First autox with the x

JimMW

JimMW

autoxer
We trailered the x to Hershey this weekend for the first AX of the season. We [thought] we had gotten the car running well in the last couple of weeks so figured why wait to have some fun with it.

It’s important to note that the car isn’t registered or street legal yet. Meaning, neither my dad nor I had much of a chance to test drive it. Our experience behind the wheel was limited to short blasts down the alley behind his place, which were taken while working on it to gauge progress. So the autox itself was really the first drive.

My first two runs were good. “Good” meaning the car ran smooth and I had fun. I was SLOW and not even close to competitive, which is frustrating, but to be fair it was the first time in the car and all that….. The third run it started sputtering again and I couldn’t even finish. I limped it back and we tinkered with it in the pits. It seemed to improve and I got to run my 4th time, but it started hesitating and sputtering again. I was able to finish that time, but was 7 or 8 seconds slower than the first two. My dad unfortunately didn’t get his turn because of how the car was running.

We figured maybe more crap got in the carb. At home we tore things apart… the gas tank is CLEAN and the sock at the end of the line has NOTHING in it. It’s pumping plenty of fuel, the filter has great flow, and the gas is clean and plentiful coming through the lines at the carb. The carb had been thoroughly cleaned. We think there’s either junk in it again (but from where?), or the carb simply isn’t working right. There is a happy ending though – we had picked up a “new” carb in the past two weeks, just in case this one wouldn’t get working. We slapped it on Saturday, took a longer illegal test drive, and the car definitely ran better than ever before. The tags should show up within the next 1.5 weeks, so we’ll get more of a chance to put more miles on it.

It would have been too much to realistically expect everything would have gone off without a hitch on Saturday, especially since we didn’t get to test it out much beforehand. It did suck breaking down there, and we were both a little frustrated, but it was a first step and at least I got two runs out of it. I’ll be looking forward to next time. So will my father!

A couple pics…
I think stiffer or cut springs are definitely in the future. The shocks are KYB’s that don’t look or act very old at all (they were on the car when we got it).
m211876885.jpg


m211876884.jpg
 
Joining the "Cone Killers"

Looks like fun Jim. Sorry to hear you still had issues, but it is a work in progress.

If you do cut your springs, be sure to tie them to the perches afterward. Especially if you cut them down a lot. Madd.Matt has lots of stock springs, so you can get extras if you need them. ;)
 
Jim... any Jim will do...

I put up a post with photos on my last lowering spring mod and used LEZESIG's easy shaft mod.

Its the only way to go if using stock KYBs and cut springs... Please don't tie them...

Lastly... If you want to do much more auto crossing, write Heloscher and get some specs on using STOCK REAR cutdown springs in the FRONT of the car.

If he can win 5 Championships with FREE springs modified... I think you might wanna heed his advice.

And... KUDOS to you and your Dad for making the effort and sharing it with us!

(Obviously... there is still crud in that old carb... huh! Might let it soak in acid for another 30 minutes again and try it again. Hopefully you found a 32 or 34 to replace it with though... and the powers that be at Autocross won't care... until ya start WINNING! HA!)
 
Thanks for the words of wisdom, Tony. I had already found your write up on spring cutting and think I have it bookmarked. I had read elsewhere about using rear springs on the front. I'll have to look into it. Don't know what our timeline is on suspension changes... it would probably be smarter to go after the stuff we haven't attended to on the car first.

And yeah, we picked up a 32 for the replacement carb. Seems more lively than the old one, though that one obviously wasn't running 100% so it might not be a fair comparison. I didn't see the official times yet, but I think it'll be a long time until anyone is questioning our car and the appropriate class, haha. We'll get there...
 
crud in the carb.

on every carbed fiat I have owned (all '79-'80) I had an issue with fuel boiling in the carb. when ever the car got run hard and hot, it would stumble to the point I couldnt drive it. If I let it sit and cook off, it was fine for a little while. one time I also notices the catalytic converter was red hot. I happened to have a hacksaw with me and did a catalytic-ectomy on the side of the road. the car immediately started up and I drove home (deaf by the time I got there, but still got home) I put a generic turbo thrush muffler on it and drove it for 2 years without ever having the stumbling issue again. Every X I have had after that, as soon as it would start to stumble, I removed the emissions (I love michigan and non checking for emissions) and never had that issue again.

I am not saying to remove anything, I am just saying if you are pretty sure the carb is clean, look for other possibilities of what could be causing the issue.


