Going turbo. stock compression 1500 Fi
- Thread starter ALR11606
- Start date
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
***What are your goals for this x1/9 ***
Aero cars are a very different can-O-worms than mechanical grip mostly cars.
Consider for a moment the hundreds of US millions of dollars to Billions of US dollars spent by companies like Dallara, Lola, Ferrari, McLaren, VW, and many others to work out specific aerodynamics for a race car..
Just "bolting or adding it on" is not gonna work.
The amount of down force at the front -vs- rear of the vehicle has a strong effect on chassis behavior, couple this to vehicle speed, mechanical grip and suspension behavior, driver needs and a LOT more including tire behavior and it all becomes a very complex pandora's box really, really fast.
I'm not trying to discourage, this is much about a reality check of what it takes to make a truly high performance vehicle. One can up the power to no end and increase that specific aspect of performance... what about all the other aspects, braking, cornering response, ride, noise and all else?
What makes excellence is not excelling at one specific aspect, it is a finely balance blend of the whole package made to work in harmony with each other. One well known attempt at this goal was the Dallara x1/9. This was Dallara's business calling card to illustrate his abilities as designer, engineer and numerous other abilities. The other example vehicle engineering excellence, Gordon Murray's McLaren F1..
There is a lot that has been done over the decades to the X1/9 (often by some extremely talented individuals), some are absolutely excellent, others should have never been tried. Learn from the history of those who as modified the X1/9 before moving ahead with modifications ideas, plans or goals.
Bernice
Aero cars are a very different can-O-worms than mechanical grip mostly cars.
Consider for a moment the hundreds of US millions of dollars to Billions of US dollars spent by companies like Dallara, Lola, Ferrari, McLaren, VW, and many others to work out specific aerodynamics for a race car..
Just "bolting or adding it on" is not gonna work.
The amount of down force at the front -vs- rear of the vehicle has a strong effect on chassis behavior, couple this to vehicle speed, mechanical grip and suspension behavior, driver needs and a LOT more including tire behavior and it all becomes a very complex pandora's box really, really fast.
I'm not trying to discourage, this is much about a reality check of what it takes to make a truly high performance vehicle. One can up the power to no end and increase that specific aspect of performance... what about all the other aspects, braking, cornering response, ride, noise and all else?
What makes excellence is not excelling at one specific aspect, it is a finely balance blend of the whole package made to work in harmony with each other. One well known attempt at this goal was the Dallara x1/9. This was Dallara's business calling card to illustrate his abilities as designer, engineer and numerous other abilities. The other example vehicle engineering excellence, Gordon Murray's McLaren F1..
There is a lot that has been done over the decades to the X1/9 (often by some extremely talented individuals), some are absolutely excellent, others should have never been tried. Learn from the history of those who as modified the X1/9 before moving ahead with modifications ideas, plans or goals.
Bernice
fiatfactory
Steve Cecchele
Sohc turbo punto/tipo/uno turbo blocks / engines are not often found stateside for sale.
We never saw them in Australia either ... so anyone down under with UnoT based turbo engines/setups have imported all the parts required, so you need to consider that option. We have forum members in the U.K. and Europe that should be able to help you located the required parts.
Another available option is to use an 1100cc 128 based block, that's 80mm, M12 head fasteners, closed deck block style, non siamesed bore... and cheap! Mated to a Yugo 1100 head (late combustion chamber shape the same as the unoT.)
UnoT and Punto GT engines / manifolding / parts come up on Ebay UK and germany...check those sites, not ebay usa.
If your going to make custom manifolding for the exhaust, and spend good dollars on all those add on off the shelf parts... why the insistence on stock internal components?
1500 X19/unoT/punto gt rods are all the same casting AFAIK, so are not really a 'weak' point for the power numbers your talking (which I'm assuming your talking RWHP, not crankshaft HP) but the SCAT conrod option is so cheap that it's a no brainer, and just drill some oiling holes in them for turbo use.
The weakest point of any 'stock internal' turbo build will most always be the piston... fortunately with 80.0 bore 128 blocks, you can get stock unoT (mk 1) turbo pistons on ebay.. or even forged mk2 (lower CH) for around $550usa set.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/312399-J...Compression-/200963031909?hash=item2eca548365
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Fiat-Uno...746?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3a9968939a
The conrods from the 1100/1300 engine are cast, not forged, so would be the weak link if you chose to up power. what would be possible is aftermarket rods (from some other engine...start searching) that will work with the short 55.5 mm stoke, and lower CH mk2 unoT/punto 1372 engine style pistons... so around 122/123mm CtoC...
Ferrera make nice stainless 1mm o/size valves (suit punto Gt style 3 groove valve collets) so you could squeeze 37 / 34.5 valve sizes into an 80.5/81mm bore size. Inconel exhaust valves ... up to around 35mm from several vendors out of serbia/ croatia etc.
Rather than spending so much on bolt on external parts... divert a little more of the budget to building a stout and reliable bottom end, and some head modification /manifolding selection that will work and leave some headroom for improvement.
SteveC
We never saw them in Australia either ... so anyone down under with UnoT based turbo engines/setups have imported all the parts required, so you need to consider that option. We have forum members in the U.K. and Europe that should be able to help you located the required parts.
Another available option is to use an 1100cc 128 based block, that's 80mm, M12 head fasteners, closed deck block style, non siamesed bore... and cheap! Mated to a Yugo 1100 head (late combustion chamber shape the same as the unoT.)
UnoT and Punto GT engines / manifolding / parts come up on Ebay UK and germany...check those sites, not ebay usa.
If your going to make custom manifolding for the exhaust, and spend good dollars on all those add on off the shelf parts... why the insistence on stock internal components?
1500 X19/unoT/punto gt rods are all the same casting AFAIK, so are not really a 'weak' point for the power numbers your talking (which I'm assuming your talking RWHP, not crankshaft HP) but the SCAT conrod option is so cheap that it's a no brainer, and just drill some oiling holes in them for turbo use.
The weakest point of any 'stock internal' turbo build will most always be the piston... fortunately with 80.0 bore 128 blocks, you can get stock unoT (mk 1) turbo pistons on ebay.. or even forged mk2 (lower CH) for around $550usa set.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/312399-J...Compression-/200963031909?hash=item2eca548365
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Fiat-Uno...746?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3a9968939a
The conrods from the 1100/1300 engine are cast, not forged, so would be the weak link if you chose to up power. what would be possible is aftermarket rods (from some other engine...start searching) that will work with the short 55.5 mm stoke, and lower CH mk2 unoT/punto 1372 engine style pistons... so around 122/123mm CtoC...
Ferrera make nice stainless 1mm o/size valves (suit punto Gt style 3 groove valve collets) so you could squeeze 37 / 34.5 valve sizes into an 80.5/81mm bore size. Inconel exhaust valves ... up to around 35mm from several vendors out of serbia/ croatia etc.
