Fiat, oh how fast you will be...

G

GrimnoroftheNorthernLands

Low Mileage
First, Hello to all of you! I am new to owning a fiat x1/9...
I Have had a number of other HOT cars though, just always fantasized about these little things.
I just sold my 1988 Mazda 323 GTX, and now its time for the mid engine Italian stallion!

I have a 1980 X with a bit over 100,000 miles, some rust, and a great running motor.

This is where life gets complicated... I have 3 motors sitting in my garage and one of them is going into this car come hell or high water!

First is a spare Mazda B6T 1.6l turbo motor
Second is a spare K8ZE Mazda 1.8l V-6 (60degree bank)
Third is a Honda B16a

Now I know the Honda motor has been done quite a bit and is both reliable and fast... But I want something more Unique...

So I was thinking about getting that B6t in there as it is already built to run about 240hp at this altitude (~7,000ft) But I have become so tired of always having to !*#$ with the turbo stuff...

So I have started to build the K8ZE to run a solid 170-180hp and take advantage of its High revving nature. With the right pipes, A V-6 this small should scream like a tiny F1 Motor. I think the sound and feel of this motor fits the personality of the fiat like a glove! I cant find anyone who has even considered this swap, so as this proceeds I will Drop TONS of high res pictures and step by step recounting of what needs to be done.

The hard part about this is that I will be unbalancing the car, so I will need to find a way to bring the front rear weight distribution to 50/50.
This car will be my ultimate mountain "race" car...

Anyone with thoughts, comments, advice, or concerns?
Also, anyone in Colorado?
 
YEAH!

That is one of the coolest engines ever made! They first put it in that ugly little car....can't remember the name....MX-6??

Weight shouldn't be thrown off much. The X engine isn't real light.

Making room for exhausts and belt driven add-ons will be the issue. You'll be bumpin' the firewall. But you might have some great inventions to solve those problems.

Offset hubs ala 911 would be neat, but unrealistic. Rotating the engine back, then changing the oil pickup, or converting to a dry sump would be cool!

Document everything! Fresh minds equals fresh ideas.
 
That Mazda K8ZE is a JDM engine.. Don't think it was every sold in the US.. Interesting little 1.8L V6.. to power the X1/9 chassis.

There is more to 50/50 weight "balance" or weight distribution. The X is not 50/50.. it's more like mid 50's rear, mid 40's front. If the alternative engine is tall, then tilt the drive train towards the passenger compartment, this will move the weight towards the CG and should help.

Regardless of the weight increase or reduction, there will be time spent sorting out the chassis and suspension to get it all working properly.

Bernice

GrimnoroftheNorthernLands said:
First, Hello to all of you! I am new to owning a fiat x1/9...
I Have had a number of other HOT cars though, just always fantasized about these little things.

Second is a spare K8ZE Mazda 1.8l V-6 (60degree bank)
Third is a Honda B16a

Now I know the Honda motor has been done quite a bit and is both reliable and fast... But I want something more Unique...

So I was thinking about getting that B6t in there as it is already built to run about 240hp at this altitude (~7,000ft) But I have become so tired of always having to !*#$ with the turbo stuff...

So I have started to build the K8ZE to run a solid 170-180hp and take advantage of its High revving nature. With the right pipes, A V-6 this small should scream like a tiny F1 Motor. I think the sound and feel of this motor fits the personality of the fiat like a glove! I cant find anyone who has even considered this swap, so as this proceeds I will Drop TONS of high res pictures and step by step recounting of what needs to be done.

The hard part about this is that I will be unbalancing the car, so I will need to find a way to bring the front rear weight distribution to 50/50.
This car will be my ultimate mountain "race" car...

Anyone with thoughts, comments, advice, or concerns?
Also, anyone in Colorado?
Click to expand...
 
Apple Motors

The guy I bought this X from either worked at apple motors, or owned it, he wasn't real clear on that!

I want to get a perfect 50/50 weight distribution, it will take some work but will make these epic little cars even more epic! As far as space goes, I don't mind losing part of the trunk!

For belt driven add ons, I wont be keeping the PS pump, or the AC pump, so that should help a bit...
This motor came from a Japanese spec Mazda MX-3
Its only at 135hp stock, but with new cams, a balanced and lightend crank and con rods, milled head, high comp pistons, and a seriously worked valve train.... we will see what I can make from the smallest production V-6 ever.
Can someone remind me why this car never came with a Ferrari Motor?
Oh, so people like me can spend tons of money to build one out of a Mazda motor and drop it in!

