insane medical costs

Sure

I was saying "using gov't as single largest buyer of HC products, they can control costs, and being Gov't, they have no profit motive." The manufacturers would still have profit motive.

We've seen how well the federal government (e.g., Medicare) has "motivated" other areas of healthcare. That reminds me... that's another downside to ObamaCare... there will be a shortage of MD's.
 
Profit motive to 'deny' care is the trick here... I don't mind paying for something and getting something... I don't mind paying a little more sometimes if its for something I really want, or where I think paying more gets me better quality...

It's paying for something and KNOWING that they are driven to give me the absolute least amount of 'product' as they can... :mad2: And in this case it's the insurance companies.. not the docs, not the hospitals... not even the pharmacuetical industry.. (well, a little!) It's the freaking insurance companies that would simply love it if we'd paid them and they provided no service. That's their ultimate goal.
 
Profit motive to 'deny' care is the trick here... I don't mind paying for something and getting something... I don't mind paying a little more sometimes if its for something I really want, or where I think paying more gets me better quality...

It's paying for something and KNOWING that they are driven to give me the absolute least amount of 'product' as they can... :mad2: And in this case it's the insurance companies.. not the docs, not the hospitals... not even the pharmacuetical industry.. (well, a little!) It's the freaking insurance companies that would simply love it if we'd paid them and they provided no service. That's their ultimate goal.

That's a huge problem with health care today. Since most insurance plans more closely resemble pre-paid health care than actual insurance the doctors are actually working for the insurance companies rather than the patient. I'm not convinced having the doctors work for the government instead is an improvement. I would like to see massive deregulation of the health insurance industry so they could sell any kind of plan they want to anyone they want. That way there would be far more choices and many more companies would get into the business and provide competition. Right now dealing with health insurance companies is like dealing with the DMV. You would never know they are a private company competing for your business. They act like you should consider yourself lucky they are willing to do business with you.
 
Healthcare is very jacked up... right now you have doctors often making decisions to not do a certain test or proceedure, because they know the insurance company is going to drag feet or just not pay for it... and they'll end up eating it.

But at the same time, imagine how crazy and screwed it would be if doctors could do freaking everything they wanted to pad the bill? Hard to believe the dude with the house on the lake and 3 new BMW"s in the 4 car garage wouldn't be a little bit driven to 'overcharge' you just a little.
 
No, not extreme...

at all if the context is solving the problem for the end user and ultimate payer. In the end we will either go your way or go bankrupt. The free market faithful will cry ou against this but that is religion and not economics. I absolutely agree with taking profit out of the picture and with it the states rights thing too. States are just an artificial entity-big deal, none of them do such a bang up job that we should lose sleep over their diminished responsibilities.

But more to the point. Back prior to the Health Reform, the health insurance industry was in thrall to Wall Street (they still are) like everyone else and in this way; there is a standard way to express the portion of each premium dollar paid that actually goes to direct patient care, it is called the 'medical loss ratio' The name is telling because it identifies this ratio for discussion purposes but also calls it what it really is to the insurer-that is to say they see anything spent on patient care as a loss. And reasonably so because they are all mostly public traded companies where the free market in equities rewards those companies with the best 'medical loss ratios', meaning they spend the least on medical care and the most on overhead and, more important, profit. Now, Wall Street punishes those companies who do not keep up. If their loss ratio is too high then dollars flow to competitors. Obvious and true. When Bill Clinton took office the average medical loss ratio was 90% , when Obama took office it was 77% and headed down. The actual provision of care was rising and so how were the insurers to keep up the high margin? Partially by rationing of care, partially by negotiating costs and mainly by increasing premiums faster than actual costs. That way they could not only maintain their ratios but actually better them. Because insurers represent virtual monopolies, duopolies or oligoplies in most states and are sequestered by states they have little resistance to ever increasing premiums.
The health reform pegged the medical loss ratio at between 80-85% ( I don't know what the range is about) but it is still there as an inherent part of the equation even when established by law it is still a ratio and all that is likely to happen is that premiums will still increase apace with costs and there will be greater incentive to increase costs which will put more absolute dollars in the insurers pocket. And what does the patient get? Hard to say, certainly no inherent pressure to contain costs because if you as the insurer is only ever going to get 15% then you sure as hell want to get 15% of the biggest pie you can arrange. Better care? Why would you when the whole enterprise is about profit? The wise insurer would find ways of rolling part of the medical loss into his own pocket, which I am sure they are trying to do as we type.
 
Good grief

"States are just an artificial entity-big deal..."

So far afield from our founding principles that it boggles the mind...
 
Since we haven't addressed the questions proposed, I will repost them:

Kevin B (Asheville said:
So the question is:

- How is America's middle class supposed to deal with escalating medical care costs, diminishing insurance coverage, and politicians that will not stand up for the needs of the middle class, in todays economy?

AND

- Is it the role of the US Gov't to control costs withing its borders which are threatening the stability of the american family?
 
Healthcare is very jacked up... right now you have doctors often making decisions to not do a certain test or proceedure, because they know the insurance company is going to drag feet or just not pay for it... and they'll end up eating it.

But at the same time, imagine how crazy and screwed it would be if doctors could do freaking everything they wanted to pad the bill? Hard to believe the dude with the house on the lake and 3 new BMW"s in the 4 car garage wouldn't be a little bit driven to 'overcharge' you just a little.