Rather than spending so much on bolt on external parts... divert a little more of the budget to building a stout and reliable bottom end, and some head modification /manifolding selection that will work and leave some headroom for improvement.
SteveC
IMHO stock pistons wont handle your power goals,whatever they are with 1000 cc injectors and a turbo topping at ~350 hp.
I have never seen a stock rod failure in the sohc engines. Punto GT pistons fails over 250-270 hp in our experience,stock X pistons should be weaker as they are designed for NA.
Stock trans will have issues for sure. I have removed my 5 speed gearbox in the beginning,as it had failed 5th gear even on stock 85 hp.
I use a VW gearbox with adapter plate,but stock x1/9 axles,they do not have any issues with launch control starts on glued track.
power level for me should be around 300 hp.
Stock gasket is weak and does not have sufficient area to hold up high boost as some people told already before me. Fire ringed gasket is available at Nava linea,they are a bit expensive (220€+shipping),but they worth every cents! Engine doesnt need machining for the rings,this gasket needs a deck surfacing only. Holds 2 bar without a single issue since 2013 for me.
Dont worry about reboring your block,it will work fine with 87mm,these old blocks are closed deck and a tad stronger than new open deck versions. I have seen some Punto GT engines where the top of bore cracked.
I have never seen a stock rod failure in the sohc engines. Punto GT pistons fails over 250-270 hp in our experience,stock X pistons should be weaker as they are designed for NA.
Stock trans will have issues for sure. I have removed my 5 speed gearbox in the beginning,as it had failed 5th gear even on stock 85 hp.
I use a VW gearbox with adapter plate,but stock x1/9 axles,they do not have any issues with launch control starts on glued track.
power level for me should be around 300 hp.
Stock gasket is weak and does not have sufficient area to hold up high boost as some people told already before me. Fire ringed gasket is available at Nava linea,they are a bit expensive (220€+shipping),but they worth every cents! Engine doesnt need machining for the rings,this gasket needs a deck surfacing only. Holds 2 bar without a single issue since 2013 for me.
Dont worry about reboring your block,it will work fine with 87mm,these old blocks are closed deck and a tad stronger than new open deck versions. I have seen some Punto GT engines where the top of bore cracked.
Sandgroper
True Classic
Bernice,
Nice to see your here. At >10 pounds of boost WOT is not held for long before the next gear is called for, 3rd or even 4th on a controlled hillclimb event is not hard for sustained WOT. On the street from the a stop the national speed limit down here is reached in 3rd before the IC even gets hot. Once - , do it a few times and it gets 'cozy'. I'd be interested in seeing a ~10 psi solution for the 1300/1500 There would be no issues with the small inlet tract that is a headache with 20psi. The inlet temps ~14 are noticeable requiring intercoolers. I have no issue with being judicious with use of a powerful loud pedal, it really is no different to driving an Aussie V8 ute - breaking traction with one of those is easy peasy. Feeding the power in sensibly because you know you have too much is not a negative IMHO, not having enough ponies is, the Fiat gearbox will hold you back in any event.
Are were taking about 150 - 200 Hp not 300 horsepower, 150 is heaps enough to make an X 1/9 'lively', is a boost pressure the sensible side of 15 pounds really too much of an ask from the 1500 blocks ability to seal. Knowing that the thermal management is key if you drive it like a newb' and thrash it canyon driving without watching the temps then you either have too much money or little mechanical sympathy ( brains ) or all three. For road cars, it's fun to push to the max, but for long term thrashing, you are going to need to ease off.
Those Saab H blocks are legendary I don't believe relating an engine capable of a reliable 600hp to how poor a 1500 is a fair example. The Saab B234 tops just about anything made by anyone in the mass production segment in its ability to take huge boost and abuse, that it won Wards Best in line 4 engine award two years running in the 90's sort of give it away that it has far more modern engineering than the old 128 SOHC family derivatives, in short its a freak. The standard high strength and light weight internals were a result of chasing fuel economy whilst having V6 levels of power in a 4 cylinder. Twice the capacity twice as many valves, balance shafts etc etc etc. Its like comparing a Uno Turbo to an EVO 10 and remarking the Uno is poor. If you have ever driven a stock 9-3 manual and 'enjoyed' the 3 to 4th gear on boost accelleration when overtaking you will understand why they were so popular and became "Repmobiles" in Europe. That the shortened 204 became a poster child engine swap into GM and Opel cars is testament to how good they were. But it brings up an interesting point about the FWD Saab's ecu boost tapering - you didn't get all the goodies all the way across the rev band. Can the MSquirt control an electronic waste gate? The Trionic engine management was excellent and nice to tune with -though not the same as a true standalone built for custom mapping.
F1’s turbo era is remembered for its gladiatorial spectacle – the ultra-high performance qualifying engines and flame-spitting exhausts. Faced with such an excess of power the teams could run steeper wing angles which not only gave the cars more grip in the corners, but created more drag and facilitated overtaking. I remember Williams floating skirts actually saw that the front wing was not even required, when that was banned when the fuel economy limits failed to reign them in they obviously bolted them back and the 'balance' of downforce vs power to maximise grip has been with us ever since. I share the concern about AL's boot idea, also the additional complexity of long complex pipework can result in pumping losses. Increasing the pressure at the turbine discharge to compensate just adds more heat (catch 22).
Want a "Dallara" head ( bring big check book )
http://www.cfmotori.it/products.htm#
Nice Work there Steve,
Seriously many thanks for that information, I can vouch for that supplier - hope the Euro keeps Greece in. WRT the 4 missing head bolts at the oil return side do you believe that could be a problem. From what I have read about the SOHC family and from one Kiwi UT block I never used, as it was stuffed, overheating can twist these blocks is there much truth in that from your experience?
AL, Uno / Punto engines were not available in the Continental United States, neither Australia nor the America's got them. Down here we are slightly fortunate that they went to New Zealand, but not in vast numbers. We have so many Kiwis here as we travel back and forth across "The Ditch" without a Visa it's sort of like crossing the border into Canada, but we have water not a fence so getting parts isn't too hard. Just one of those quirks I have the same 'issue' with finding enough 5 speed GBs, broke one and found another after much rummaging around. Still like to find another but the holy grail is the bottom change Uno Turbo box, the Strada box was borrowed to put in the X1/9, we are talking about the 1500 Strada, for a start the Uno gearbox has the shifter shaft coming out from the opposite side to an X19 gearbox, obviously to suit front wheel drive application. Sadly the Uno gearboxes are mostly of the Tipo kind but I am really only familiar with is the Uno turbo, Im sure the other Uno five speeds are different...(not available in Australia either). The turbo model has totally different inboard CV joints to the lesser Uno, same as the X19 five speed, different inner and outer cv's, different rear hubs and bearings from its 4 speed. The sought after'85-'88 Uno Turbo "bottom linkage gearbox" is based on a GB that is in the Strada. I have read of people using the gears out of this to improve a 128 box, so I think it must be the same as the gearbox described above. This has inner CV joints - almost Unobtanium.
