Fuel starvation after prolonged high RPM

Facet fuel pumps were the "go to" fuel pump for carbs years ago. Always worked, reliable, durable.
As mentioned, the recent ones are not holding up at all. Something has changed, not sure what. After being nearly stranded by a intermittent pump.. that is enough.

Bernice


I ran facet pumps for ever and never had a problem but I wouldn't be surprised to find out that their quality has degraded, likely with a relocation of manufacturing to a lower quality, off-shore source.
 
Thanks everyone for your input! This is really the most friendly and helpful forum that exists 😊

So it looks as though I'll be adding an inline fuel pressure sensor and connecting it to the current data logger so that I can correlate the periods of high RPM to the fuel pressure. In addition, I'll reset the float level (which is what I'm suspecting is the issue).

The only other "modification" that may have affected the fuel pressure was that I added a return (this isn't standard on a DCNF) by adding a T fitting and putting a restrictor in one of the legs (I blocked it off and drilled with a 0.8mm bit). This was essentially the same level of return as the previous 34 DMTR. I made sure that I fitted this as close as possible to the carburettor, but I suppose that excess return fuel will impact the pressure delivered to the carb. In any case, the fuel pressure sensor will tell...

Many thanks again!
Dom.
 
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putting a restrictor in one of the legs
At the risk of being obvious, make sure the restrictor went into the "return" leg and not the "feed" leg. As you say, depending on the fuel inlet flow the return might allow too much fuel to bypass the carb under high demands.

Maybe consider a bypass/return type fuel pressure regulator rather than the "T" and restrictor arrangement.

126645_ArticleSection_XL_ec15d53b-72ea-442e-b112-304f80ced028.jpg


There are 'adjustable pressure' ones that will go low enough for the Weber's taste.
 
Today was looking at my mechanical fuel pump on my 1982 X 1/9 with Weber carburettor. Have been thinking of using an electric fuel pump fo various reasons. The lack of room between block and coolant hoses/oil filter. The fact that I experienced a fuel line leak engine room fire. Was thinking along the lines of a reliable US made Facet fuel pump. Having read stories of sub-standard manufacturing off-shore am not so keen. Have had extremely reliable, electric fuel pumps on a multitude of cars that I have run, both British, Mini Coopers, Austins and Japanese Honda's.
I am still keen to use an electric pump on my 1982 X 1/9 located on a bracket away from engine heat if possible and with a good inertia cut-off valve.
 
Sadly most of the electric fuel pumps currently on the market are not very good quality. I'm not sure why, maybe has to do with fuel chemistry changes or possibly just lower quality materials. But there has been a lot of occurrences where they simply stop working after a fairly short time in operation. The ones that seem to be better are a lot more expensive but I suppose worth the investment. One that I've heard fairly good results on is pretty common (at least here in the USA) from Holley:
But there are others, just more expensive.
 
Jeff, may have been fully dissuaded from the electric pump track and stay with original mechanical pump. Perhaps a new one with new braided fuel lines suitably attached. Keeps car original, less expense and perhaps more reliable than Chinese made electric pump clones that stop pumping.
Perhaps despite cramped location the fuel pump may have not been the source of my fuel leak that started my engine fire. Also have a carburettor and not fuel injection. Know the American name Holley as reliable fuel systems. Had a few large (650 cfm 4 barrel ) Holley carburettors on some American V8 cars I owned in the late 70's. My 60's-70's points based, electric fuel pumps were totally reliable Smith's Lucas, Nippon Denso and Nippon Seiki. Small close to fuel tank and totally reliable.
 
So quick update on this. Problem solved (for now at least): Facet posi-flow in the bin and Pierburg copy installed in its place. No more fuel starvation and much quieter!
 
Which model Pierburg did you install?

I just used a Marelli copy of one:


But the proper Pierburg number is 7.21440.51.0, e.g.:

 
Have you ever removed the fuel level sender assembly? It is also the fuel feed line, the in tank filter on the feed line could be limiting the fuel flow. If so, this is not good for the fuel pump.
 
So quick update on this. Problem solved (for now at least): Facet posi-flow in the bin and Pierburg copy installed in its place. No more fuel starvation and much quieter!
Glad you got it fixed, but did you ever check the tank venting as Carl suggested earlier? If the tank venting is inadequate, a better pump could just mask the problem (and eventually damage the tank).
 
