Lowering X Any problems?
- Thread starter bpimm
- Start date
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
Lowering for "looks" alone is not a good idea. 2" is doable, but there could easily be road clearance problems.
What spring rates/damper rates?
Regardless, at 2", you'll need to adjust the camber and static toe. Front castor, change the length of the radius rod. Front bump steer can be adjusted by altering the height of the ball joints at the steering arm. Ackerman can be reduced by moving the steering rack forward...
What about wheels and tires? The entire chassis works as a system and each part must work together as a whole if ideal results are the goal.
What do you expect from this chassis and what will it be used for?
Bernice
What spring rates/damper rates?
Regardless, at 2", you'll need to adjust the camber and static toe. Front castor, change the length of the radius rod. Front bump steer can be adjusted by altering the height of the ball joints at the steering arm. Ackerman can be reduced by moving the steering rack forward...
What about wheels and tires? The entire chassis works as a system and each part must work together as a whole if ideal results are the goal.
What do you expect from this chassis and what will it be used for?
Bernice
Steve Hoelscher
True Classic
Excessive Lowering
Well, my first question is why?
From there, as Bernice noted, there are issues.
2 inches is a lot. From the stock ride height 2" will have you past the transition to the negative side of the camber curve. Especially in the rear. Also, you are well into the toe-out side of the front bumpsteer curve.
Then there is the bump travel issue. 2" will have you into the stock bumpstops unless you trim/remove them. And removing them will have you bottoming the rear pretty hard.
Well, my first question is why?
From there, as Bernice noted, there are issues.
2 inches is a lot. From the stock ride height 2" will have you past the transition to the negative side of the camber curve. Especially in the rear. Also, you are well into the toe-out side of the front bumpsteer curve.
Then there is the bump travel issue. 2" will have you into the stock bumpstops unless you trim/remove them. And removing them will have you bottoming the rear pretty hard.
bpimm
Brian Pimm
It's not for looks alone, Looks are always a part of the equation, I would error on the higher side to keep it looking right. The driving force is we're going to autox this car next season.
7K front 9K rear Ksport coilovers.
The coilovers have camber plates at all 4 corners plus they have a slotted top bolt hole at the upright for more camber adjustment, not sure if I like that feature without a eccentric bolt, I'll see if they hold. Realignment is a given.
Wheels are 15X6.5 wrapped in Yokohama S.drives in 195 50 15, Autox tires are Toyo R888 in 205 50 15. Agreed that the whole system has to work together.
Autox / weekend toy, I am shooting for 1.1 to 1.15G on the R888's, I'm not that familiar with this chassis so this will be a learning experience for me.
Steve Hoelscher said:
Even on the 1980 where the front is an inch higher than the rear, If I end up on the negative side of the camber curve I can dial in some extra static camber and add sway bars if needed to limit body roll but I'm not expecting to much roll with these spring rates. How bad is the front bumpsteer curve on this, suspension? I know on my subie it's pretty bad and I don't want this car to be a mandatory 2 hand car on bumpy roads, Whiteline has a kit to fix the subie does anyone make alternate ball joints/tierod ends for the X?
Steve Hoelscher said:
Taken care of with the coilovers.
Any advise for setting up an X for autox is welcomed.
Thanks
Brian
racerx
Autoxer
HI Steve H
Did you notice he mentioned possibly adding sway bars and did not mention what spring rate's he's running? Please school him on spring rate's and how and why heaver springs shoud be going on the front and the advantages to running No sway bars.
Brian Hi welcome to the group Sube's are fun I owned an 02 WRX wagon I run a few autoxs events with it my X1/9 is faster and way more fun at autox.
I've got an 82 X1/9 it's got 600 lbs springs 2.5 negative camber 1/8th inch total tow out on the front .450 lbs 2.0 negative camber 1/8th total tow on the rear. no sway bars.It rides about 1 inch lower all the way around.I have not made any changes to the bump steer or the caster my feeling on caster and bump steer is my car works really good right now and until I get to be a good enough drive I'm not going to worry about it.
your talking about running 15 inch wheels with Toyo R888 205/50-15 those tires are 23.1 inches tall. way to tall for autox for off the line and coming out of corners shorter tires well be faster.your money will be better spent on some 13x7 or 13x8 wheels if your dead set on toyo R888 put 185/60-13 with 13x7 wheels ( 21.7 inches tall ) all the way around if its stock horse power or go with Hoosier A6 255/40-13 13x8 wheels ( 21 inches tall ) all the way around but stock horse power will not suport this . even if you have 160 + HP the 13's will still be faster .
for the street 15's would be way cool to have I've always wanted 15's for the street.
I have run 13x7 wheels on all for corners with 185/60 front 205/60 rears I now have 13x5.5 on all for corners with 185/60-13 all the way around with the suspension set up as described above and the car is faster for one because of the suspension set up for two the shorter tires in the rear .