Steve C can you check to see if I collated that bit above wrong as my library is pretty patchwork when it comes to the GBs.
Importing from the Euro Zone is costly and prohibitive as I understand your customs guys can be really prickly, down here it seems they are quite helpful. Did you know anyone who can be your agent in Europe, I can attest having relatives there helps a lot. I wouldn't take a punt unless I had someone there to look at it. If you really want to do the sums there is an OLD Fiat Turbo engine on UK eVilbay now ( condition unknown, junk? but gee that's cheap). I you do think of importing consider others have gone down similar paths before you and it did not end well as what they received is not the condition they were expecting. (Myron was looking for a Uno T head and that UK seller has a spare, maybe he is still interested).
There is one Fiat IHI flange pattern cast iron manifold and two different Garrett flange ones from the Uno/Punto, they all fit the 1500 head, heavy on shipping freight but never seen a cracked one. If you want a tubular aftermarket one have a look for EF Racing on eVilbay in Italy. They have support plate mounting at the flange to take the weight of the turbo. Without the lower support the tubular manifold can crack, especially 316 stainless. If you DIY build one support the compressor from below somehow, the Uno and Punto blocks had bolt bosses cast in for this but obviously this is missing on the 1500.
The siamese of bores at each end of the block isn't the end of the world but illustrates very clearly that cooling is key.
I don't have the same doubts that Steve has about the closeness of the bores at the deck as the later Punto Turbos were a significantly different 'open deck' block face design and they sustain 1+ Bar of boost. Is there something I am missing, I have never had my hands on one but from the images I have seen there isn't a lot of deck surface area so why isn't it a problem for a later Punto Turbo and it is for a 1500 SOHC. I'd like to come to understand that. Given the worries about how close ( really really close ) cylinders are to one another focus on the HG choice. Hence my comment on the available Euro gaskets. I don't shop at the link below but all of the ones I mentioned previously are listed. How well the separate fire rings address the issue of small land between the cylinders would be interesting.
http://www.rallyshop.it/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=49_3922_4264_4291_4297
Mikemo the old Turbo's are no comparison to what is around now. I admit I have never seen the 124 Turbo you speak of in the flesh but I'm not sure Legend industries ( as many didn't ) knew about “thermal siphoning” cooling system design (basically heat rises and pulls colder water in from below). Read this primmer from Garret about plumbing in the turbo water lines so coolant percolates by natural convection even when the engine is off. I have been told a Uno expansion tank is desirable but I use a GM one that does okay. None of my compressor cores have shown signs of abnormal coking on the shafts/bearings. Something anyone bolting a oil/water turbo on a NA engine should consider. Modern ECU's have turbotimer functions in them (the ones I use are over a decade old now and can be set for desired temp/time) I would be flabergasted if the M Squirt community hadn't gotten around to incorporating it. BTW I actually do remove the sheet metal panel between the engine and rear trunk and the boot floor when I don't need to use the boot, it makes a noticeable difference. A few screws and its back in again.
Garrett White Paper 1 - Water Cooling
http://turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/Garrett_White_Papers
In the 80's turbo's were a bit of a 'black art' I remember following Alan Jones (Aussie) at Williams F1 driving Partic Heads Williams FW07 DFV powered ground effects car during the first Turbo era and it was a great unknown. When the French rolled out their 'Yellow Tea Pot' turbos were so unreliable, by the time Jones had gone in 82 poor old Alain Prost had so many DNFs he didn't win the drivers championship. When the thing held together he was invincible, by the end of the Turbo era the turbos were so successful they banned them in 89'. I will never forget the BMW qualifying ‘grenades’ with 1300 Hp and 80 psi of boost. I still have a few of the 'Duke' series Documentaries of racing in the 80/90's. I giggled when I watched Cosworth DFV F1 development of one electronic engine 'brain' had folks that I still revere as engineering Gods scratching their heads and unable to find a missfire. EMF at high RPM generated so much electrical interference in the wiring loom as nothing was shield/grounded. These guys were the best of the best on the planet at the time. Jones despised the move to Turbo's with the overrich backfire on overrun being quite a colourful 'Australian' with the lingo one frosty English morning test track session. Fuel cut on overrun is a basic feature now. But gee those fire breathing monsters were awesome to watch in comparison to the new era turbo cars (read -sound like vacuum cleaners) where the Turbos hardly ever fail.
We take it for granted as basic knowledge now but in 30 years both Turbos and ECU's have come a very long way indeed. Many aftermarket small to medium workshops had a hard time back then finding reliability and it's silly of me to look back from 2015 and giggle. For them it was a brave new world, they did their best with what was available but now the home mechanic has access to stuff they could only have dreamed of. Hi tech twin scroll Turbos can be sourced at junk yards now, the amount of small frame compressors no one wants because folks want the bigger A/R units makes them juicy pickings. As kids we went to Radio Shack for electronic kits to play with, now you can assemble a MSquirt ECU in a similar fashion. Seems an opportunity to fit one on the little X 1/9 if the concerns about 1300/1500 head gaskets can be addressed. 10 - 15 pounds is heaps to get to 150HP, past that it is diminishing returns IMHO.
I still hold that it could be done with 10, but up to 15 pounds is all you can probably get. Above that it will most likely be expensive. I find it odd that there are no concerns with cooling an uprated NA car at 150 HP but with a Turbo it is beyond its ability to cope, most of the heat a compressor uses goes out the exhaust system. Admittedly at ~20psi cramming the air in such an inlet tract makes a lot of destructive heat, so there must be a tipping point somewhere between 7 & 20 psi boost.
Getting hard isn't it AL
edit;
Very many thanks for that first hand experience with the NAVA gaskets, good to know they work at the levels of power you are using.
Sorry didn't see this ( read it but grey matter didn't register )
For the 1500 5 speed it is pretty thin pickings. Bacci & Romano have one $$$$$$$$$$$$ and another one that doesn't fit but I wish did is the one from the Quaife range that is an automatic torque biasing diff for the Uno Box. It is excellent all round and nuclear proof. I tried to figure out why it fits in the Uno but not the X 1/9 but drew a blank, it's only reason I am working my way through a paper excercise ATM with the 500 Turbo 5 speed powertrain- gear box has an LSD available and the engine fits in without slicing and dicing the sheet metal if you custom fab an exh manifold. (a long way off TBH)
Nice to see your here. At >10 pounds of boost WOT is not held for long before the next gear is called for, 3rd or even 4th on a controlled hillclimb event is not hard for sustained WOT. On the street from the a stop the national speed limit down here is reached in 3rd before the IC even gets hot. Once - , do it a few times and it gets 'cozy'. I'd be interested in seeing a ~10 psi solution for the 1300/1500 There would be no issues with the small inlet tract that is a headache with 20psi. The inlet temps ~14 are noticeable requiring intercoolers. I have no issue with being judicious with use of a powerful loud pedal, it really is no different to driving an Aussie V8 ute - breaking traction with one of those is easy peasy. Feeding the power in sensibly because you know you have too much is not a negative IMHO, not having enough ponies is, the Fiat gearbox will hold you back in any event.