Glad you got it fixed, but did you ever check the tank venting as Carl suggested earlier? If the tank venting is inadequate, a better pump could just mask the problem (and eventually damage the tank).

No, I forgot to check that but I certainly will. Thanks for the reminder!
 
Stopped using ANY Facet fuel pumps after two of the recently purchased died. Cut one apart to discover they are now "cost reduction" in ways that will make them less reliable-durable. This has become a serious problem for piston engine aircraft as Facet made a 24 volt version for small piston engine aircraft and they are failing (DIY small aircraft forums and else where).

After a significant amount of looking, came up with the Walbro FRB-13 marine-industrial fuel pump series as a FAR better alternative. These cost more than the common Facet fuel pumps, are superior in many ways.



Bernice
I couldn't agree with you more, Bernice. On both my X and 124, I have had Facet pump failures I thought were way too early (and extremely inconvenient). I have resorted to keeping spare pumps in both vehicles.
For my X, I have used a pump designed for carbureted Porsches.
 
I've never tried it but if a good "return style" pressure regulator (with a large return-loop line) was utilized, could a dead reliable Bosch "FI" style pump be used on a carb engine? I know carbs need really low pressure and FI pumps are high pressure, but if the regulator/return is good the pressure might be kept low enough. Pressure and flow are related in a inverse relationship, so the more flow you divert to the return the lower you can maintain the pressure. I guess it depends on a few factors but those pumps have an extremely long life and pretty much never fail (unless you have a badly contaminated tank and don't use a pre-filter). I'm tempted to do this with some of my service equipment that utilizes a low flow fuel pump to circulate solvents. The pumps on that equipment keep dying just like what's being discussed in this thread; the quality of standard pumps is nothing like they used to be.
 
I've never tried it but if a good "return style" pressure regulator (with a large return-loop line) was utilized, could a dead reliable Bosch "FI" style pump be used on a carb engine? I know carbs need really low pressure and FI pumps are high pressure, but if the regulator/return is good the pressure might be kept low enough. Pressure and flow are related in a inverse relationship, so the more flow you divert to the return the lower you can maintain the pressure. I guess it depends on a few factors but those pumps have an extremely long life and pretty much never fail (unless you have a badly contaminated tank and don't use a pre-filter). I'm tempted to do this with some of my service equipment that utilizes a low flow fuel pump to circulate solvents. The pumps on that equipment keep dying just like what's being discussed in this thread; the quality of standard pumps is nothing like they used to be.
Not saying it wont work, but probably not the best option. It would give the fuel regulator a marathon workout. Forcing it to open to the return line to frequently and too long with little time shut. (assuming a higher flow rate). That could cause some inconsistent spikes in fuel pressure. FI pumps are designed to work more in the 40psi range. There is a big difference between 1.5 psi - 3psi and 40 psi, and the regulators are designed to work best at a specific pressure range. 40psi into a 1.5psi regulator could be outside its workable range or damage the regulator. Its also possible that the seals on the lower pressure regulator may not be designed to handle the higher pressure, and could cause premature leaking. Obviously, the system wouldn't be operating at 40psi, if the regulator was adjusting the system to 1.5psi, and there was an adequate sized non-restrictive return line, but my point is, the low pressure regulator could potentially see higher pressures with a higher flow higher pressure FI pump than it would normally see with an appropriate matched low pressure Carb Fuel Pump. Obviously, whether it would work would depend on the specs of the Fuel Pressure regulator and fuel pump. If the FI Fuel pump had a flow rate near equivalent to that of the original carb fuel pump, or flow matched to the carb's draw, it would likely work out ok, as it would also be better matched to the fuel regulator. I also question whether FI pumps by design actually last longer. I've had plenty of FI pumps fail on my Vettes. Id suggest two alternative solutions. 1) Find a reliable brand fuel pump of proper type. or 2) go with a parallel Dual Pump system. So what if one pump fails, if you got a 2nd one pumping simultaneously. Would still need to verify that the fuel line feeds and returns were of adequate size for the flow of the dual pumps, without to much pressure increase or flow loss, but most stock fuel line sizes can handle the addl flow. And would work best with a "return style pressure regulator". Sure two pumps increases pressure and flow too. But My point is, if gonna put in a non-standard system, because reliability is the goal, why not go all the way.
 
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