I Hate, Hate, Hate 'modern' cars🤬

Lowtechprime

Lowtechprime

Retro Grouch
The only car of the 6 we own that needs to be smogged is my Wife's '99 BMW Z3 M Coupe... The recommended fuel for them is 91 octane, which we have always used. However, BMW didn't trust that you wouldn't put 89 in it, so they programmed them for 89 so they wouldn't detonate... A few weeks back, I had done a long awaited re-flash of the computer to reprogram it to only expect 91 fuel... Raises the hp, torque, rev limit, and removes the top speed limiter.... Also, the milage was slightly improved.. Unfortunately, 3 days later I got the notification from the DMV that it will have to smogged this year for registration 😡. When you first re-flash, the device copies your original software so you can return it to the original setup. The literature that came with the reprogram device said there was a limit to how many times the computer can be reprogrammed (although they don't say how many times that is, and an internet search has provided no answers). Since I had just done it, I didn't want to de-flash if I didn't have to, and it isn't technically a 'performance' tune, just taking advantage of the proper fuel, I decided to risk it and just test it as is hoping it would pass. Sadly, it failed, but only by 3 points on the hydrocarbons.. That could be the Flash, or just that there are 151,000 miles on it, or the cats weren't
hot enough because the tech let it sit for like 10 minutes while he entered who knows what in his computer... The BMW's notoriously fail if the cat's cool off... We had done a major service on it not long ago, so there was nothing to really freshen up, so I decided to return the computer to stock and use my free retest to try again.. That was Saturday, they were closed on Sunday, so since I had Monday off, I re-flashed in the morning and took it to retest later that day. This time it passed, but only just by 2 points on the hydrocarbons, still however, no certificate because since I reprogrammed the computer it reset the OBD, there was not enough miles on it to test currently...🤬 (even though they had tested the OBD a day earlier) I did not know that was a thing... That was my free retest... So now, I have to drive it an indeterminate number of miles (I'm aiming for 100) and pay again for another retest..😡 Since it barely passed last time, I'm running a bottle of something called 'CataClean' through it as I put the miles on it... Give me my pre-1975, carbureted cars all day long, any day of the week.... This is not worth any imagined 'advantage' to a modern car.... How's that for a rant? Just had to vent, I feel slightly better now!😁
 
I feel your pain. But some of your issues sound as if they possibly had nothing to do with it being a "modern" car? As you stated, it might be due to the mileage and/or cat condition. Or perhaps fuel quality (a real issue in America). Or even test variance; I've seen the same tech repeat the same test using the same equipment, one immediately following the first, and get very different results. So one or two points difference isn't significant. For that matter, blame the government rules and regulations overall. However I still completely agree with you - I also prefer vintage cars. With one exception....when I travel on trips out of town the comfort, conveniences, and reliability of a modern car are nice. But then again, I'm old. :D
 
Yes, all those things you say are possibly true, but if a car has no cats, computer, or doesn't have to be tested, none of these problems exist.... 😁 It's definitely a racket... I had an 81 Spider with a Buick 4.3 V6 in it that I brought when I moved here from Fla... It passed tailpipe emissions, but of course failed visual inspection... If they were interested in keeping the air clean, emissions should be all that matters, but it's a money maker for the State so.... I had to sell that car to someone out of state because I just couldn't register it here... Shame really, a 349Hp spider was a lot of fun ..
 
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Much a BMW engine management issue rather than a "modern car" issue.
For comparison, SAAB tronic engine management has none of these BMW issues with detonation sensing, detonation control or any of that.

SAAB uses ionic in cylinder detonation detection or no "sonic" detection of detonation which would be far too late to stop engine melt down and explosion. Makes no difference in typical running or emissions if 86 to over 100 octane fuel is used. For lower octane the SAAB tronic simply dials down the boost, timing, mixture and more to make it work at the trade off of lower power. Apply over 100 octane fuel the SAAB tronic simply dials everything up for more power. Since the ionic detonation sensing happens per cycle, per cylinder, if detonation is sensed in a cylinder or cylinders per cycle, the spark plug does not fire and the ECU alters ignition timing, and all to make the gasoline octane work. This is why SAAB ignitions were the first to have an ignition cassette with one ignition coil per spark plug. It is also why SAAB tronic turbo engines can produce 500bhp / 500 lb/ft as delivered with no significant modifications other than bigger turbo, bigger intercooler and more cooling system capacity. This is also why SAAB B204/B234 turbo engines have found their way into BMWs, Opels, RX8, MX-5 and a long list of other non-SAAB chassis.