Did you notice he mentioned possibly adding sway bars and did not mention what spring rate's he's running? Please school him on spring rate's and how and why heaver springs shoud be going on the front and the advantages to running No sway bars.
Brian Hi welcome to the group Sube's are fun I owned an 02 WRX wagon I run a few autoxs events with it my X1/9 is faster and way more fun at autox.
I've got an 82 X1/9 it's got 600 lbs springs 2.5 negative camber 1/8th inch total tow out on the front .450 lbs 2.0 negative camber 1/8th total tow on the rear. no sway bars.It rides about 1 inch lower all the way around.I have not made any changes to the bump steer or the caster my feeling on caster and bump steer is my car works really good right now and until I get to be a good enough drive I'm not going to worry about it.
your talking about running 15 inch wheels with Toyo R888 205/50-15 those tires are 23.1 inches tall. way to tall for autox for off the line and coming out of corners shorter tires well be faster.your money will be better spent on some 13x7 or 13x8 wheels if your dead set on toyo R888 put 185/60-13 with 13x7 wheels ( 21.7 inches tall ) all the way around if its stock horse power or go with Hoosier A6 255/40-13 13x8 wheels ( 21 inches tall ) all the way around but stock horse power will not suport this . even if you have 160 + HP the 13's will still be faster .
for the street 15's would be way cool to have I've always wanted 15's for the street.
I have run 13x7 wheels on all for corners with 185/60 front 205/60 rears I now have 13x5.5 on all for corners with 185/60-13 all the way around with the suspension set up as described above and the car is faster for one because of the suspension set up for two the shorter tires in the rear .
Steve Hoelscher
True Classic
Hi Brian. Let me properly welcome you to the forum. And before we start getting to deeply into setup. What class are you going to run the car in? That will determine much of the approach to setting the car up.
If you are going to run the car without swaybars, and that's the way I recommend doing it, you will want to change these rates. 9K (I am assuming that's about 500 in/lbs) may be about right for the rear, if not somewhat on the stiff side, but 7K (about 400 in/lbs) will be too soft for the front. To use the 500 rears you will want to be in the 650 range for the front.
I know the Toyo R888 pretty well as that's what is used in World Challenge. They'll do.
Well you are in for a treat. The X1/9 chassis is one of the best. They make truly great autocrossers.
Front bump steer is pretty bad when lowered. Its fixable depending on the class you run. In prepared, you can flip the end links to the under side of the arm and take out most of the bump steer. Nobody I know of makes a kit.
Always check your bump travel. Bottoming the outside rear is never a good thing and you need to ensure you have adequate travel.
I have extensive notes and files on setting up the X1/9. So pretty much anything you may want to know I can tell you.
I have written a comprehensive setup manual for the 1st Gen MR2 that is published on the MR2 Owners Club autocross forum. Most of the data was developed from the X1/9 and adapted in development of my MR2.
Let me know what I can help with.
bpimm
Brian Pimm
That was sway bars with a big "if needed" I had a feeling the X would do well with out them.
Thanks for the welcome, and subies can be fun, but it takes some unconventional thinking to make them handle right. mine is a stock engined 2.2 Legacy.
Those are about the specs I was thinking, except the spring rates.
Absolutely right, but there are mitigating circumstances to the tire choice. If I were making a serious run for a class title or national's the plan would be different, however we have a slightly different outlook on autox than most. The X will be primarily driven by my better half RaeDean, She is pretty quick but fun is way higher on the priority list than competitiveness. I will also be driving the car for fun and on shorter courses where it is not worth trailering the race car to the event. First off the 205 50 15 already lives in the shop, that's what I ran on the subie. Second I have a almost never ending supply of it for very cheap. Third our events are 3 day open practice weekends with limited drivers, the subie logged 130 miles on track at one this last summer. Buying new rubber is out of the question when we cord a set every event. :headbang: If we were seriously campaigning the car the A6's you mentioned would be the choice.
yep, the shorter tires will always be quicker.
Thanks for the input,
Brian
bpimm
Brian Pimm
Thanks Steve, With the way we autox, class is not that much of a concern. we follow SCCA classing, but are not to stringent on the little things. I'm setting it up to run DSP, I think that is where it fit's, Street prepared rule set anyway, for now.
9K = 504 Lbs 7K = 392, good someone else that still things in Lbs.:happy:
I'm surprised by the stiffer front rate, would think it could induce understeer. Is it to increase front roll stiffness to help applying power on corner exit. those rates are the stock rates on the coilovers, I could have specified different rates,but thought they looked like a decent starting point, I can change the rate later, I bought the coilovers before I found this forum, my mistake.:mallet:
I remember learning that back in the early 80's, one of the locals had a blindingly fast one. If I remember correctly it was Mark Snell. that's a long time ago.