Are were taking about 150 - 200 Hp not 300 horsepower, 150 is heaps enough to make an X 1/9 'lively', is a boost pressure the sensible side of 15 pounds really too much of an ask from the 1500 blocks ability to seal. Knowing that the thermal management is key if you drive it like a newb' and thrash it canyon driving without watching the temps then you either have too much money or little mechanical sympathy ( brains ) or all three. For road cars, it's fun to push to the max, but for long term thrashing, you are going to need to ease off.
Those Saab H blocks are legendary I don't believe relating an engine capable of a reliable 600hp to how poor a 1500 is a fair example. The Saab B234 tops just about anything made by anyone in the mass production segment in its ability to take huge boost and abuse, that it won Wards Best in line 4 engine award two years running in the 90's sort of give it away that it has far more modern engineering than the old 128 SOHC family derivatives, in short its a freak. The standard high strength and light weight internals were a result of chasing fuel economy whilst having V6 levels of power in a 4 cylinder. Twice the capacity twice as many valves, balance shafts etc etc etc. Its like comparing a Uno Turbo to an EVO 10 and remarking the Uno is poor. If you have ever driven a stock 9-3 manual and 'enjoyed' the 3 to 4th gear on boost accelleration when overtaking you will understand why they were so popular and became "Repmobiles" in Europe. That the shortened 204 became a poster child engine swap into GM and Opel cars is testament to how good they were. But it brings up an interesting point about the FWD Saab's ecu boost tapering - you didn't get all the goodies all the way across the rev band. Can the MSquirt control an electronic waste gate? The Trionic engine management was excellent and nice to tune with -though not the same as a true standalone built for custom mapping.
F1’s turbo era is remembered for its gladiatorial spectacle – the ultra-high performance qualifying engines and flame-spitting exhausts. Faced with such an excess of power the teams could run steeper wing angles which not only gave the cars more grip in the corners, but created more drag and facilitated overtaking. I remember Williams floating skirts actually saw that the front wing was not even required, when that was banned when the fuel economy limits failed to reign them in they obviously bolted them back and the 'balance' of downforce vs power to maximise grip has been with us ever since. I share the concern about AL's boot idea, also the additional complexity of long complex pipework can result in pumping losses. Increasing the pressure at the turbine discharge to compensate just adds more heat (catch 22).
Want a "Dallara" head ( bring big check book )
http://www.cfmotori.it/products.htm#
Nice Work there Steve,
Seriously many thanks for that information, I can vouch for that supplier - hope the Euro keeps Greece in. WRT the 4 missing head bolts at the oil return side do you believe that could be a problem. From what I have read about the SOHC family and from one Kiwi UT block I never used, as it was stuffed, overheating can twist these blocks is there much truth in that from your experience?
AL, Uno / Punto engines were not available in the Continental United States, neither Australia nor the America's got them. Down here we are slightly fortunate that they went to New Zealand, but not in vast numbers. We have so many Kiwis here as we travel back and forth across "The Ditch" without a Visa it's sort of like crossing the border into Canada, but we have water not a fence so getting parts isn't too hard. Just one of those quirks I have the same 'issue' with finding enough 5 speed GBs, broke one and found another after much rummaging around. Still like to find another but the holy grail is the bottom change Uno Turbo box, the Strada box was borrowed to put in the X1/9, we are talking about the 1500 Strada, for a start the Uno gearbox has the shifter shaft coming out from the opposite side to an X19 gearbox, obviously to suit front wheel drive application. Sadly the Uno gearboxes are mostly of the Tipo kind but I am really only familiar with is the Uno turbo, Im sure the other Uno five speeds are different...(not available in Australia either). The turbo model has totally different inboard CV joints to the lesser Uno, same as the X19 five speed, different inner and outer cv's, different rear hubs and bearings from its 4 speed. The sought after'85-'88 Uno Turbo "bottom linkage gearbox" is based on a GB that is in the Strada. I have read of people using the gears out of this to improve a 128 box, so I think it must be the same as the gearbox described above. This has inner CV joints - almost Unobtanium.
Steve C can you check to see if I collated that bit above wrong as my library is pretty patchwork when it comes to the GBs.
Importing from the Euro Zone is costly and prohibitive as I understand your customs guys can be really prickly, down here it seems they are quite helpful. Did you know anyone who can be your agent in Europe, I can attest having relatives there helps a lot. I wouldn't take a punt unless I had someone there to look at it. If you really want to do the sums there is an OLD Fiat Turbo engine on UK eVilbay now ( condition unknown, junk? but gee that's cheap). I you do think of importing consider others have gone down similar paths before you and it did not end well as what they received is not the condition they were expecting. (Myron was looking for a Uno T head and that UK seller has a spare, maybe he is still interested).
There is one Fiat IHI flange pattern cast iron manifold and two different Garrett flange ones from the Uno/Punto, they all fit the 1500 head, heavy on shipping freight but never seen a cracked one. If you want a tubular aftermarket one have a look for EF Racing on eVilbay in Italy. They have support plate mounting at the flange to take the weight of the turbo. Without the lower support the tubular manifold can crack, especially 316 stainless. If you DIY build one support the compressor from below somehow, the Uno and Punto blocks had bolt bosses cast in for this but obviously this is missing on the 1500.
The siamese of bores at each end of the block isn't the end of the world but illustrates very clearly that cooling is key.
I don't have the same doubts that Steve has about the closeness of the bores at the deck as the later Punto Turbos were a significantly different 'open deck' block face design and they sustain 1+ Bar of boost. Is there something I am missing, I have never had my hands on one but from the images I have seen there isn't a lot of deck surface area so why isn't it a problem for a later Punto Turbo and it is for a 1500 SOHC. I'd like to come to understand that. Given the worries about how close ( really really close ) cylinders are to one another focus on the HG choice. Hence my comment on the available Euro gaskets. I don't shop at the link below but all of the ones I mentioned previously are listed. How well the separate fire rings address the issue of small land between the cylinders would be interesting.
http://www.rallyshop.it/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=49_3922_4264_4291_4297
Mikemo the old Turbo's are no comparison to what is around now. I admit I have never seen the 124 Turbo you speak of in the flesh but I'm not sure Legend industries ( as many didn't ) knew about “thermal siphoning” cooling system design (basically heat rises and pulls colder water in from below). Read this primmer from Garret about plumbing in the turbo water lines so coolant percolates by natural convection even when the engine is off. I have been told a Uno expansion tank is desirable but I use a GM one that does okay. None of my compressor cores have shown signs of abnormal coking on the shafts/bearings. Something anyone bolting a oil/water turbo on a NA engine should consider. Modern ECU's have turbotimer functions in them (the ones I use are over a decade old now and can be set for desired temp/time) I would be flabergasted if the M Squirt community hadn't gotten around to incorporating it. BTW I actually do remove the sheet metal panel between the engine and rear trunk and the boot floor when I don't need to use the boot, it makes a noticeable difference. A few screws and its back in again.
