Fuel injection option

khnitz

khnitz

True Classic
Last week I came across the Holley Sniper EFI system and the video below showing it installed in an air-cooled VW Beetle.

I have to say - this is really intriguing me. I think I would get my Spider running with its original engine, and then over the Winter rebuild one of the other spare engines I have here to add this EFI system and then swap it in (so as to keep the original engine, well, original). Seems like the only custom piece that would be needed is the adapter plate from the intake to the Sniper unit (like what was created for that Beetle).

It's a long video, so if you don't watch it all, at least skip ahead toward the end to see him fire the engine up! SO satisfying :)

Thoughts or experience?

 
EDIT: see my comment at the bottom of this post.

I have not watched the video, did it say what size engine they put it on?

Some time back there was a thread where someone wanted to add the Sniper to his X1/9 engine. As I recall, comments suggested it would not likely work well on such a small engine due to the size of the injectors and other parameters. And that was a 1500 engine, so I can't imagine it has too much luck on a 850. See if you can find that thread, it might offer better insight than my poor memory does.

Also you may want to read up a bit on EFI systems in general to get a better feel for how things must match the application. ;)

EDIT: I just saw a little bit of the video you posted. This is a different Sniper than I was referring to. The Sniper discussed for the X1/9 was a two barrel unit. This one is a single barrel (link below), which did not exist back when the prior discussion took place. So this smaller unit might work after all. Sorry my first comments were misleading.

Holley Sniper EFI 550-552 Holley Sniper EFI Autolite 1100 - Classic Gold

Are you tired of struggling with the old Autolite model 1100 series carburetor on your classic Ford? The team at Holley has designed the perfect solution for your problems. The Sniper EFI replacement throttle body for Autolite 1100 carburetors will be right at home on most early in-line 6...
www.holley.com www.holley.com
 
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Dr.Jeff said:
EDIT: I just saw a little bit of the video you posted. This is a different Sniper than I was referring to.

Holley Sniper EFI 550-552 Holley Sniper EFI Autolite 1100 - Classic Gold

Are you tired of struggling with the old Autolite model 1100 series carburetor on your classic Ford? The team at Holley has designed the perfect solution for your problems. The Sniper EFI replacement throttle body for Autolite 1100 carburetors will be right at home on most early in-line 6...
www.holley.com www.holley.com
Click to expand...
Thanks for sharing their link. I reviewed that Holley site after I first found that video. It really does seem promising.

So many projects I want to tackle, and so many already on my plate 😄
 
I know several that have installed Sniper system to varying degrees of success. The learning curve is long. The placement of the O2 sensor seems very critical (might be tough on an 850 exhaust) I’m also a Toyota Lancruiser fan and their forum has extensive threads about the Sniper. It takes most guys a long time to get it running correctly. My main reason for avoiding it on that vehicle is that there have been electronic failures (in the actual unit) far from civilization. My carbureted Cruiser always starts so I decided to keep in simple.
That being said if there is a thread here I’d be glad to follow.
 
The first thing to remember about any EFI conversion is the horsepower is in the timing. The injectors will give an improvement over any Weber but it's the firing of the spark at exactly the right time, all the time that will make the drivability of your 850 the same as a new car!
So the easiest conversion is to fit a full EFI system off a "Fiat" 850 engine still in production. Use the ECU and throttle body off that engine. It rotates the other way but that's not a problem.
I would suggest reading Ditchdiggers build story first. https://forum.retro-rides.org/thread/70073/1971-fiat-sedan-resurrection-starts

He uses a Microsquirt ECU with a Ford EDIS-4 ignition system as I do. With the newer coil packs the Microsquirt can drive the coils without the EDIS system. The whole lot is tuned on Tunerstudio on a laptop. There are hundreds of YouTube videos out there.

This is my system. What you would do would be along similar lines but without the supercharger. Ditchdigger used a variety of injector/throttle body combinations. I have seen one local 850 engine with two injectors in the side of the head. One injector firing into each of the Siamesed ports. I use two injectors firing down through the original Weber manifold. The Siamese intake is always going to be a limitation. It's worth looking into how the BMC A series engine with the same Siamese intake system gets converted to EFI