There are a lot of doctors. In a free market there is healthy competition. I suspect in true free market doctors would not make as much money and there would be more of them. I know in certain parts of the health care industry were insurance isn't as big a factor things are different and the doctors don't just charge whatever they want because the doctor down the road will get their patients if they do.

Nationalized health care will reduce quality, availability, innovation and may not even reduce cost. On top of that if the US goes to a nationalized health care system it will likely seriously damage the health care systems in other countries because we subsidize them by paying higher costs that offset the lower profits companies make selling to those countries. I'm not saying that's a reason not to do it but it is true that those countries are able to keep costs lower because we pay higher prices. The (relatively) free market in the US partially props up the socialized systems in other countries provides them with the innovation and cutting edge medicine while we end up paying for it. It's not really fair but if we go the way of the rest of the world that innovation is likely to go away so nobody gets it at any price.

At any rate it doesn't really matter because this country is too broke to go to a nationalized health care system any time soon. The entitlements we already have are going to collapse as it is.
 
So what?

50 states instead of 13 is a ways away too. Some with 1 million some with 36 million. Some of them not even contiguous.
Founding principles-my god what tripe. One of our founding principles was that owning another human being was OK but we darn sure want get some representation for him (3/5) in Congress just so as to bolster Southern legislative power. And then there is the electoral college and the disproportinate representation in the Senate so that now Nebraska can shift as much weight as California.And how about no direct election of those Senators. All really good ideas.
 
50 states instead of 13 is a ways away too. Some with 1 million some with 36 million. Some of them not even contiguous.
Founding principles-my god what tripe. One of our founding principles was that owning another human being was OK but we darn sure want get some representation for him (3/5) in Congress just so as to bolster Southern legislative power. And then there is the electoral college and the disproportinate representation in the Senate so that now Nebraska can shift as much weight as California.And how about no direct election of those Senators. All really good ideas.

I think it's unacceptable for the government to be in the health care business period. This has nothing to do with founding principles or the Constitution and everything to do with the fact that I think it's a really bad idea.

Slavery was not a founding principle. It was a highly controversial issue and opposed by many founders. There were some unfortunate compromises made over slavery and the country paid a terrible price for it.

The Senate represented the states not the people. The state legislatures elected the Senators not the people. The House of Representatives represented the people. That changed with 17th amendment so now the Senate doesn't really work the way it is supposed to. The electoral collage works exactly like it's supposed making sure a candidate has to have fairly broad nation wide support. I think it's a fairly good idea.

However, what the founders thought is pretty irrelevant because they are dead and have been for 200 years. The Constitution has been changed numerous times (through amendments and the courts) since then and is becoming irrelevant as well. I'd rather argue my idea of the proper role of government based on what I think now rather than what a bunch of guys who often disagreed with each other thought 200 years ago.
 
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The electoral college works against...

the popular selection of the President. That is why a president can be elected with a minority of the popular vote. And it is why our politics has come down to being leveraged by 'swing states'

The Senate representation with the original 13 states might have made sense but in the context of radical differences in size of populations and economic clout it sure doesn't anymore. It's anti democratic and so is the electoral college. Now I will concede that in terms of the founders that is probably OK, they were not too hot and popular democracy and the Constittution as originally wriitten is a testament to their ambivalence about rule by the people. The House of Representatives was the sole body directly elected by the people (that meaning white males of a certain minimum class).

Why is the Constitution always treated like holy writ? It is a political and politically expedient document start to finish. Read it every week for awhile and it begins to dawn on you that there isn't anything magical about it at all. It's a hotch potch-and that's fine I guess, no product of human politics is ever anything else.

As far as health care, it's about health care not about preserving the sanctity of states privelge or the free market or anything else.Whatever actually works, but they haven't got there yet.
 
It's who you poll and how you ask the questions

you have better resources, or just wanna post, but have nothing of substance?

The CBS poll was from 2009 and they polled (their sampling was) 38% registered Democrats, 38% registered Independents and 24% registered Republicans. They are not known to use equal components in their polling.

The ABC polling data you provided was so dated (2003) that you couldn't pull up the actual poll, which normally shows sampling method (let's you see if skewed), or results. You couldn't even see the questions and the actual verbiage used normally has a great bearing on results.

The NYT poll was also from 2009. While other polls - those that can be fairly described as non-partisan - have Democrats and Republicans roughly even in party identification, the New York Times polling methodology normally gives Democrats a 10-percentage point edge. Also, 20 percent of those questioned usually have a union member in their household and 25 percent have a government employee. Those are considerably higher percentages of union members and government workers than actually exist in the country. And they don't provide their sampling methodology, which seems to suggest they have something to hide.

I think it might be more relative to see what people think now that ObamaCare is law and I do have several other polls to cite that aren't skewed but - meh - why bother, you seem to have made your decision.
 
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The reason I think the state should regulate the health market is because I think they would do a better job and if they don't it's easier to move to another state that does rather than to another country. Also the states have to balance their budgets making it less likely they will go off on some quixotic health care adventure like the Federal government is likely to do.

Many of the founders didn't expect the constitution to last much more than a generation. They fully expected it to be changed or replaced. The fact that the constitution is viewed as untouchable actually undermines our system of government. Rather than changing the constitution through the legitimate framework of the government it is undermined by the courts rendering it somewhat irrelevant.

Our system of government was designed to bring progress to a near standstill in order to protect liberty. That works okay until things get bad and something needs to be done to fix it. This is why I firmly believe there is no fixing it and the US government will suffer a collapse that could look a lot like the Soviet collapse. What happens after that largely depends on who's in power when the SHTF.
 
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