And what can I do to improve air flow in the engine bay? It seems like the stock motor cover doesn't let enough air in, and the stock side vents are also small and inadequate...
 
Welcome!

GrimnoroftheNorthernLands said:
And what can I do to improve air flow in the engine bay? It seems like the stock motor cover doesn't let enough air in, and the stock side vents are also small and inadequate...
Click to expand...

Welcome aboard, sounds like an interesting project you are diving into. I'm pretty new here, and to the cars, too, but it's always great to meet another X owner. Regarding air flow in the engine bay: A lot of people remove the rain tray from the engine cover, which I'll be doing shortly as well. Do some searches here and you'll find threads about it, and I believe there's a how to video some where too.

Good luck and have fun!

EDIT: Here's a link for venting the engine cover: http://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/8140/
 
Last edited by a moderator:
If you do the V6 you can always move the firewall forward about 3.5 inches or so. Remove the fuel tank and cut the old firewall out and reweld a new one where the spare tire used to be. This will give you a bunch more room to work. It will also help with the install as you can access everything from the cabin while doing the swap. Then you can weld a new panel in and even create little maintenance windows or doors....:)
 
GrimnoroftheNorthernLands said:
I want to get a perfect 50/50 weight distribution, it will take some work but will make these epic little cars even more epic! As far as space goes, I don't mind losing part of the trunk!
Click to expand...

Rapunzel has the best ideas to implement while still calling it a Fiat.

its basic math, make the engine lighter, move it further forward, or add weight to the front (move the fuel tank up front).

If you are using the x19 just for the shell and you don't care what happens you can push the firewall and use a porsche Boxster power train.

Its unclear how far you want to go. You've given us the engine already, so without moving mounting points there isn't much to do to get perfect 50/50. If you need 50/50 i suggest buying a porsche 944 for your project. The fiat with a 60/40 with the weight between the wheels has it's advantages too.


And what can I do to improve air flow in the engine bay? It seems like the stock motor cover doesn't let enough air in, and the stock side vents are also small and inadequate...
Click to expand...
you can remove the rear valance, rear lights, and license plate and make holes. You can relocate or reduce the light footprint by fitting aftermarket lights

poconodyno006.jpg
 
Use a Porsche

No. There is just something about these cars... Not sure what it is, but I have wanted one since I was about 15 years old. I will do everything I can to get it close to what I want.

I cant move the firewall up, as I am 6'2 and have already moved the seat back, and I still want to keep my rear speakers and subwoofer (already lost the spare tire)

As far as my goals go, I want to be able to drive this car up and down the mountains around my home at the highest speeds I can (legally and safely) allong with the forest service roads I used to rally in my 323 GTX, Fiero, AE86, and RX7 before it.
I want it to sound fierce, rev like a SOB, and handle like its on rails (already shockingly good in the curvy bits)
But I also want to be able to drive it in traffic, coast to coast, up and down and side to side without having lots of problems.
It needs to be somewhat comfortable, and maintain that stylish Italian look that I find so endearing.

I chose this car, over many other cars that would have been far cheaper and easier to build and find a knowledge base for.
There is just something about it, and after poking around this and several other Fiat and X1/9 communities, I know I am not alone...

Also, that is an epic race car! if I had a second one something like that would be more likely...
I have no doubt that thing is a BLAST to drive!! Kinda Jealous....
What motor is that running?
 
Wonkavator

GrimnoroftheNorthernLands said:
But I also want to be able to drive it in traffic, coast to coast, up and down and side to side without having lots of problems.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you need to start your project with a Wonkavator. :)
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9_yMvOdYoo"]YouTube- wonkavator boom[/ame]

I look forward to the pictures of your progress. It is always interesting to follow along as new engine possibilities explored. Good luck!
 
JimD said:
Sounds like you need to start your project with a Wonkavator. :)
YouTube- wonkavator boom

I look forward to the pictures of your progress. It is always interesting to follow along as new engine possibilities explored. Good luck!
Click to expand...

I just fell of my chair at work laughing and may have pee'd my pants a little....thanks!!!!!

Also, that is an epic race car! if I had a second one something like that would be more likely...
I have no doubt that thing is a BLAST to drive!! Kinda Jealous....
What motor is that running?
Click to expand...

Epic is the kindest thing anyone has ever said about that car! thanks. Its got the 1500 / 5-speed running gear with some low priced n/a motor tricks thrown at it. It's strengths are braking and handling, a drag-racer it isn't, but it keeps up with bigger cars.