Garrett White Paper 1 - Water Cooling
http://turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/Garrett_White_Papers
In the 80's turbo's were a bit of a 'black art' I remember following Alan Jones (Aussie) at Williams F1 driving Partic Heads Williams FW07 DFV powered ground effects car during the first Turbo era and it was a great unknown. When the French rolled out their 'Yellow Tea Pot' turbos were so unreliable, by the time Jones had gone in 82 poor old Alain Prost had so many DNFs he didn't win the drivers championship. When the thing held together he was invincible, by the end of the Turbo era the turbos were so successful they banned them in 89'. I will never forget the BMW qualifying ‘grenades’ with 1300 Hp and 80 psi of boost. I still have a few of the 'Duke' series Documentaries of racing in the 80/90's. I giggled when I watched Cosworth DFV F1 development of one electronic engine 'brain' had folks that I still revere as engineering Gods scratching their heads and unable to find a missfire. EMF at high RPM generated so much electrical interference in the wiring loom as nothing was shield/grounded. These guys were the best of the best on the planet at the time. Jones despised the move to Turbo's with the overrich backfire on overrun being quite a colourful 'Australian' with the lingo one frosty English morning test track session. Fuel cut on overrun is a basic feature now. But gee those fire breathing monsters were awesome to watch in comparison to the new era turbo cars (read -sound like vacuum cleaners) where the Turbos hardly ever fail.
We take it for granted as basic knowledge now but in 30 years both Turbos and ECU's have come a very long way indeed. Many aftermarket small to medium workshops had a hard time back then finding reliability and it's silly of me to look back from 2015 and giggle. For them it was a brave new world, they did their best with what was available but now the home mechanic has access to stuff they could only have dreamed of. Hi tech twin scroll Turbos can be sourced at junk yards now, the amount of small frame compressors no one wants because folks want the bigger A/R units makes them juicy pickings. As kids we went to Radio Shack for electronic kits to play with, now you can assemble a MSquirt ECU in a similar fashion. Seems an opportunity to fit one on the little X 1/9 if the concerns about 1300/1500 head gaskets can be addressed. 10 - 15 pounds is heaps to get to 150HP, past that it is diminishing returns IMHO.
I still hold that it could be done with 10, but up to 15 pounds is all you can probably get. Above that it will most likely be expensive. I find it odd that there are no concerns with cooling an uprated NA car at 150 HP but with a Turbo it is beyond its ability to cope, most of the heat a compressor uses goes out the exhaust system. Admittedly at ~20psi cramming the air in such an inlet tract makes a lot of destructive heat, so there must be a tipping point somewhere between 7 & 20 psi boost.
Getting hard isn't it AL
edit;
Very many thanks for that first hand experience with the NAVA gaskets, good to know they work at the levels of power you are using.
Sorry didn't see this ( read it but grey matter didn't register )
For the 1500 5 speed it is pretty thin pickings. Bacci & Romano have one $$$$$$$$$$$$ and another one that doesn't fit but I wish did is the one from the Quaife range that is an automatic torque biasing diff for the Uno Box. It is excellent all round and nuclear proof. I tried to figure out why it fits in the Uno but not the X 1/9 but drew a blank, it's only reason I am working my way through a paper excercise ATM with the 500 Turbo 5 speed powertrain- gear box has an LSD available and the engine fits in without slicing and dicing the sheet metal if you custom fab an exh manifold. (a long way off TBH)
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Hi all thanks for the replies... honestly i don't know the amount of hp is going to be needed, on track it has to keep up with Evolution's and rx7s/rx8s with bolt ons and good suspension.
As for the aero diffuser idea, I would have a splitter extending to at least the front firewall in the front to offset the rear diffuser.
The amount of intercooler piping would be the same if not less than a normal car with a front mount.
As for the 1500s limits, cooling will be a big concern,
Hopefully the block can dissipate enough heat in between bores.
I never knew about the 1100 block, is a 1500 crank a drop in to bring the displacement back up?
As for turbo sizing, i have messed with a few turbo aircooled beetles in the past, a few with stock dial port heads, which only flow 95cfm *.450 on the intake... they can get t3/t4 turbos spooled by 3000-3200 rpms, Spa turbo actually makes a very small .32 A/R turbine housing, which might actually be too small at the fiats redline. The bugs top out at 6000rpm, considering they can get the turbo moving with that low of flow and still have a usable power band the fiat should be able to do the same... one of the stock longblock 1600dp hand grenades we built lasted a full season making 250hp.
The nice thing about map switching is normally on pump 10psi it would be fine and intake temps would be ok. But with e85 more boost could be ran and the fuel would cool the air and it can take the extra heat. The question definitely is when does it just stop making more power with more boost, 15? 20? and when do parts start to give gaskets, pistons... from just shear cylinder pressure. Only time on the dyno and driving it would tell, but fire rings in a headgasket would make it the pistons that would go.
Or i could just build a NA engine deal with a peaky powerband and take the route always traveled.
But for 200whp a volvo 13g or 15g would be very quick spooling and be plenty, a Audi KKK K03 turbo would provide 150whp easily and spool instantly and very low in rpm with monsterous torque
Either would be interesting to play with.
Sorry if i missed anything.
As for the aero diffuser idea, I would have a splitter extending to at least the front firewall in the front to offset the rear diffuser.
The amount of intercooler piping would be the same if not less than a normal car with a front mount.
As for the 1500s limits, cooling will be a big concern,
Hopefully the block can dissipate enough heat in between bores.
I never knew about the 1100 block, is a 1500 crank a drop in to bring the displacement back up?
As for turbo sizing, i have messed with a few turbo aircooled beetles in the past, a few with stock dial port heads, which only flow 95cfm *.450 on the intake... they can get t3/t4 turbos spooled by 3000-3200 rpms, Spa turbo actually makes a very small .32 A/R turbine housing, which might actually be too small at the fiats redline. The bugs top out at 6000rpm, considering they can get the turbo moving with that low of flow and still have a usable power band the fiat should be able to do the same... one of the stock longblock 1600dp hand grenades we built lasted a full season making 250hp.
