Good to See

Car auctions always seem to reach for the sky, and especially at those taking place during car week in Monterey each year. In particular, the Quail Lodge event is arguably the highest priced of them all. So I would say they are being extremely optimistic. However I have witnessed several uninformed buyers with more money than sense pay way too much for cars at these events, so who knows.

Nonetheless, follow my logic on this. I hope X1/9's do not escalate to collector prices, and certainly never anything near those numbers. The reason being it would put them out of reach for the average enthusiast that wants a fun, sporty, unique, classic car at a reasonable (affordable) price. Think "practical classic". Sure, those that already own a few of them may think if they become really expensive then they will have a more valuable collection. But would those Fiat fans sell off their X's for the sake of profit? If so then they are not what I'd consider truly passionate about the car in itself. And if they do not intend to sell their X's, then why does it matter how much the market will bear? Instead I'd like to see them remain as they are; great little vintage sports cars that are very obtainable (price wise), lots of fun, and not so valuable that the owners can no longer enjoy them - but instead hide them in a safe storage location, afraid to drive them. I think automotive enthusiasts need cars like these, not only to offset the other end of the car spectrum, but to offer something that can be kept stock, or modified for performance, or customized for uniqueness, or whatever, without fear of ruining the value...because they have very little market value to ruin. If you want to spend a lot of money on a collectable car there are plenty of other (more appropriate) choices out there. Leave some affordable fun for the real world to enjoy.

Absolutely no offense to Gerald, this isn't a direct response to your post. But more of a general opinion I have about the classic car industry and hobbyists like us. And this is also not against the X1/9, in fact quite the opposite. Appreciating the car for what it is, affordability is one of the factors that makes them so great.
 
As Dr. Jeff says, pre-sale estimates at collector car auctions are usually optimistic. Some by a little, some by a lot. Look at the results afterwards and more than half of the cars that sold typically do so at a price that is under the low estimate.

I'm guessing high teens on this one. And keep in mind, 12% commission is tacked on to the high bid. Most bidders factor this into their bidding.
 
Dr.Jeff said:
Car auctions always seem to reach for the sky, and especially at those taking place during car week in Monterey each year. In particular, the Quail Lodge event is arguably the highest priced of them all. So I would say they are being extremely optimistic. However I have witnessed several uninformed buyers with more money than sense pay way too much for cars at these events, so who knows.

Nonetheless, follow my logic on this. I hope X1/9's do not escalate to collector prices, and certainly never anything near those numbers. The reason being it would put them out of reach for the average enthusiast that wants a fun, sporty, unique, classic car at a reasonable (affordable) price. Think "practical classic". Sure, those that already own a few of them may think if they become really expensive then they will have a more valuable collection. But would those Fiat fans sell off their X's for the sake of profit? If so then they are not what I'd consider truly passionate about the car in itself. And if they do not intend to sell their X's, then why does it matter how much the market will bear? Instead I'd like to see them remain as they are; great little vintage sports cars that are very obtainable (price wise), lots of fun, and not so valuable that the owners can no longer enjoy them - but instead hide them in a safe storage location, afraid to drive them. I think automotive enthusiasts need cars like these, not only to offset the other end of the car spectrum, but to offer something that can be kept stock, or modified for performance, or customized for uniqueness, or whatever, without fear of ruining the value...because they have very little market value to ruin. If you want to spend a lot of money on a collectable car there are plenty of other (more appropriate) choices out there. Leave some affordable fun for the real world to enjoy.

Absolutely no offense to Gerald, this isn't a direct response to your post. But more of a general opinion I have about the classic car industry and hobbyists like us. And this is also not against the X1/9, in fact quite the opposite. Appreciating the car for what it is, affordability is one of the factors that makes them so great.
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I would like the X1/9 to attain the same level of "collector car" status as a Porsche 914. Hell, if #2 condition Porsche 914s are selling for $32,000, a #2 X should be able to go for the same money. Positive byproduct of getting to 914-level:
  • More cars being restored vs run into the ground, used up and thrown away.
  • Fewer cars being molested by idiots.
  • More vendors finding and bringing NOS OEM parts to market.
  • More vendors interested in developing quality reproduction parts.