I was just throwing ideas before, you have a very tough list of qualifications to meet. Forget about the weight distribution, what makes the x19 special, as rapunzell says, is the low polar moment of inertia..... its the sweetest spinning car ever made :)

If you want to drive the car on the street you might want to save the "boot" for luggage and not a fuel cell.

The engine is severely constrained in engine-compartment cooling because of the baggage compartment behind the engine. removing that baggage compartment and opening up the access hole gives a lot more air around the engine. if you don't want to cut the rear out you can always louver the trunk deck lid

I can't think of a way to meet your specs and still keep all the passenger car niceties...you're going to have to sacrifice something!
 
Epic is the kindest thing anyone has ever said about that car! thanks. Its got the 1500 / 5-speed running gear with some low priced n/a motor tricks thrown at it. It's strengths are braking and handling, a drag-racer it isn't, but it keeps up with bigger cars.
Click to expand...

You should have seen my 323 GTX, it gave me a deep love of cars that mix ugly with fun!
DnagerCartoo1.jpg


Seriously, this was before It had the official danger cart emblems on the sides....
Dangercartemlems.jpg


This car is AWD, turbo, 2,100 lbs and perhaps the most fun I have ever had with a car.


I was just throwing ideas before, you have a very tough list of qualifications to meet. Forget about the weight distribution, what makes the x19 special, as rapunzell says, is the low polar moment of inertia..... its the sweetest spinning car ever made
Click to expand...

:sun: Love it! Perhaps then, I worry less... and drop a fuel call in the front....

I can't think of a way to meet your specs and still keep all the passenger car niceties...you're going to have to sacrifice something!
Click to expand...

Money, time, energy, blood, sweat, and the souls hanging out in the elvish graveyard... :grin:
 
Hi Grimnor

Welcome to XWeb. You will find much knowledge here.

You asked for input so here's mine. I suggest you consider using the
B6T instead. I raced a 323GTX for several years and am quite familiar with that engine. Always figured it would be the ultimate engine swap candidate for the X1/9! This engine is quite compact (it was remember made from the 323 1300 block) and although it has a cast iron block it's so small it's really light. As you know, it can make 200+ hp easily and reliably. You are already familiar with it so probably know most of the tricks already. With the V6 you are heading into the unknown. As i'm sure you already know the X1/9 engine compartment is pretty small. I doubt the v6 would fit without major surgery. I'm also sure the B6T would be way lighter than the V6. You did say you were concerned about weight distribution so the last thing you would want would be another 100-150 lbs. in the rear! I'd bet the B6T is no heavier than the stock Fiat engine.

There is no way the V6 would produce anywhere near the power of the B6T. You would have trouble finding parts for it and would probably have to end up getting a stand alone injection system if you modify it much. More expense and aggravation.

I'm sure the V6 would be a sweet revving engine but I'm sure you know the B6T revs pretty good too!

By the way, your 323gtx for sure weighed 2600+ lbs not 2100 as you state - I know, Ive seen several weighed. By the way, I think a stock X1/9 (the later 79+ type) weighs about 2100-2200 pounds (I've never weighed one - has anybody out there actually weighed theirs?) And 240hp is not realistic unless you had a lot of very serious work done to it.

Anyway, good luck with your project. I can certainly see your reasons for wanting to use the V6 (smoothness, sound, response) and please don't let me discourage you from doing so. Just giving you my take on it.

Cheers.
 
B6t

As you know, it can make 200+ hp easily and reliably.
Click to expand...
and later
And 240hp is not realistic unless you had a lot of very serious work done to it.
Click to expand...

Lots of very serious work done to it, and I had another b6t pulling 295hp at the wheels. Realistic is based on time, money, and energy! Also, I do much of the work myself. I have been taking apart and rebuilding things since I was very young.
One thing that both of my last B6t's had in common was that they were both ready (and one was using) E85. Its 110 octane, and at the altitude here is a large problem for powerplants of all kinds. That high octane from the pump is a large part of the power, detonation is far less of a concern so I can boost even harder :D

By the way, your 323gtx for sure weighed 2600+ lbs not 2100 as you state - I know, Ive seen several weighed. By the way, I think a stock X1/9 (the later 79+ type) weighs about 2100-2200 pounds
Click to expand...