If they are so good, why are there not more of them in the national results? Not a good class car?
I also need to get the seat to go back further, I'm really cramped in it, I sat in Eric Armstrong's (fastx19) about a year ago and had lots of room. For some reason in ours, the seat won't go all the way back and my right leg is pinched between the center console and the steering wheel, not exactly the best driving position.
That's the kind of thing I would do even in SP no one in our club would care and it would drive better on the street. How do you work that, the taper would be backwards?
I'm sure I'll have more questions as time goes by, I'll write up the progress as I go, i just realized I don't even have a picture of the car to post, at least with wheels on it.
Thanks
Brian
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
205/50/15 will be too big for the exxe chassis. Overall diameter of the tire should not exceed 22.5" for what you're doing. I suspect the exxe will not perform properly and the chassis will get blamed.
IMO, if you're going to try and get what this chassis is capable of, use the proper size tires, it is basic and not a matter of cost alone.
Gearing will not work in your favor with 205/50/15's.
I would not allow 195/50/15s on the LeMons racer due to them being too large.
Properly set up, expect the exxe chassis to generate no less than 1.4 G cornering.
Bernice
IMO, if you're going to try and get what this chassis is capable of, use the proper size tires, it is basic and not a matter of cost alone.
Gearing will not work in your favor with 205/50/15's.
I would not allow 195/50/15s on the LeMons racer due to them being too large.
Properly set up, expect the exxe chassis to generate no less than 1.4 G cornering.
Bernice
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
No mistake, those are good starting point rates for what you are doing. We ran 550 lb/in front, 375lb/in rear (no anti-roll bars) on the LeMons racer and this set up worked quite well.
Roll stiffness can come from anti-roll bars or springs or a combo of both. It turns out, on the exxe it is easier and more effective to up the spring rates in place of anti-roll bars.
These rates might seem weird, but try them first, with the proper wheel/tire size and alignment.. before altering spring rates.
I spoke to the folks at K-Sport and got them to offer these rates as a starting point for the X1/9's performance package.
Bernice
Roll stiffness can come from anti-roll bars or springs or a combo of both. It turns out, on the exxe it is easier and more effective to up the spring rates in place of anti-roll bars.
These rates might seem weird, but try them first, with the proper wheel/tire size and alignment.. before altering spring rates.
I spoke to the folks at K-Sport and got them to offer these rates as a starting point for the X1/9's performance package.
Bernice
Ulix
True Classic
And...
...it is not just a matter of the tires being the "wrong" size, they also just simply won't fit!
If you plan on lowering a car a bit, the only 15" tire you will fit under the stock body is a 195/45-15.
(I am talking about a stock body w/o completely reshaped fender lips and using the car hard on a race track.)
For the 205/50s, you would have to do some serious fender cutting.
...it is not just a matter of the tires being the "wrong" size, they also just simply won't fit!
If you plan on lowering a car a bit, the only 15" tire you will fit under the stock body is a 195/45-15.
(I am talking about a stock body w/o completely reshaped fender lips and using the car hard on a race track.)
For the 205/50s, you would have to do some serious fender cutting.
Steve Hoelscher
True Classic
DSP it is then. I ran DSP for many years.
Yes, the stiffer springs go on the front. On rear wheel drive cars, you need the roll ratio biased toward the front. Mid/Rear engined cars require even greater front bias to counteract the rear weight bias.
You also need more front roll stiffness to put down power effectively but understeer won't be a problem. Unless you have something wrong, you will always be fighting oversteer.
As a temporary solution you can swap the rates front/rear and put the 9Ks on the front and the 7Ks on the rear. You will want the car stiffer than that ultimately, but this would at least get you started.
You will also want more camber. A good starting point will be about -2.5 rear and -1.75 to -2.0 front.
There have been a few fast DSP X1/9s up in the PacNW.
Seat rail issues are not uncommon. Either something's jambed under the seat or the rails are just rusty.
There are a few options. I have welded up the holes and re-drilled them. This is a PITA and finding the correct taper bit. Then next one I did, I band sawed the end of the arm off, flipped it and welded it back on. This wasn't the simplest either but it was easier than redrilling.
The best solution is to replace the tie rod ends with traditional rod ends and mount them to the under side of the steering arm. Its very simple and effective.
Well damn. Get out there and take some pics. We love pics.
More pics of my DSP car. I loved that car.
racerx
Autoxer
feeling cramped
Originally Posted by bpimm
Steve said cheek to see if something is jambed under the seat or the rails are just rusty.also check right were the gas,break and clutch pedals are from the outside under the car look to see if its dented in . my buddy's car was the same way my lags felt cramped when I sat in his car so I looked and yap it was dented in pretty bad too nothing a big hammer can't fix also get a smaller steering wheel like a 12 or 12 1/2 inch makes a big difference .I don't care what class I'm in so I removed the carpet ( it was all messed up anyway ) and the sound deadening too .