Odie
 
This is why there is a fan inside the engine compartment with duct work to the carb.. to prevent fuel from boiling and vapor lock.

Going to a smaller aftermarket air cleaner that allows better cooling and removing the rain tray helps too. The stock air cleaner tends to hold heat under the carb causing the problem.

autox19 said:
on every carbed fiat I have owned (all '79-'80) I had an issue with fuel boiling in the carb. when ever the car got run hard and hot, it would stumble to the point I couldnt drive it. If I let it sit and cook off, it was fine for a little while. one time I also notices the catalytic converter was red hot. I happened to have a hacksaw with me and did a catalytic-ectomy on the side of the road. the car immediately started up and I drove home (deaf by the time I got there, but still got home) I put a generic turbo thrush muffler on it and drove it for 2 years without ever having the stumbling issue again. Every X I have had after that, as soon as it would start to stumble, I removed the emissions (I love michigan and non checking for emissions) and never had that issue again.

I am not saying to remove anything, I am just saying if you are pretty sure the carb is clean, look for other possibilities of what could be causing the issue.


Odie
Click to expand...
 
This is what a stock X looks like at a autocross.. The car will need stiffer springs and proper tires and wheels to make it a cone killer.

I have no idea what is allowed in the series you're running in. A number of us can make suggestion on what to do..within the limits of the rules.

Bernice

JimMW said:
A couple pics…
I think stiffer or cut springs are definitely in the future. The shocks are KYB’s that don’t look or act very old at all (they were on the car when we got it).
Click to expand...
 
I kept the fan

the fan was on all my cars, It was usually running when I had the issues. I am sure there was more reasons why it was running that hot (proabaly running lean). In the late 90's I also switched to the dual dcnf's and just modified the outlet of the fan to cover both carbs. With very limited length on the exhaust,my logic (albiet right or wrong) was the exhaust wasnt escaping quick enough. Seeing the catalytic converter glowing bright red told me it was running very hot. It was at night, it was late, and I was in BFE so I needed to try something. Off it went.

I am not even going to guess if I solved a problem, or solved a symptom, (I am leaning towards symptom) I just know that a hot carb will boil, and will cause stumbling. I am sure there might be some other issues that could cause it as well. Cleaning a carb isnt that tricky, and it would be an easy check, but if you dont find anything there, I would start looking at other factors. did it happen after a few fast runs? if you let it sit will the issue go away? did the amount of fuel in the tank change? Did the choke go faulty? (I had a friend with a manual choke vibrate on every now and then) did you forget to pray to the italian gods?

Odie.
 
Ditch the cat if you're going to race it. The stock cats from that era were restrictive and will glow RED hot when the car is driven hard.

The lenght of the exhuast system is a very important part of the tuning of the engine. Basically shorter is not better, depending on the operating RPM of the engine, this sets the primary tube lenght of the exhaust header.

What is the fuel pressure to the carb? Are there any vacuum leaks in the intake? Is there is phenolic or similar heat shield between the intake manifold and carb?

Bernice

autox19 said:
the fan was on all my cars, It was usually running when I had the issues. I am sure there was more reasons why it was running that hot (proabaly running lean). In the late 90's I also switched to the dual dcnf's and just modified the outlet of the fan to cover both carbs. With very limited length on the exhaust,my logic (albiet right or wrong) was the exhaust wasnt escaping quick enough. Seeing the catalytic converter glowing bright red told me it was running very hot. It was at night, it was late, and I was in BFE so I needed to try something. Off it went.

I am not even going to guess if I solved a problem, or solved a symptom, (I am leaning towards symptom) I just know that a hot carb will boil, and will cause stumbling. I am sure there might be some other issues that could cause it as well. Cleaning a carb isnt that tricky, and it would be an easy check, but if you dont find anything there, I would start looking at other factors. did it happen after a few fast runs? if you let it sit will the issue go away? did the amount of fuel in the tank change? Did the choke go faulty? (I had a friend with a manual choke vibrate on every now and then) did you forget to pray to the italian gods?

Odie.
Click to expand...
 
rich vs lean

good point. Although I always thought a engine running hot was indicative of it running lean. I would make more sense that if it were running rich the exhaust would run hot. I never seperated the engine heat vs exhaust heat in my head.
I have been wrong many times, and as I continue to learn, I will be wrong again and again.