 
NM850 said:
I know several that have installed Sniper system to varying degrees of success. The learning curve is long. The placement of the O2 sensor seems very critical (might be tough on an 850 exhaust) I’m also a Toyota Lancruiser fan and their forum has extensive threads about the Sniper. It takes most guys a long time to get it running correctly. My main reason for avoiding it on that vehicle is that there have been electronic failures (in the actual unit) far from civilization. My carbureted Cruiser always starts so I decided to keep in simple.
That being said if there is a thread here I’d be glad to follow.
Click to expand...
Interesting that the Sniper takes so much to make it work, I'm surprised. I thought the benefit of this over other EFIs is the advanced software that 'self-tunes' effectively enough to be 'hands-off'....'plug-and-play'. Otherwise it really has no advantage over a "real" EFI, which offers much more benefits. For example, like @ramona300 said, the ignition control - in conjunction with the AFR - is a vital aspect of getting the most out of the engine. If I'm not mistaken the Sniper does not offer ignition control? If not then you are MUCH better off with a tunable system like the MicroSquirt (MS) that @ramona300 describes. That way the system controls both fuel and spark. Frankly for the price of the Sniper you could build a complete MS based system. Especially if a existing EFI set up is available for the 850 engine; just use the intake manifold / injector arrangement from it and build the rest with a MS ECU.
 
Jeff ”plug and play” is the theory of the Sniper. In theory it’s supposed to start with a base line and then learn. But reading the forums and knowing and having driven one individuals vehicle I can tell you the learning curve is long and affected by a lot of variables. You are correct an MS or other system that takes timing into account is much better in the long run, but they never advertised “plug and play”
Of course I love reading about people experimenting and making a system work like ramona300 but in the end my 850 always starts and runs as intended on the old DIC1. I think some see it as an easy way to make a car run better but for a street car I don’t think it’s worth the effort..
 
In the video above the engine is being tuned with Tunerstudio on the laptop. I do all my fuel tuning with the auto analyse function. I load base maps that are computer-generated and once I have the car running just drive around the circuit. It takes about 2 laps to get running pretty good and then I just flog out a few more laps to refine the map. The timing has to be done manually to find a safe amount of advance and that is best on the dyno. Megasquirt do have plug and play systems, just not for the Fiat.
During the covid lock down I converted my Porsche to full EFI using another Microsquirt. I got rid of the mechanical fuel injection and the distributor. This completely changes the drivability and a forty-year-old car suddenly drives like a new car.
 
I imagine the issue with the Sniper is with the "self-learning" software. I'm guessing it is not very good. By comparison I've heard a lot of very positive reports of utilizing nothing but the auto tune function with MS. This makes me think the outcome results are very different depending upon what system and software you are running.

As for FI vs a carb, well I suppose there is a lot of individual subjectivity involved. But you cannot deny the huge advancement that FI offers in technology. Ask yourself why all current production vehicles have FI rather than a carb?
 
There is no comparison with carburettors and fuel injection really. Yes a twin sidedraft Weber on a 1050cc Fiat engine sounds really good. At the start of the hillclimb the two Weber fed cars run really nice. At the top of the hill after a large elevation change it's a different story.
The real problem with a carburettor is finding a dyno operator that will touch it. EFI is completely different where you can have your car tuned remotely from anywhere on the planet!
 
One might consider looking at the GEO Metro 3 cylinder injection system which used a single port injector and would be a similar level of hp. These cars are getting rarer in junk yards but one does run across them. I have the repair manual for this car somewhere to look at how they make it work. Pulling a whole system wouldn’t be too difficult.

The EU Bosch mono injector system is a very similar system to what was used on the GEO.


 
ramona300 said:
There is no comparison with carburettors and fuel injection really. Yes a twin sidedraft Weber on a 1050cc Fiat engine sounds really good. At the start of the hillclimb the two Weber fed cars run really nice. At the top of the hill after a large elevation change it's a different story.
The real problem with a carburettor is finding a dyno operator that will touch it. EFI is completely different where you can have your car tuned remotely from anywhere on the planet!
Click to expand...
Driving between my two homes at 5300’ and 8200‘ I completely agree. I’ve never had my 850 above 6300’ or below it’s lifelong 5300’ (bought from original owner) Its jetted for the 5300’ and just runs as it does. In aviation we used a general rule of losing 3% hp/1000’ that means its making a whopping 44hp a best. That would probably be the biggest advantage to injecting the before mentioned LandCruiser. It goes from 5300’ to over 12000’. It does have a High Altitude Compensating valve but FI would be much better I’m sure.
 
NM850 said:
Driving between my two homes at 5300’ and 8200‘ I completely agree. I’ve never had my 850 above 6300’ or below it’s lifelong 5300’ (bought from original owner) Its jetted for the 5300’ and just runs as it does. In aviation we used a general rule of losing 3% hp/1000’ that means its making a whopping 44hp a best. That would probably be the biggest advantage to injecting the before mentioned LandCruiser. It goes from 5300’ to over 12000’. It does have a High Altitude Compensating valve but FI would be much better I’m sure.
Click to expand...
I believe MS can compensate by using a second MAP sensor to read ambient air pressure (aka a barometric air pressure sensor, often the same model as the MAP sensor) which could help.
 
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