Originally Posted by bpimm
Steve said cheek to see if something is jambed under the seat or the rails are just rusty.also check right were the gas,break and clutch pedals are from the outside under the car look to see if its dented in . my buddy's car was the same way my lags felt cramped when I sat in his car so I looked and yap it was dented in pretty bad too nothing a big hammer can't fix also get a smaller steering wheel like a 12 or 12 1/2 inch makes a big difference .I don't care what class I'm in so I removed the carpet ( it was all messed up anyway ) and the sound deadening too .
bpimm
Brian Pimm
First off, Nice looking X.
Ok, for now I'll swap the rates and try out these, I was thinking of -2 all the way around for a start, I'll increase the rear to -2.5, and fighting oversteer sounds like a dream not a problem, I've always liked driving sideways... not fast but definitely fun.
Probably rusty all the previous drivers were short so it never got moved all the way back.
There are a few options. I have welded up the holes and re-drilled them. This is a PITA and finding the correct taper bit. Then next one I did, I band sawed the end of the arm off, flipped it and welded it back on. This wasn't the simplest either but it was easier than redrilling.
The best solution is to replace the tie rod ends with traditional rod ends and mount them to the under side of the steering arm. Its very simple and effective.
Well damn. Get out there and take some pics. We love pics.
The rod ends sound like a good solution, I have cut the ends off to shorten them for quicker steering also, I could mess up the cut a few times and end up with faster steering.:innocent:
Ok here is one pic I took today sitting in the shop waiting for wheel bearings.
Thanks
Steve Hoelscher
True Classic
tire sizes
I helped setup an SP STI. Not really un-conventional. Its a typical awd car. You have to remember that all of the wheels drive instead of just the fronts or rears.
As has already been noted. The 205/50-15s are not going to fit. And if you do get them on the car the large diameter will have too much inertia and kill the car's performance. You will not like them.
Several years ago, I tested a set of 195/50-15s on my DSP X and they were terrible. 205/50s will be even worse.
The car really does need tires less than 22 inches tall. And under 21 is preferred. While it may not fit your preferred tire choice, you will want 13s on the car. 185/60s are relatively cheap and because a well setup X is so easy on tires, they will last quite a while.
I helped setup an SP STI. Not really un-conventional. Its a typical awd car. You have to remember that all of the wheels drive instead of just the fronts or rears.
As has already been noted. The 205/50-15s are not going to fit. And if you do get them on the car the large diameter will have too much inertia and kill the car's performance. You will not like them.
Several years ago, I tested a set of 195/50-15s on my DSP X and they were terrible. 205/50s will be even worse.
The car really does need tires less than 22 inches tall. And under 21 is preferred. While it may not fit your preferred tire choice, you will want 13s on the car. 185/60s are relatively cheap and because a well setup X is so easy on tires, they will last quite a while.
bpimm
Brian Pimm
The Subies are just so in love with understeer plus I don't have the power advantage of the WRX's and STI's Plus mine is still my daily driver and tow car for the race car, all of these add a few more variables. I ended up with the stiffer springs on the back and the whiteline adjustable rear bar had to have another chain plate added so I could stiffen it even more, Finally the car rotates into a corner and doesn't wash out half way through. I could have gone a lot stiffer on the springs but it is my daily driver.
I do understand this and realize I will be giving up acceleration out of the corners and I will probably go to 13's when the budget allows. right now I have 9 R888's that I payed $9 each for with an endless supply on tap I also have a set of wheels for them. If they don't fit I'll put them on my sons Miata and move on.
Even if the X is easy on tires we can easily see 400-500 runs in a season. New rubber just doesn't pencil out and there is not a steady supply of 13" takeoffs like there is with the spec Miata.
I had a 225 under the front today, now granted all the parts are not in there yet but it looks like the 205 will fit with the higher offset wheel and the proper spacer made. Time will tell, I'm waiting for the wheel bearings to show up before I can reassemble. I may be eating a large order of crow when I try to fit them.:eat:
AngleT
Always more tuning to do
195/45-15 is a stock height tire
and a 225/50-15 tire will fit on the rear without mods if the rim is offset properly. The front is a completely different story. Fender mods will be likely unless coilovers are used. IMHO Save your money for other mods and just put a set of sticky 13" tires on it for now.
and a 225/50-15 tire will fit on the rear without mods if the rim is offset properly. The front is a completely different story. Fender mods will be likely unless coilovers are used. IMHO Save your money for other mods and just put a set of sticky 13" tires on it for now.