The nice thing about map switching is normally on pump 10psi it would be fine and intake temps would be ok. But with e85 more boost could be ran and the fuel would cool the air and it can take the extra heat. The question definitely is when does it just stop making more power with more boost, 15? 20? and when do parts start to give gaskets, pistons... from just shear cylinder pressure. Only time on the dyno and driving it would tell, but fire rings in a headgasket would make it the pistons that would go.
Or i could just build a NA engine deal with a peaky powerband and take the route always traveled.
But for 200whp a volvo 13g or 15g would be very quick spooling and be plenty, a Audi KKK K03 turbo would provide 150whp easily and spool instantly and very low in rpm with monsterous torque
Either would be interesting to play with.
Sorry if i missed anything.
1100 engine has 80mm bore and is smaller in deck height,IMHO you cant do anything with that engine.
Why dont you just drop in some forged pistons? They are available for the 1.6 engine from Wössner Germany (also has dealers in US),or make custom pistons for the 1.5 crank.
When the SOHC starts to drop hp with more boost? I would say,never. It really like boost. In my application 2 bar should be the limit because of the turbo efficiency,but we have seen SOHC boosting with 2.5 bar as well.
Forget the KKK K03,it is just too small,you will get huge torque spike low down making clutch life hard and it will go out of puff. My engine revs up to 8000rpm,power starts to fall above 7500.
First decide your power goals and fuel. For 150 WHP I wouldnt touch the bottom end with proper management,especially with the US low compression. I run 9.2 pistons with slightly modified head chamber,resulting 9:1 CR and E85.Engine takes lots of timing even over 1.6 bar boost.
Cooling: I replaced the radiator to a same size but thicker aluminium one custom made by a local shop. I have no issues since then,but to tell the truth,i use the car for 1/4 mile and street driving. This means i dont know if i would have an issue when used on track all day long full throttle. Also i have removed the lower part of the engine hood to get better heat transfer out of engine bay.
Intercooler is mounted in the rear at the grid,where normally the exhaust was. The exhaust is now in the rear trunk. I can say this place is not so effective as an FMIC for sure. Additional air spoiler under the car could be a solution maybe.
Stock like gasket but new lasted a full season at 1.3 bar and lower timing than now,should be around 240 hp at the crank. I would advice,anything over 200 hp should have aftermarket solution for the gasket.Cheaper than dismantling the whole engine,cleaning from "capuccino- water in oil",replacing bearings and oil.
Why dont you just drop in some forged pistons? They are available for the 1.6 engine from Wössner Germany (also has dealers in US),or make custom pistons for the 1.5 crank.
When the SOHC starts to drop hp with more boost? I would say,never. It really like boost. In my application 2 bar should be the limit because of the turbo efficiency,but we have seen SOHC boosting with 2.5 bar as well.
Forget the KKK K03,it is just too small,you will get huge torque spike low down making clutch life hard and it will go out of puff. My engine revs up to 8000rpm,power starts to fall above 7500.
First decide your power goals and fuel. For 150 WHP I wouldnt touch the bottom end with proper management,especially with the US low compression. I run 9.2 pistons with slightly modified head chamber,resulting 9:1 CR and E85.Engine takes lots of timing even over 1.6 bar boost.
Cooling: I replaced the radiator to a same size but thicker aluminium one custom made by a local shop. I have no issues since then,but to tell the truth,i use the car for 1/4 mile and street driving. This means i dont know if i would have an issue when used on track all day long full throttle. Also i have removed the lower part of the engine hood to get better heat transfer out of engine bay.
Intercooler is mounted in the rear at the grid,where normally the exhaust was. The exhaust is now in the rear trunk. I can say this place is not so effective as an FMIC for sure. Additional air spoiler under the car could be a solution maybe.
Stock like gasket but new lasted a full season at 1.3 bar and lower timing than now,should be around 240 hp at the crank. I would advice,anything over 200 hp should have aftermarket solution for the gasket.Cheaper than dismantling the whole engine,cleaning from "capuccino- water in oil",replacing bearings and oil.
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
Turbo increases not only hp, it increases torque which will likely dissolve the stock gear box before the 1500cc engine gives up.
We dissolved a uprated stock gear box with a 1500cc engine designed and built for endurance racing with about 110 Whp. Adding a turbo will produce more hp and torque putting the stock gear box at even greater risk for failure. Granted track days is nothing like a LeMons race, still the risk for gear box failure is higher.
Beyond this, the stock gear ratios are not ideal for a track car, the ratios between gears is set up for a road car not a track car.
http://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/7518/
The LeMons x1/9 from that time with about 110 Whp, 1800 pounds with a good driver results in a car that a race prepped Porsche 928 cannot pass.
Facts are, the best way to achieve near 200 Bhp / 150 lb-ft reliable is to install an alternative engine-gear box like the Honda K20 with gear box. When the overall cost -vs- power is considered this is simply the better way for those power levels.
Much about 140 Bhp with the stock 1500cc is really up there for power output with the stock gear box ready to wilt. Regardless, this amount of power in the x1/9 is plenty good for road car.
Before adding power, get the weight of your x1/9 as LOW as possible. Each and every bit of extra weigh makes a difference.
What about driver seat, belts and safety?
IMO, get the aero stuff out of consideration until the suspension is completely sorted. Every do-dad added needs sorting out and the more stuff added adds to the problems to sort out.
My way to approach this problem would be to make the chassis-suspension perform as best as possible before adding any power. Bigger wheels-tires (The need to be about 22.5" diameter overall. wider tires alters the contract patch and does not increase it unless there is significant aero loading) will need much sorting along with any suspension or brake alterations. The goal would be to get the x1/9 chassis to a level where it can be driven flat out-full throttle as much as possible on a given track, once this has been achieved, then add power.
IMO, chassis-suspension-brakes is always WAY more important than power alone.
Since then, the stock 1500cc endurance race engine was replaced with a PP 200 Bhp rotary. This is the results with a properly set up chassis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCdBtqe_KdA
It is one of the fastest LeMons cars in the field, right up there with the Eye Sore turbo Miata, FORD T an many other highly modified LeMons cars... which can easily keep up or easily pass more than a few high dollar performance cars.
What does a proper chassis set up rig look like:
http://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/25043/
Accuracy needs to be 0.5mm tolerance on toe, 0.2 degree camber, accuracy in pounds for corner weighing the chassis. These numbers are not achievable using tire/wheels on the chassis.
Bernice
We dissolved a uprated stock gear box with a 1500cc engine designed and built for endurance racing with about 110 Whp. Adding a turbo will produce more hp and torque putting the stock gear box at even greater risk for failure. Granted track days is nothing like a LeMons race, still the risk for gear box failure is higher.
Beyond this, the stock gear ratios are not ideal for a track car, the ratios between gears is set up for a road car not a track car.
http://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/7518/
The LeMons x1/9 from that time with about 110 Whp, 1800 pounds with a good driver results in a car that a race prepped Porsche 928 cannot pass.