No doubt it was below that weight. Zero glass, Zero interior, Zero safety, Zero everything that had weight. Many nights were spent making fiberglass body parts, and many days spent finding lightweight parts for her. I am not being defensive, but I kinda am on this one. There were literally times when I ran this car with no bumpers, no doors, no hood, no hatch, and nothing but me, the controls, and the gauges inside it. This car's name was "Danger Cart" think a bit less car... A lot more go cart! (and way more death trap!)


You asked for input so here's mine. I suggest you consider using the
B6T instead. I raced a 323GTX for several years and am quite familiar with that engine. Always figured it would be the ultimate engine swap candidate for the X1/9! This engine is quite compact (it was remember made from the 323 1300 block) and although it has a cast iron block it's so small it's really light. As you know, it can make 200+ hp easily and reliably. You are already familiar with it so probably know most of the tricks already. With the V6 you are heading into the unknown. As i'm sure you already know the X1/9 engine compartment is pretty small. I doubt the v6 would fit without major surgery. I'm also sure the B6T would be way lighter than the V6. You did say you were concerned about weight distribution so the last thing you would want would be another 100-150 lbs. in the rear! I'd bet the B6T is no heavier than the stock Fiat engine.
Click to expand...

I really am just dead tired of turbo motors. To be honest, I have no doubt the b6t would be a fantastic motor for the X, but I have just had enough. If you would like A very well built B6t motor, drop me a message and ill tell you every single thing that this motor has had done to it :) still kinda makes me miss the mazda...

I will be sailing into new waters, but a motor is a motor. Once you get into it, you can find anything that might be a weak point, and make it better! I am quite confident in this little v6, although you are very right about the weight.
It is heavier, and its by quite a bit, even if you include the entire turbo system on the b6t its still clocking in way below the v6, even though its only a 1.8l v6!!
I am pretty sure the Mazda powerplant is almost the exact same weight as the stock X 1500.
Can anyone tell me what the 1500 would weigh at as a long block?

How much do you know about the 1.8l mazda turbo motor? Does it use the same block? I think I would be far more interested in looking into that, as parts for it are easier to come by. I would also be able to use on in stock form for more than enough power.
Found it, the BP series motors, The BPt:
It produced 179 hp (134 kW) and 174 ft·lbf (237 N·m) of torque.
Click to expand...
- WIKIPEDIA
And the BPD (also turbo)
to produce 209 hp (156 kW) and 184 ft·lbf (255 N·m)
Click to expand...
- also wikipedia
These numbers sound somewhat high, but again I know nothing about them other than that they are readily availible. (bpt, not the bpd)

It is late, I will leave this here before I ramble too badly! I will look into the bpt and find out if it is physically larger or significantly heavier than the b6t and go from there!
 
BP turbo

Hi again Grimnor. The 1.8 BP series engine is totally different from the B6. It is physically larger (I think about 2" longer) and much heavier. I think it's actually about 1840cc. In North America we got this engine in SOHC version in the Protege 90-95, and in DOHC version in the Protege S (really rare), Miata 94-?, and strangely enough in a Ford Escort GT 91-96. We never got a turbo version here but they did in Japan (I think in AWD only) and possibly elsewere. I think there were 2 or 3 different turbo versions with HP ranging from about 170-210.

I really don't know why but there seems to be quite a lot of these engines (with AWD trans) available from the JDM engine suppliers. I have no idea what guys are putting them in. Maybe thats why they are so cheap! With that kind of HP stock (and apparantly more easily) I got to admit they look tempting. I would be a little concerned about spare parts availability on an engine we never got here though!

I could not find any engine weights data but did find out that an MX3 with the V6 weighs about 180 lbs. more than the MX3 with the 4 cyl.(I think a 1.6 B6 DOHC non-turbo?) I guess the extra weight being a combo. of heavier engine, trans., etc.

It seems the 1.8 V6 is a destroked and debored version of the Mazda 2.5 V6. They use the same intake and exhaust manifold and vc gaskets so I've got to assume the heads are pretty much the same. Also share timing belts and oil pumps so the the bottom end must be too? In which case why don't you use the 2.5? From pictures the 1.8 V6 sure looks pretty wide to be stuffed into the narrow X1/9 engine bay.

And hey please don't get defensive about my weight remarks. The pictures you posted showed a stock looking GTX complete with bumpers, mirrors, interior, full glass, etc., and they did weigh about 2650 stock.

And my remarks about HP were meant to say that although 200 HP is relatively easy the jump to 240 is (as you know) much more difficult.

