poor oil pressure if it was "rod knock" or a bad rod bearing.
autox19
True Classic
harbor frieght
are you saying use the right tool for the right job? LOL you are absolutely right! if you buy one, you WILL find many uses for it. I had a short in my fuse box I couldnt find (even with a temp sensor) but could hear it crackle, I used the scope to pin point the sound.
I forget to go to the "right" method, and always go to the cheap/have it already method.
Odie
are you saying use the right tool for the right job? LOL you are absolutely right! if you buy one, you WILL find many uses for it. I had a short in my fuse box I couldnt find (even with a temp sensor) but could hear it crackle, I used the scope to pin point the sound.
I forget to go to the "right" method, and always go to the cheap/have it already method.
Odie
Zona
Jase
My main problem with most of the jobs you are telling me to do is that I'm lacking the tools, knowhow, and confidence to do them. Especially the timing belt since that is super critical and I've never even attempted to change one. I'm sure all of that would be good to have done but I'm simply too terrified of making things worse than they are to try myself... not that it isn't tempting since I'm always trying to expand my skill set... hell since I'm definitely not going to make Autocross next week I might just try and tow it to a mechanic if I fail... this car is turning into way more of a project than I was hoping it would be when I bought it.
sdlsaginaw
Steven Lawson
Most of the jobs
are not THAT hard, especially with the support of this group. Even the FI engines are not that complicated compared to a modern car.
Post what you're planning on doing, print out the responses, go slow. Have some zip-lock bags for bolts and things too, putting each sections bits into it's own bag and marking it. Things go much easier that way when you start putting stuff back together.
TOOLS - one word, Harbor Frieght. Ok, two words. I see there's one right by you. Inexpensive tools for the shadetree mechanic. Get metric wrenches and sockets, torque wrench, feeler guage set, and various screwdrivers.
KNOWHOW - this forum has all the information and diagnostics expertise you could hope for. One would expect there's a member around you that could help as well.
CONFIDENCE - that will come with tackling the jobs. Once again, a forum member around you willing to help would also go a long way.
are not THAT hard, especially with the support of this group. Even the FI engines are not that complicated compared to a modern car.
Post what you're planning on doing, print out the responses, go slow. Have some zip-lock bags for bolts and things too, putting each sections bits into it's own bag and marking it. Things go much easier that way when you start putting stuff back together.
TOOLS - one word, Harbor Frieght. Ok, two words. I see there's one right by you. Inexpensive tools for the shadetree mechanic. Get metric wrenches and sockets, torque wrench, feeler guage set, and various screwdrivers.
KNOWHOW - this forum has all the information and diagnostics expertise you could hope for. One would expect there's a member around you that could help as well.
CONFIDENCE - that will come with tackling the jobs. Once again, a forum member around you willing to help would also go a long way.
Pete Whitstone
True Classic
I understand you may not have the tools and experience...
that you would like to have. But to check the valve clearance requires a feeler gauge and a 10mm socket or wrench, and that's about it. Lots of people on this forum could walk you through it, or even better, find someone in your area willing to come over and walk you through it. Like someone else posted, there's only one way to get the confidence to tackle the larger jobs, and that's to build it by doing smaller jobs.
Checking the valve clearance is a small and fairly easy job. The basic steps are this:
1. Mark and remove any hoses or wires that will be in the way of removing the valve cover (the plate with the oil cap on it held down by 10mm bolts at it's perimiter). As I recall you have to disconnect the throttle linkage and maybe some vacuum hoses and some ground wires.
2. Remove the 10mm bolts holding the valve cover down, and remove the valve cover.
3. The camshaft will now be exposed. Below it are these barrel shaped things about 1.5 inches in diameter. On top of the barrels, in between the cam and the barrel, are the valve adjusting shims. They are kind of shaped like silver dollars.
4. Find a valve lobe where the "nose" of the cam is pointing up. This means the valve is closed because it is not being pushed open by the nose. Slide bigger and bigger feeler gauges in one at a time until you can't get one to slide in. Now you know how big the clearance is. Record it, along with the number of the valve (assign them 1 thru 8, doesn't matter which end you assign as 1).