The example above just might be the best X1/9 in the USA, for the reasons described in the write-up, if so there's nothing wrong with it selling for north of $25k.
 
Dan Sarandrea (Phila) said:
I would like the X1/9 to attain the same level of "collector car" status as a Porsche 914. Hell, if #2 condition Porsche 914s are selling for $32,000, a #2 X should be able to go for the same money. Positive byproduct of getting to 914-level:
  • More cars being restored vs run into the ground, used up and thrown away.
  • Fewer cars being molested by idiots.
  • More vendors finding and bringing NOS OEM parts to market.
  • More vendors interested in developing quality reproduction parts.

The example above just might be the best X1/9 in the USA, for the reasons described in the write-up, if so there's nothing wrong with it selling for north of $25k.
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The downside of rising values being that the X 1/9 would price many younger enthusiasts out, forcing them to buy Honda Civics, and other such rubbish.

However, greater value would lead to the positives listed above.

I am torn.

No way that X 1/9 will even flirt with $20k, and it is very, very nice! I'd take mine in lime green...That is the color to have on an X 1/9, if I had to chose.
 
WantAnX1/9 said:
The downside of rising values being that the X 1/9 would price many younger enthusiasts out, forcing them to buy Honda Civics, and other such rubbish.
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It would affect older enthusiasts as well. If Xs were not inexpensive, I would not have one, much less two. Or the other five I have bought and sold over the last 16 years.:D
 
WantAnX1/9 said:
.....The downside of rising values being that the X 1/9 would price many younger enthusiasts out, forcing them to buy Honda Civics, and other such rubbish......
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Generally speaking, younger enthusiasts are not interested in an X1/9 regardless of the price. Judging by who drives what at FIAT and Italian car events, and by what attracts the attention of younger people at car shows, younger car enthusiasts are not interested in an X1/9 but they ARE interested in "...Honda Civics and other such rubbish." At FCA events, I rarely see a younger person driving an X--most are driving modern FIATs. I attend a lot of car shows, and younger people tend to be drawn to Asian cars (not that there are a ton of Asian cars at local car shows) and tend to obliviously walk past European cars that are not Porsches or exotics.
 
Dan Sarandrea (Phila) said:
Generally speaking, younger enthusiasts are not interested in an X1/9 regardless of the price. Judging by who drives what at FIAT and Italian car events, and by what attracts the attention of younger people at car shows, younger car enthusiasts are not interested in an X1/9 but they ARE interested in "...Honda Civics and other such rubbish." At FCA events, I rarely see a younger person driving an X--most are driving modern FIATs. I attend a lot of car shows, and younger people tend to be drawn to Asian cars (not that there are a ton of Asian cars at local car shows) and tend to obliviously walk past European cars that are not Porsches or exotics.
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Sadly, I see this in my area as well...
 
The current rise in Porsche 914 values is primarily a factor of the brand name and the market prices for other models from that manufacturer. For decades the 914 was not even considered to be a Porsche and certainly not respected by the Porsche crowd. However as 911's became unobtainable, buyers wanting a "Porsche" were forced to look at less expensive models (including 924's, 944's, 928's, etc). As those became more sought after, their prices began to rise. For the market to support the same prices for a X, there would need to be the same demand for the brand. Fiats just do not (and I doubt ever will) be as desired as Porsches. Therefore I do not see X's becoming the same value as 914's. Another point that might be a factor in market values between Porsches and Fiat could be quality, but that gets into a sensitive topic here so I won't go any further with it.
Another way to look at this might be the difference between Fiat values and Ferrari values. It could be argued they are related and pretty much the same bones, but their values will never be the same mainly due to the difference in brand name recognition (or lack thereof).