Your profile says you're only 21 and I'm really impressed you like the X1/9. Mention an X1/9 to anyone under 25 usually results in a blank stare - most have never even heard of one! I also like your determination in plunging into the difficult and unknown. Good for you.

Please keep us up to date on your progress.
 
Thanks for the info Black-Tooth!

As far as the bp engines go, people are tearing them apart and making turbo miatas, and upgrading 323 gtx with them.

t seems the 1.8 V6 is a destroked and debored version of the Mazda 2.5 V6. They use the same intake and exhaust manifold and vc gaskets so I've got to assume the heads are pretty much the same. Also share timing belts and oil pumps so the the bottom end must be too? In which case why don't you use the 2.5? From pictures the 1.8 V6 sure looks pretty wide to be stuffed into the narrow X1/9 engine bay.

This is brutally true, after measuring as best i could, I would have to do TONS of cutting on this car and the entire rear end might have to be made wider.

And hey please don't get defensive about my weight remarks. The pictures you posted showed a stock looking GTX complete with bumpers, mirrors, interior, full glass, etc., and they did weigh about 2650 stock.

None taken! Those were the last pictures before the car got striped of its body and glass ect...

And my remarks about HP were meant to say that although 200 HP is relatively easy the jump to 240 is (as you know) much more difficult.

And A ton more expensive! I found that a stock motor was really prone to throwing rods at 200hp, and constant hard driving. :(

Your profile says you're only 21 and I'm really impressed you like the X1/9. Mention an X1/9 to anyone under 25 usually results in a blank stare - most have never even heard of one! I also like your determination in plunging into the difficult and unknown. Good for you.

Most of my friends asked me one of two things...
"Who makes Fiat?"
"Didn't they go out of business?"
I have to tell them so so so many things... (like Fiat owns Ferrari and Maseratti!)

Well, I have been driving the car everyday for a few weeks now and I just cant help but LOVE this car. It just feels so eager and happy, like it just wants to have fun!
But I really need more power... And I really want a low displacement high revving motor....
So after much searching and reaserch... I bought a wrecked GSXR 1300 Hayabusa :)
The motor has 7,000 miles on it and its a 2006.
I have already ordered a quaiffe LSD diff with a reletively large sprocket on it. In 6th gear at redline I will be doing 138mph.
The Diff also has what is basically a starter motor on it with a gear to run the little X in Reverse!!
Stock the engine has ~170hp and ~70 to 80tq Both are higher than the stock X engines.
What I still need...
Larger Radiator
Custom Engine Mounts
Custom Length Chain
Upgraded Clutch
Figure out how to mate the speedo and tach
Figure out the clutch hydrolic system and how to mate
Figure out how to mate the gear shifter to the new one (its a bike so it will just click up and down)
Have a shop make my custom drivelines from my new diff to the hubs
Upgrade Fuel system and make ready for fuel injection
Figure out how to get a large enough alternator onto busa motor
And finally, intake and exhaust have to be custom.

Epic. :)
 
This may be a blinding flash of the obvious, but engine swaps for the X are really powertrain swaps.

The X 5-speed is pretty much acknowledged to reasonably handle the additional power you get by doing mild-to-moderate head/carb/FI/exhaust work on the stock motor, but from what people post here, once you start getting past the 120-130HP mark, or once you start dropping other engines in, you have to automatically think about beefing up the stock transaxle or using the transaxle that the engine swap engine came with.
 
Dan Sarandrea (Phila) said:
This may be a blinding flash of the obvious, but engine swaps for the X are really powertrain swaps.

The X 5-speed is pretty much acknowledged to reasonably handle the additional power you get by doing mild-to-moderate head/carb/FI/exhaust work on the stock motor, but from what people post here, once you start getting past the 120-130HP mark, or once you start dropping other engines in, you have to automatically think about beefing up the stock transaxle or using the transaxle that the engine swap engine came with.
Click to expand...

No doubt! I didnt even want to think about trying to mate the stock transaxel to a 175hp superbike engine! it would have been a nightmare and expense far beyond what I have pockets for...
And speaking of pockets... I wish I had deep enough ones for this fancy little motor, it would quite possibly be the easiest V8 to fin in these fantastic little cars....

http://secure2.cyberware.co.uk/~rad-shop/acatalog/sr8engineancillaries.html

Serious power, and seriously tiny... sadly seriously expensive!

Other than what I have listed, is there anything else y'all can think of that I am going to need?
 
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