5. Some of the valves will be on the nose of the cam and open, so you have to rotate the engine several times to get the nose off so you can check that valve. This can be done one of several ways. 1) use a large socket and breaker bar to rotate the engine at the crank pulley. Make sure you turn it clockwise. 2) Tap the starter with the coil disconnected so it won't start. This is kind of imprecise and may take a lot of tries. 3) With the car on level ground, put it in 5th and push the car with the e-brake off.
6. When you have measured all the clearances, compare them to the stated specifications (there are "hot" and "cold" measurements, I find it easier to do the "cold" so you don't burn yourself). If any are too tight (doubtful) or too loose, then you will have to remove that shim, measure it, add in the required amount of clearance, and find a new shim that fits. Lots of people around here have collections of the things and will trade.
Now, if you find you need to change some of them, then it gets to be a little bigger of a job, but not much. We'll cross that bridge when you get there.
Pete
that you would like to have. But to check the valve clearance requires a feeler gauge and a 10mm socket or wrench, and that's about it. Lots of people on this forum could walk you through it, or even better, find someone in your area willing to come over and walk you through it. Like someone else posted, there's only one way to get the confidence to tackle the larger jobs, and that's to build it by doing smaller jobs.
Checking the valve clearance is a small and fairly easy job. The basic steps are this:
1. Mark and remove any hoses or wires that will be in the way of removing the valve cover (the plate with the oil cap on it held down by 10mm bolts at it's perimiter). As I recall you have to disconnect the throttle linkage and maybe some vacuum hoses and some ground wires.
2. Remove the 10mm bolts holding the valve cover down, and remove the valve cover.
3. The camshaft will now be exposed. Below it are these barrel shaped things about 1.5 inches in diameter. On top of the barrels, in between the cam and the barrel, are the valve adjusting shims. They are kind of shaped like silver dollars.
4. Find a valve lobe where the "nose" of the cam is pointing up. This means the valve is closed because it is not being pushed open by the nose. Slide bigger and bigger feeler gauges in one at a time until you can't get one to slide in. Now you know how big the clearance is. Record it, along with the number of the valve (assign them 1 thru 8, doesn't matter which end you assign as 1).
5. Some of the valves will be on the nose of the cam and open, so you have to rotate the engine several times to get the nose off so you can check that valve. This can be done one of several ways. 1) use a large socket and breaker bar to rotate the engine at the crank pulley. Make sure you turn it clockwise. 2) Tap the starter with the coil disconnected so it won't start. This is kind of imprecise and may take a lot of tries. 3) With the car on level ground, put it in 5th and push the car with the e-brake off.
6. When you have measured all the clearances, compare them to the stated specifications (there are "hot" and "cold" measurements, I find it easier to do the "cold" so you don't burn yourself). If any are too tight (doubtful) or too loose, then you will have to remove that shim, measure it, add in the required amount of clearance, and find a new shim that fits. Lots of people around here have collections of the things and will trade.
Now, if you find you need to change some of them, then it gets to be a little bigger of a job, but not much. We'll cross that bridge when you get there.
Pete
Black-Tooth
Tony Natoli
Call me...
Preferably between 9 am and 9 pm PST... but what the hell... I'm a batchelor (I don't even remeber how to SPELL that!!!) until next Thursday eve... Call anytime.
661-296-7277
The ONLY other thing I would recommend to Pete's post is to remove the engine ... cover completely... for better access...
Talk to ya soon...
Tony
Preferably between 9 am and 9 pm PST... but what the hell... I'm a batchelor (I don't even remeber how to SPELL that!!!) until next Thursday eve... Call anytime.
661-296-7277
The ONLY other thing I would recommend to Pete's post is to remove the engine ... cover completely... for better access...
Talk to ya soon...
Tony
Lambertta X1/9
Michael L
Excellent Write up Pete!
I Feel better about having to take my cam cover off. While taking off my carb, and trying to change my intake manifold, I found out I had an oil leak from the cam cover. I'm not as scared to do it now.
Thanks,
Michael
I Feel better about having to take my cam cover off. While taking off my carb, and trying to change my intake manifold, I found out I had an oil leak from the cam cover. I'm not as scared to do it now.
Thanks,
Michael