Facts are, the best way to achieve near 200 Bhp / 150 lb-ft reliable is to install an alternative engine-gear box like the Honda K20 with gear box. When the overall cost -vs- power is considered this is simply the better way for those power levels.
Much about 140 Bhp with the stock 1500cc is really up there for power output with the stock gear box ready to wilt. Regardless, this amount of power in the x1/9 is plenty good for road car.
Before adding power, get the weight of your x1/9 as LOW as possible. Each and every bit of extra weigh makes a difference.
What about driver seat, belts and safety?
IMO, get the aero stuff out of consideration until the suspension is completely sorted. Every do-dad added needs sorting out and the more stuff added adds to the problems to sort out.
My way to approach this problem would be to make the chassis-suspension perform as best as possible before adding any power. Bigger wheels-tires (The need to be about 22.5" diameter overall. wider tires alters the contract patch and does not increase it unless there is significant aero loading) will need much sorting along with any suspension or brake alterations. The goal would be to get the x1/9 chassis to a level where it can be driven flat out-full throttle as much as possible on a given track, once this has been achieved, then add power.
IMO, chassis-suspension-brakes is always WAY more important than power alone.
Since then, the stock 1500cc endurance race engine was replaced with a PP 200 Bhp rotary. This is the results with a properly set up chassis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCdBtqe_KdA
It is one of the fastest LeMons cars in the field, right up there with the Eye Sore turbo Miata, FORD T an many other highly modified LeMons cars... which can easily keep up or easily pass more than a few high dollar performance cars.
What does a proper chassis set up rig look like:
http://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/25043/
Accuracy needs to be 0.5mm tolerance on toe, 0.2 degree camber, accuracy in pounds for corner weighing the chassis. These numbers are not achievable using tire/wheels on the chassis.
Bernice
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turbo again
keep in mind that the turbo works on the expansion of the exhaust gases I.E. heat. that is detrimental to an enclosed engine comp. long ago, working for an exotic car shop, the owner of a 308 wanted to install one. the owner of the shop decided that since the turbo worked on heat expansion the most logical place was after the cat...NOT!!
we did all the fab work and it was fine in the shop, so we decided to take on a test run. first blast,..raped ape. second run it was on three or four cylinders and coming back to the shop and opening the hood, the turbo and the cat were glowing red and hot enough to poke a hole in the converter with a screwdriver.
so remember the turbo needs heat to perform, and the engine... notta no liken the heat.
mikemo
keep in mind that the turbo works on the expansion of the exhaust gases I.E. heat. that is detrimental to an enclosed engine comp. long ago, working for an exotic car shop, the owner of a 308 wanted to install one. the owner of the shop decided that since the turbo worked on heat expansion the most logical place was after the cat...NOT!!
we did all the fab work and it was fine in the shop, so we decided to take on a test run. first blast,..raped ape. second run it was on three or four cylinders and coming back to the shop and opening the hood, the turbo and the cat were glowing red and hot enough to poke a hole in the converter with a screwdriver.
so remember the turbo needs heat to perform, and the engine... notta no liken the heat.
mikemo
Black-Tooth
Tony Natoli
Al... I find OPINIONS are like BELLY-BUTTONS...
and everyone seems to have a couple...
Its good to see you still have an interest in the upgrade... and probably for many years to come too.
Do send photos to keep up apprized...
and everyone seems to have a couple...
Its good to see you still have an interest in the upgrade... and probably for many years to come too.
Do send photos to keep up apprized...
Black-Tooth
Tony Natoli
Nice to have you back Bernice... nt
..
..
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
Now THIS is an excellent example why I missed being on Xweb! I've been dealing with other forums while focused on my recent (non-Fiat) vehicle projects, and by comparison those forums are nothing but disappointment.
This thread started with an honest question about how to plan a specific project and the responses have offered a wealth of knowledge, experience, and data that would have taken years to learn otherwise.
I for one appreciate the honest and open opinions from everyone. That is what drives further advancement and development. Like anything in life, you will need to determine your own goals and perimeters, then plan accordingly.
Please keep it up, and thanks for everyone's input. Although this is not my thread, after following it I just might end up building a turbo motor purely for the exercise of it.
This thread started with an honest question about how to plan a specific project and the responses have offered a wealth of knowledge, experience, and data that would have taken years to learn otherwise.
I for one appreciate the honest and open opinions from everyone. That is what drives further advancement and development. Like anything in life, you will need to determine your own goals and perimeters, then plan accordingly.
Please keep it up, and thanks for everyone's input. Although this is not my thread, after following it I just might end up building a turbo motor purely for the exercise of it.
gunna
Daily Driver
86.4mm bore turbo
It looks like fiat did actually produce a turbocharged engine with the same bore size as the x1/9 if you look at the link and look at the Uno turbo Mk1specification B
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_128_SOHC_engine
So maybe cooling between the bores wasn't an issue for them or not at the boost they were using anyway, I'm no expert but finding all the different comments fascinating.
It looks like fiat did actually produce a turbocharged engine with the same bore size as the x1/9 if you look at the link and look at the Uno turbo Mk1specification B
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_128_SOHC_engine
So maybe cooling between the bores wasn't an issue for them or not at the boost they were using anyway, I'm no expert but finding all the different comments fascinating.
fiatfactory
Steve Cecchele
misquote / misprint....I have a OE UnoT workshop manual at home, and my Dad has two mk1 UnoT's, and I can assure you they are nor 86mm bore sizes.
mk1 early is 80 x 63.9 (1285)
mk1 later is 80.5 x 63.9 (1301)
all the punto, uno, tipo etc etc sohc variants that were turbocharged used 80/80.5 bore.
SteveC
mk1 early is 80 x 63.9 (1285)
mk1 later is 80.5 x 63.9 (1301)
all the punto, uno, tipo etc etc sohc variants that were turbocharged used 80/80.5 bore.
SteveC
Ok to address the safety concerns first, car will have a autopower 4 pt with harness crossbar, bride racing seats, and gforce 6pt camlock harnesses, i usually only use them as a 4pt on the street so they aren't really a hassle.
With the gearbox issue, i always wanted to know what the main issue that makes them weak, ate the gears too thin? Input or main Shaft made of a inferior material/too small? Not enough support on the ring gear... I know a bit about machining and if a few billet chromoly parts would help it wouldn't be difficult to replicate the stock bits in a stronger material. But if the case itself is weak then i don't know.
If 150 to 200whp is a high limit of many drivetrain parts then a volvo 15g turbo would be perfect, it spooled fast and by 2500 on my terrible flowing 2.1l so add 1500 and I'd be fine with that. Get into boost at 4000 and have until 8500 rpm. That's a pretty wide powerband.