As one of the idiots that molests X1/9s, I do so in part due to the low price (which was the point being made by the other poster). However price is not my only reason; I only molest vehicles that are of no real historical or car-social significance. I realize a statement like that hurts those that feel otherwise about these cars (for which I apologize), but the overall automotive industry as a whole seems to agree with me. There are plenty of vehicles that have significantly more importance to the industry, and those should be preserved. However there are also plenty of vehicles that do not, and those are the ones that can be molested. Not every car ever made needs to be protected in its original state, as the multi billion dollar a year automotive aftermarket industry shows. And it must be said, not keeping a car factory stock original is not necessarily "run into the ground, used up and thrown away". The fact that my cars are major projects that, in addition to being heavily modified/customized, are brought up to excellent condition and kept on the road is in fact preserving the model...just not in the same form as others might want to see.

I am not defending what I do to or how I view the X1/9. Nor am I criticizing those that see it differently; I highly respect the views of others. Please, I do not intend to be argumentative or offend anyone in any way. I'm merely stating my opinion as to why I don't see the X as a high dollar car, nor wish to see it become one.
 
Dr.Jeff said:
The current rise in Porsche 914 values is primarily a factor of the brand name and the market prices for other models from that manufacturer. For decades the 914 was not even considered to be a Porsche and certainly not respected by the Porsche crowd. However as 911's became unobtainable, buyers wanting a "Porsche" were forced to look at less expensive models (including 924's, 944's, 928's, etc). As those became more sought after, their prices began to rise. For the market to support the same prices for a X, there would need to be the same demand for the brand. Fiats just do not (and I doubt ever will) be as desired as Porsches. Therefore I do not see X's becoming the same value as 914's. Another point that might be a factor in market values between Porsches and Fiat could be quality, but that gets into a sensitive topic here so I won't go any further with it.
Another way to look at this might be the difference between Fiat values and Ferrari values. It could be argued they are related and pretty much the same bones, but their values will never be the same mainly due to the difference in brand name recognition (or lack thereof).

As one of the idiots that molests X1/9s, I do so in part due to the low price (which was the point being made by the other poster). However price is not my only reason; I only molest vehicles that are of no real historical or car-social significance. I realize a statement like that hurts those that feel otherwise about these cars (for which I apologize), but the overall automotive industry as a whole seems to agree with me. There are plenty of vehicles that have significantly more importance to the industry, and those should be preserved. However there are also plenty of vehicles that do not, and those are the ones that can be molested. Not every car ever made needs to be protected in its original state, as the multi billion dollar a year automotive aftermarket industry shows. And it must be said, not keeping a car factory stock original is not necessarily "run into the ground, used up and thrown away". The fact that my cars are major projects that, in addition to being heavily modified/customized, are brought up to excellent condition and kept on the road is in fact preserving the model...just not in the same form as others might want to see.

I am not defending what I do to or how I view the X1/9. Nor am I criticizing those that see it differently; I highly respect the views of others. Please, I do not intend to be argumentative or offend anyone in any way. I'm merely stating my opinion as to why I don't see the X as a high dollar car, nor wish to see it become one.
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There is a lot to unpack here, but I agree with nearly all of it.

The price on all things air-cooled (911, 356 models anyway) Porsche pushed the "throwaway" and "unloved" front-engined and water-cooled Porsches up in value. This, in-turn, pushed the "un-Porsche" 914 up in value.

There is really not such upward pressure on the classic Fiats in the States, save for the Dino, which, indirectly, is pushed up by the well-known 246/Ferrari ties all enthusiasts know of.

I look at it this way, and this may be controversial: I believe many classic cars are overpriced due to speculators (which I am fine with existing---just stating what I view as a fact. Media like "Barn Find Hunter" "Barrett-Jackson" "Wheeler Dealers" etc.) driving the prices on many classics up----namely the most popular ones.

There are those classic cars, which are still kind of "undiscovered", or "less hyped up"---yet are really great cars, from what I gather. Many of these are still under 10k for solid, driver-level examples. Some examples would be Opel GTs, MGBs, Midgets, Spitfires, 850 Spiders, 124 Spiders, Kharman Ghias, Beetles, some Alfas...and the Fiat X 1/9.