~Until GM got total control of SAAB.. then it all went down the drain.

SAAB tronic has been "open source code" (the SAAB tronic source code and how Trionic works became public domain) for many years now. This allows engine tweakers to alter engine management on the fly as needed, as many times as needed. Companies like BMW would never do this. BMW and other companies did not choose to license ionic detonation sensing and all related due to cost.. They did detonation sensing other ways that were simply not as good.

~Do check the rear sub frame and related for cracks on the BMW M3 as this is known and common problem that was designed in to the M3 chassis. Also, check for water in the electronics, another BMW issue.



Bernice
 
Thanks for that info! it's a Z3 M, not an M3, but these also have issues in the rear as the chassis was designed for the 4 cylinder, not the M 6cylinder, with an LSD attached to 9" Wheels... I have already reinforced the rear, and I had to do a bunch of seam welding on the front structure after it had popped a bunch of spot welds.... It's been fine ever since though, about 6 years since those mods, no further cracks or welds popping.. To be honest, the Z3 M Coupe isn't really all that modern. It's a '99, no keyless entry, non adjustable steering wheel, cassette player, non computerized ABS...... What year was that Saab management from? It would have to go in some other car because Saab, like Volvo have made nearly no attractive cars in their entire history.... The Swede's are a very pleasant people, but they do not make sexy cars....
Incidentally, this is only the latest, most current reason that I hate modern cars... There is a long list of grievences, from bland homogenised styling to no driver visability, to no road feel, too many plastic critical parts, Blinding tail lights, just a sampling........ It's a comprehensive list!👿
 
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My 2017 GTI is perfect and I have felt no need to make any mods to it, although I would like to get some Weather Tec floor mats for it.

When my 1978 124 spider needed emissions testing every two years I had to spend the day removing the twin IDFs and installing the stock 32ADF back on. I had to reinstall the air pump and all it's plumbing. Then had to reset the ignition timing from 10 degrees back to 0. The car would wheeze it's way to the inspection station, pass and then wheeze home where I converted it all back to performance mode the next day. No computers, no "reflash", nothing more sophisticated than a timing light to do the job.

I totally get your rant and hope it helped.
 
Lowtechprime said:
Thanks for that info! it's a Z3 M, not an M3, but these also have issues in the rear as the chassis was designed for the 4 cylinder, not the M 6cylinder, with an LSD attached to 9" Wheels... I have already reinforced the rear, and I had to do a bunch of seam welding on the front structure after it had popped a bunch of spot welds.... It's been fine ever since though, about 6 years since those mods, no further cracks or welds popping.. To be honest, the Z3 M Coupe isn't really all that modern. It's a '99, no keyless entry, non adjustable steering wheel, cassette player, non computerized ABS...... What year was that Saab management from? It would have to go in some other car because Saab, like Volvo have made nearly no attractive cars in their entire history.... The Swede's are a very pleasant people, but they do not make sexy cars....
Incidentally, this is only the latest, most current reason that I hate modern cars... There is a long list of grievences, from bland homogenised styling to no driver visability, to no road feel, too many plastic critical parts, Blinding tail lights, just a sampling........ It's a comprehensive list!👿
Click to expand...

Makes zilch difference if the chassis is designed for a "4 cylinder or 6 cylinder" as number of cylinders does NOT fix the power output of any given motor.. Problem with the Z3 and other BMW chassis from the era and series.. basic mechanical design for these structural crack and failures. There is no excuse for inept and poor mechanical design. As for superior "German" engineering for cars of that era... simply not true.
The German moto industry went for profitability.. If you're knowledgeable about BMWs from that era, you'll know about the extended list of fatal problems with BMWs in general. Not just BMW, Porsche's M96/M97 engine disasters, electronics issues and more. AUDI has "strange" engine failures, Mercedes has the eco idea of using wiring insulation that dissolved with the passage of time under the guise of eco-friendly.. and more... This idea-belief of superior German engineering needs to die with the hard reality of truth revealed. They are in modern times, designed and produced with the goal of lasting 3-5 years before being disposed of or recycled...

Given this discussion has appeared on Xweb, in comparison the x1/9 has none of these structural and mechanical design problems.. and there is no issues with Greatly increasing the power to the road with the X1/9 chassis with no significant modifications to the stock chassis.. why ?
Yet, the x1/9 remains to this day as an undesirable Fiat... of no significance.