Suspension will be vicks new coilovers, and brakes should hold up well, im going to switch to ebc yellows, stainless lines, and motul racing fluid. Tires will most likely be falken azenis rt615ks 205/50r15 on rota minilite style 15x8 rims.
I've dabbled with aerodynamic balance a bit before but you are right, and not only does the aero change but suspension setup changes due to the forces. A good highspeed setup might make the car undrivable at low speeds and vice versa. So i get your thinking there
Thanks for the knowledge everyone
With the gearbox issue, i always wanted to know what the main issue that makes them weak, ate the gears too thin? Input or main Shaft made of a inferior material/too small? Not enough support on the ring gear... I know a bit about machining and if a few billet chromoly parts would help it wouldn't be difficult to replicate the stock bits in a stronger material. But if the case itself is weak then i don't know.
If 150 to 200whp is a high limit of many drivetrain parts then a volvo 15g turbo would be perfect, it spooled fast and by 2500 on my terrible flowing 2.1l so add 1500 and I'd be fine with that. Get into boost at 4000 and have until 8500 rpm. That's a pretty wide powerband.
Suspension will be vicks new coilovers, and brakes should hold up well, im going to switch to ebc yellows, stainless lines, and motul racing fluid. Tires will most likely be falken azenis rt615ks 205/50r15 on rota minilite style 15x8 rims.
I've dabbled with aerodynamic balance a bit before but you are right, and not only does the aero change but suspension setup changes due to the forces. A good highspeed setup might make the car undrivable at low speeds and vice versa. So i get your thinking there
Thanks for the knowledge everyone
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
Reply beginning with *
Ok to address the safety concerns first, car will have a autopower 4 pt with harness crossbar,
*This is a bolt-in roll over cage set up?
*If yes, check with the event organizer's tech folks before any cage installation. With exception to track day events, the majority of event organizations do not allow bolt-in roll over cages this includes LeMons racing where the roll cage requirements are closer to current FIA requirements. If the cage install is done properly, it can enhance the rigidity of the chassis, done wrong the chassis is instantly and forever ruined.
bride racing seats,
*Call the folks at Ultrashield to discuss having a seat made for you that fits the x1/9. This cost about the same as off the rack except the resulting seat fits better and is safer due to these factors.
https://www.ultrashieldrace.com/catalog/Road-Race-Seats
and gforce 6pt camlock harnesses, i usually only use them as a 4pt on the street so they aren't really a hassle.
*Don't use a six point harness as a four point harness. In a crash, the buckle can be driven into the lower area of the chest resulting in a fatal injury. This applies to all four point harness and why they have been virtually forbidden by most every race tech organization.
*Either use the six point harness as designed and intended to stay with a stock three point seat belt with the race seat.
*If the belts are not properly applied, there is absolutely ZERO the driver can do to alter what those belts can and will do to the driver. This is why "Oh, it's easier" can be a lethal choice.
*If this x1/9 is to be raced, then Hans device compatible belts are a must.
With the gearbox issue, i always wanted to know what the main issue that makes them weak, ate the gears too thin? Input or main Shaft made of a inferior material/too small? Not enough support on the ring gear...
*Weak is a relative item. Apply enough torque, power and load any gear box will fail.
I know a bit about machining and if a few billet chromoly parts would help it wouldn't be difficult to replicate the stock bits in a stronger material. But if the case itself is weak then i don't know.
*Gear box issues are common to most any street car that becomes converted to track duty with a up rated engine and related. This is far more than a simple question of gear box load capacity, what about gear ratios that match the power curved of a specific engine and track? What about the fact that all street synchro boxes are far too slow shifting for serous track duty.
*Properly made gears are hobbled on a gear hobbing machine, then heat treated and in some cases lapped. This kind of machine work is no simple matter.
*Improved gear sets that fit the stock case can be ordered from Bacci Romano. They offer a variety of direct fit gear sets. Some with alterable ratios and dog drive... right up to a Sequential shift box for 11,600 Euros.
http://www.bacciromano.com/?p=prodotti&l=eng&cat1=25&cat2=84&mar=4
*Proper gear box and ratios can never be achieved until an accurate set of dyno curves for the specific engine and track are known.
If 150 to 200whp is a high limit of many drivetrain parts then a volvo 15g turbo would be perfect, it spooled fast and by 2500 on my terrible flowing 2.1l so add 1500 and I'd be fine with that. Get into boost at 4000 and have until 8500 rpm. That's a pretty wide powerband.
*Power band is not determined by turbo alone, there are a host of many, many factors involved from intake-exhaust, intercooler set up, engine management and much more. To believe the results from one example will extrapolate to the 1500cc engine in the x1/9 is not likely going to be reality.
*Easiest way to achieve 200 Whp in the x1/9 is to do a Honda K20 conversion complete with 6 speed Honda gear box. This all happens with a stock tune Honda drive train, some alterations to the gear box to get the gear ratios OK. It is going to be lower cost, more tuning potential and better performance aftermarket parts support.
Suspension will be vicks new coilovers,
*Maybe OK. There is no such thing as a "bolt on" suspension that is going to work properly without chassis set up time, testing and all related. Not gonna happen.
and brakes should hold up well, im going to switch to ebc yellows, stainless lines, and motul racing fluid.
*Stock brakes on the X1/9 is good, but not for 200 Whp specially if this is going to be an x1/9 that spends time on the track. Know stock brake bias is towards the front which has a tendency to "cook" the front brakes in any driving condition beyond performance street driving.
*First brake up grade should be increasing the piston diameter of the rear calipers. This can be done by using the front calipers to the rear or installing the 38mm diameter rear brake calipers from the Lancia Scorpion-MonteCarlo, Fiat 132 and .... This change significantly alters the front to rear brake bias and improves brake performance for these conditions. Know this does increase the tendency for rear brake lock up under some street-road conditions. The other brake mods are generic improvements.
Tires will most likely be falken azenis rt615ks 205/50r15 on rota minilite style 15x8 rims.
*205/50/15 are going to be TOO big in diameter for the x1/9. Eight inch wide wheels are not going to fit well with the chassis lowered and no fender flares. Suggest a rim width of no lager than seven inch and tire no larger than 195/50/15. Oversized wheels and tires impact the suspension geometry in a negative way. Overly wide tires results in more forward drag slowing the car down.
*If serious, tires will be R-compound with the lowest weight wheel possible in the correct over diameter of not much more than 22.5" diameter.
I've dabbled with aerodynamic balance a bit before but you are right, and not only does the aero change but suspension setup changes due to the forces. A good highspeed setup might make the car undrivable at low speeds and vice versa. So i get your thinking there
*As suggested previously, sort out the chassis , brakes and safety stuff before adding power. The most common mistake car folks make when trying to improve the performance of any car is adding power alone.
*Would the car be taking the drive for a ride or is the driver driving the car?
Thanks for the knowledge everyone
Bernice