Everyone has a dream car, or cars, that tick the right boxes of style, heritage, handling, braking, acceleration, audio aural bliss, shift quality, attainability, etc.

All the obvious ones: big block Corvettes, XKEs, XK120s, MB SLs, M3s, Big Healeys, 240Zs, TR6s, are (in many cases) all above the average Joe's ability to attain.

With the X 1/9, where else, can you get an Italian, mid-engined, RWD sports car, with (mostly complete) parts availability, styled by one of the greatest automotive stylists of the 20th Century, Gandini?

Do I see X 1/9s getting pricier? Yes, actually. I have watched them steadily appreciate, and I am not referring to basket cases, but cars that are solid, complete, well-sorted, and very presentable. These are the ones I see going up. 5-6 years ago, people laughed at me when I said '71-74 MG Midgets would follow Bugeye Sprites, and rise in value. They have. Good ones now are fetching very tidy sums, whereas before, they were 1-3k, at most. Is this inflation? Is this hype? I don't know. Perhaps a little of both?

Will my numbers-matching RWA MG Midget ever be worth Ferrari 308 Money? Will an X 1/9? I won't hold my breath.

I don't buy to sell. I buy to enjoy. I buy to drive. I buy to keep.

That's just me.
 
One car transaction doesn't make a market. But I think that car will do very well at that auction because it's price is so trivial in that crowd they will lose inhibition and get into a bid war. I can't wait to see where it ends up but I'd guess north of $30,000. People in that audience are bidding $MILLIONS for some of those cars. If they miss out on the LM or Dino they were set on at least bring home a little '74 Fiat as a consolation.

Also, I would add another to Dan's list of reasons X1/9's would be better off if worth more:
  • So insurance companies can't TOTAL an X1/9 for a scratch in the clear coat.
 
Cratecruncher said:
One car transaction doesn't make a market. But I think that car will do very well at that auction because it's price is so trivial in that crowd they will lose inhibition and get into a bid war. I can't wait to see where it ends up but I'd guess north of $30,000. People in that audience are bidding $MILLIONS for some of those cars. If they miss out on the LM or Dino they were set on at least bring home a little '74 Fiat as a consolation.

Also, I would add another to Dan's list of reasons X1/9's would be better off if worth more:
  • So insurance companies can't TOTAL an X1/9 for a scratch in the clear coat.
Click to expand...

Well said.

I also would like several "stock" or "sympathetically-modified" examples to continue to exist. I would hope not to be condemned in museums or as trailer queens.

I cannot wait to see what this car goes for.
 
Cratecruncher said:
One car transaction doesn't make a market. But I think that car will do very well at that auction because it's price is so trivial in that crowd they will lose inhibition and get into a bid war. I can't wait to see where it ends up but I'd guess north of $30,000. People in that audience are bidding $MILLIONS for some of those cars. If they miss out on the LM or Dino they were set on at least bring home a little '74 Fiat as a consolation.
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So true about the buyers at these particular events. That is what the auction companies are preying on.
One thing I've always believed is the selling price of a particular object does not necessarily reflect its true worth or actual value. Market prices for all classic/vintage vehicles has risen in recent years. A lot to do with the baby boomers reaching retirement and having the disposable cash to buy things they admired earlier if life. The classic/vintage car hobby has grown in general, and with that all prices will rise. But for a particular example to increase more than the general market, it must have something to drive it there. That could be many things. I find it interesting how the muscle car crowd (another example, along with Harleys, of the baby boomer influence) drove the prices up on certain desired models to the point they could no longer afford them. So they then shifted their attention to the next generation of that model. For example the first gen Camaro, vs the later (extremely ugly) generations that are now getting higher prices. This is something of a parallel to the Porsche examples described earlier, however in this case it has to do more with the model name rather than a manufacturer name. Perhaps an analogy might be if the '74 X1/9 (USA market specific) became singularly desirable and prices escalated beyond reason, then maybe the later Bertone models of X1/9 might eventually follow suit. But somehow I don't see there being enough of a following for X's like there has been for Camaros though.
 
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