Odie
 
general feedback

The car was always sputtering and gasping when we first got it.... hot, cold, whenever. We did a "catalytic-ectomy" of sorts already too, thinking it might have something to do with the problem, but it didn't make any change to the performance. As for mine, I'm not sure the specific fuel pressure, but as I said in my first post, it definitely looks to be sufficient. We replaced the majority of vacuum and fuel lines, so I don't think that's the problem. We have the new carb on and after some more wheel time we'll know if the problem is licked or not. I think saying the old carb was the problem is a safe bet. Oh, our fan works too, though we're thinking of putting an electric switch on it so we can get it blowing on the carb right away.

I should say that I don't think my posts give my dad enough credit. He's been working on muscle cars and other carbureted machines for 3/4 of his life and really does know what he's doing. I'm the one learning so I ask a lot of questions. I'm confident in his abilities with it, I think we just got some crud into the carb again or there is something functionally wrong with it.
 
more feedback

This X was bought almost solely for AXing, so we wouldn't put abuse on our regular rides. There will be some regular street joy riding on the side though. This project as a whole is a hobby for us and we aren't going to be making drastic changes to it for a while. The car needs work in general, so we'll be corssing things off the to-do list and making improvements as we get to them. Though we (me especially) are competitive natured, the father/son project aspect of it is more important than becoming really competitive in AutoX really fast. ...Hopefully what I'm saying makes sense. There's a budget to keep in mind, too.

I've done a ton of searching on here and the web in general and have a lot of info saved that should help us build this thing up for AX. I'm not going to be shy about asking questions either, as I'm sure more will keep coming up. I appreciate all of the advice and offers so far, everyone here seems to be extremely helpful and supportive.
 
Cool! Its good to see another X dancing around the cones!

Get another set of rear springs for the front and cut them down. If you are careful you will not need to zip tie the springs to the perches.

Cut the stock rear springs carefully as well and you will not need to zip tie them either. The stance will be perfect if you do them correctly. If you go with anything stiffer on the front you will HATE driving the car around town.

Lighten the car up if you can. Anything you can toss out within the rules....do it! When you need to replace the clutch have Mad.Matt lighten your flywheel for you. This is the single best modification you can make to the autocrossing X.

Dump the cataletic converter if it is legal to do so. If your airconditioner is not working...toss it and all the plumbing.

Are your wheels 5-1/2 inches wide? If not....get you some. Do you have race rubber? If not you can get slightly used tires from various venders on the internet for $20 to $25 dollars each.

And Most Of All......HAVE FUN! I am glad to hear you are doing it with your Dad. I started out the same way. My Dad use to race a Fiat 850 years ago when they were called Gymkanas.

My best!
 
Odie...

Note where I live...

I pulled the wiring off, then the entire carb-fan unit and ducting back in 1984... and have NEVER had any "boiling issues". I got tired of the heat causing my fan to run all day and leaving work only to find I had a dead battery.

But I live a "blessed" life I'm told... HA!
 
Very Interesting Cars at Autocross

Check out the pictures posted at www.scca-susq.com for pictures of cars/trucks you don't normally see at an autocross. I spotted the following:
Chevrolet Lumina Z34
Ford SVO Mustang
1964 Ford Fairlane 4dr
Chevrolet S10 Pick up
1973 Ford Mustang Convertible
1970 Jaguar E type 2+2
(New Model) Dodge Charger

What an interesting mix of cars!
Dave
 
Interesting cars indeed!

You're right, Dave, there was quite a variety there. That Jag was really an eye catcher. It's actually a 71 with a Chevy V8 crate motor in it. It had a ton of body roll and the driver got a bit confused on the course once or twice, so I didn't think the times were that impressive (though still much faster than me). A COOL car though. Hot Rod magazine did a feature on it in February: Hot Rod Article

I took some pictures of it too, which obviously aren't as good as the Hot Rod article. Jim's Flickr

As for some of the others, that SVO and Fairlane are actually sort of regulars at the local events. This car is really cool too, the owner made it himself "from scratch" more or less as an Atom replica.

We definitely get to see some good ones.
 
Hi Jim,

Great write up on the first outing. And welcome to the club of the hopeless addicts.

One of the things you learn from racing and autocrossing is: it turns up any issues with the car.

Lots of good advise above.

When you get ready to start improving the car, let me know. And I will leave you with this: the X1/9 is one of the most successful cars in the history of autocrossing. And my DSP X was the best racecar I have ever driven. Period.
 
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