First year for SAAB tronic, 1991 or late 1990's. SAAB patented many of these inventions related to engine management leaving the others to either license the technology or wait until the Patents ran out.. which is what happened and why so many "modern cars" use engine management ideas and tech invented by SAAB today.. and why there are so many turbo petro production car engines in modern times...

As for moto visuals.. it's all relative. If you're drawn to the visuals of the Z3, simply rip out the BMW problem lump, replace it with a SAAB B204/B234 or more reliable moto (including a number of Japanese choices from Honda to Toyota) in anything from stock to greatly up rated state of tune.. This will not be the first time a SAAB turbo motor was installed into a BMW.. One more significant item.. uprated SAAB B204/B234 turbo motors are famous for digesting gear boxes and related (most any common moto variety) with not a lot more than a BurP.. This happens due to the amount of torque they can produce under boost. It's not hp alone that causes gear box failures, it is torque and why real race gear boxes are rated for torque not just hp..

Oh, keep in mind Fiat produced over 3 million Lampredi twin cam engines.. and it is the same design that won 6 WRC titles and many more.
Only the BMW M10 > M12/M13 four cylinder was as similar to the Lampredi Twin cam...


Bernice
 
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I will agree that 'German Engineering ' has an inflated, not necessarily deserved reputation, but our BMW has been relatively trouble free.... We have owned it for about 17 years, just had those chassis issues which were easily addressed. I have also over the years replaced a lot of the critical parts that were made out of plastic with metal alternatives, master cylinders, thermostat housing, clutch pedal... Plus uprated suspension... we've never had an issue with the motor.. I know that 4 vs 6 cylinders is not necessarily about power, but in this case it is. The 4 cylinder Z3 is rated at 140 HP, the 6 cylinder M motor is 320 HP, and 350 torque, that is a big difference, that plus the much wider stance means that the chassis sees a good deal more stress than the standard Z3... Just the fact that it has to be smogged at all is really the source of my frustration with it.. That also precludes any kind of engine swap, I would never be able to register it here. It is why I usually stick with pre '75 year cars, then I can do whatever I want with them. Cars today are far too heavy, even a 'small' car like a new Mini weighs 3000 lbs... A lighter car needs less power to go fast, stop easier, and handle with less drama... Plus I just like car design from that era. Car design nowadays is fairly bland, there are always exceptions of course, but overall, nothing I would want to own... I also agree on the virtues of the X 1/9, and it's undeserved, generally negative reputation. Apart from some questionable wiring decisions, and rust prevention, I find Fiats of that era to be generally well engineered, and I'm a big fan of the Fiat SOHC in carbureted form... That's why I don't agree with swapping a 'modern' plastic manifolded, fuel injected, computer controlled, turbocharged nightmare 🤮, into an X 1/9, or a 128 in my case... For a car that size and weight, there's nothing wrong with that Fiat powerplant, plus it sounds better at full song than any of those would be donors!😁
 
It's a long story but due to covid and my state shutting down I have a car registered there. You just open up an LLC in your name and register the car to it. Hagerty is ok with it and so is my state but I live in Tennessee. I may register here but it is a permanent tag so I am not in a hurry. Thankfully we don't have inspection.
Sorry it's such a pain in your state. Good luck.
 
Lowtechprime said:
Apart from some questionable wiring decisions, and rust prevention, I find Fiats of that era to be generally well engineered, and I'm a big fan of the Fiat SOHC in carbureted form... That's why I don't agree with swapping a 'modern' plastic manifolded, fuel injected, computer controlled, turbocharged nightmare 🤮, into an X 1/9, or a 128 in my case... For a car that size and weight, there's nothing wrong with that Fiat powerplant, plus it sounds better at full song than any of those would be donors!😁
Click to expand...
Wiring issues with the exxe is WAY over blown. Yes, there are a few Ooops like the brown wire roasting in plastic connectors. Overall, there are few electrical issues with the exxe.. Specially the later ones (post 1980) with Bosch FI. The problem electrical areas are well known. Once they are properly addressed, there are no more electrical issues with the exxe than any other car from that era.. and in many ways, far better than most. Keep in mind Bertone used Bosch electrical in the late EFI versions, a choice made by the folks at Bertone..

All those plastic bits on "modern" engines is precisely why you're not gonna run nee 40psi of turbo boost as is commonly done on SAAB turbo engines by tweaker folks.. They use the stock cast aluminum manifolds and stock exhaust (common) with a HUGE turbo... as for the Honda K series conversion on the exxe.. it works good.. History to this, many years ago, the idea of installing a then new Honda K series into the exxe was floated around.. Plenty of "not kosher" due to putting a non-italian power train into an Italian car.. Did not agree with this at all as the Honda K series is more "Italian" than most would know or believe.. Two exxe fans made this conversion... eventually Matt decided to do the same and produce a kit.. with about 200Whp and under 2000 pounds in the exxe chassis, is about proper for what the exxe could have been when it was introduced in 1973..


Bernice
 
I've heard before that Montana is one of the easiest states to deal with and has some very relaxed rules. There are services that will set it up for you in Montana, for a fee. But to me something like that would be a very last resort. Usually there are other ways around things that are less involved.
 
On the topic of turbo engines..
The short history of SAAB tronic and eventually why turbo charged petro motors have become common & reliable in modern times.
Exception being, those few moto companies that persist in refusing to apply this proven engine management system (BMW and...)

eeuroparts.com

Tech Corner: SAAB Trionic and Ionization Sensing – eEuroparts

Saab Trionic is an engine management system that uses ion sensing, a technology that detects fuel burn data and adjusts trim based on spark gap resistance
eeuroparts.com eeuroparts.com

~When it comes to engine part management, there are several ways to cook the goose. When the IC engine was first produced, several huge hurdles had to be overcome just to get it running right. The science behind using venturi currents to feed fuel based on airflow (how carburetor parts works) was a huge breakthrough, and is still used today as a simple and effective device to control how an engine works. As time progressed, we realized that the more control we had, the better our engines would run. The biggest hurdle to overcome was how to provide the best performance, without allowing the air/fuel mixture from pre-detonating, or knocking.

A big moment happened when Saab parts like the knock sensors began to be installed on Saab engines. However far from sentient, this allowed our Saab to know when the timing is too far advanced past top dead center and pre-detonation is occurring before the spark plugs go off. The computer could use this data to retard timing, reigning in the performance but with it, damaging pinging.

How Ionization Sensing Works in Saab Engines​

When engineers realized they could go further, the gears at SAAB were turning. As early as the mid 80’s, the technology that Saab Trionic is built on was being developed, a system that wins the engine management 1-up game handily. Here’s why:

Saab Trionic PartsThe knock sensor cannot tell what cylinder is knocking. When it registers a knock, it signals to retard timing and the entire engine is affected. Because of the way consumer grade engines work, no two combustion cycles will be the same. The Saab performance part for Saab engine management, the Trionic does things fundamentally differently. In combination with a critical component called a Direct Ignition Cassette(oh, you’ve heard of it?), the computer is able to very precisely control everything that is going on with each individual cylinder and Saab engine parts such as the spark plugs. The critical difference from a knock sensor is the system’s ability to detect the ionization in each cylinder and relay that info back to the computer individually.

To do this, the computer uses the DIC to send a signal between the Saab electrical partssuch as the spark plug electrodes to measure the electrical resistance of the air in between. Depending on how well the flame envelope is burned, and what is left over after the main combustion, the computer can deduce a lot. It’s like the DIC is telling the ECU “On the sensing phase of that last firing in cylinder number 3, I got 734.2 ohms, and on this one I got 729.8 ohms” Then the ECU can return with, “I’d prefer a range in the 600s, for the next combustion I will retard timing by .5 deg, let’s see where that gets us”*.

This happens many times a second, for almost the entire time the engine is running. This way, no matter what quality or octane fuel you use, no matter the altitude, humidity, or temperature of air…. the system will always be able to dial in exactly the turbo pressure, spark timing, and fuel injection timing.

The only time that this active timing doesn’t take place is when you just start the engine. Upon initial startup on a Trionic engine, all Saab engine parts, including the spark plugs are firing at the same time, using a much older process called “wasted spark“. That just means on cylinders that aren’t combusting (exhaust stroke), the spark is ‘wasted’. During this phase, Saab Trionic is getting its bearings. Soon after, the process switches to sequential ignition and the process above starts. The most intricate Saab parts; the fuel injection system and turbo pressure are also controlled with this information, hence TRIonic, but that is a discussion for later. Additionally, when the engine is shut off, the Saab engine management computer sends a hefty dose of high powered spark across all the plugs for a second or two in Trionic 5 cars. This cleans the Saabs electric current systems plugs to prepare for the next cold start.

~And yes, SAAB tronic has been transplanted into non-SAAB petro engines, this is possible due to the open source firmware which allows customization to each application.

Bernice
 
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