Old paint codes?

myredracer

myredracer

True Classic
About to paint my '58 600 (Abarth replica) this coming week and want to match the original color, a "sea foam" green as some used to call it. Looks sorta like the green on the new Fiat 500s. I inquired at the auto body paint supply shop a while back and they couldn't come up with a match with the little info. I have. The ID plate has no paint code on it.

I *might* have found a few possibilities that look close, or maybe even the actual color, on the internet. The old color codes are a 3-digit number like 363 for example. Do these 3-digit numbers mean anything to auto paint suppliers? Or do I need a number from a paint manufacturer?

I have some color cards from Spies Heckler and not sure if one of the colors is the right one. Hard to tell with a piece of sheet metal I kept off my 600 when I was doing the metal work. I just don't know if the original enamel paint has faded much either. The auto body paint shop tried to come up with a match and couldn't and may have to make a guess at it. Not the end of the world if it isn't the same but would be nice. Going to use single stage urethane along with a flattener to make it look more like the original low sheen enamel.

Maybe X owners have the same problem or are '70s and later Fiat paint codes easy to match?
 
I seem to recall a long time ago someone here posted a bunch of factory paint code information (unfortunately no idea who that was or where to find it now). I think they had the pages of color chips or such from Fiat. But I don't know how far back that would go. Typically automotive paint supply houses have the ability to provide the exact paint based on just a factory paint code number. So if you find the right number they should be able to make what you want. Although I wonder if really old Italian car paint codes are still in their data banks? But that would be the best method to try first.
 
Dr.Jeff said:
I Typically automotive paint supply houses have the ability to provide the exact paint based on just a factory paint code number.
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When I did my paint research several years ago, I found that my code was available only in a one step Imron paint. It is a quite toxic, and in Canada is only available for use on commercial construction equipment. Please don't ask me to explain that regulation. I eyeballed the paint chip masters and chose one that looked the closest in a modern base / clear paint.

Paul
 
PaulD said:
I found that my code was available only in a one step Imron paint.
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The very first car I ever painted (at age 14) was a complete color change with silver metallic DuPont Imron. It was brand new to the automotive market (previously only for commercial aircraft) and more costly than 'regular' paint, but all paints were cheap then. That was also my first (and last) British car, a TR4 with the factory Surrey Top option. The shine and glimmer was amazing.
 
PaulD said:
When I did my paint research several years ago, I found that my code was available only in a one step Imron paint. It is a quite toxic, and in Canada is only available for use on commercial construction equipment. Please don't ask me to explain that regulation. I eyeballed the paint chip masters and chose one that looked the closest in a modern base / clear paint.

Paul
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I assume you mean single stage paint (no clear coat) vs two stage (base coat/clear coat)?

Modern 2 part (2K) paints and urethane primers have isocyanate in the activator/catalyst which is extremely toxic. Not like the acrylic enamel I used a few times back in the 70s when a whiff of it wouldn't hurt you (and it had a kinda nice smell to it too, lol). You MUST fully and properly suit up, not have any exposed skin and wear a full face respirator with correct organic vapor cartridges (fresh ones too). If using it indoors then you require a "supplied air" respirator setup which aren't cheap. The isocyanate does serious damage to lungs and other organs and some have even ended having to use an oxygen bottle 24/7 for the rest of their lives. You can be exposed to it and not realize it and your body becomes sensitized to it. Then the next time you get exposed to it the airways in your lungs can constrict and you can barely breath. I will only use it outdoors and we almost always have at least a slight breeze.

Don't know much about Imron but it does have isocyanate in it. I think they had legal issues at one time and I think it got a bad rap because it was one of the early products with iso in it. Before using anything you suspect could have iso in it, look up the MSDS sheet online.

I'm kinda surprised the body shop supply place I've been buying from doesn't warn you right upfront about isocyanate before letting you take anything out the door. I only learned about it by lots of googling. Another body shop supplier here that's been around for decades stopped selling to the public a few years back. Maybe iso and liability reasons?
 
myredracer said:
I assume you mean single stage paint (no clear coat) vs two stage (base coat/clear coat)?

Modern 2 part (2K) paints and urethane primers have isocyanate in the activator/catalyst which is extremely toxic. .

Don't know much about Imron but it does have isocyanate in it. I think they had legal issues at one time and I think it got a bad rap because it was one of the early products with iso in it. Before using anything you suspect could have iso in it, look up the MSDS sheet online.
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I am currently doing a bare metal repaint one panel at a time, I am spraying the epoxy primer and high build primer. I will leave the two stage base coat/clear coat to a pro. My work with a spray gun is OK if I will be sanding it, not for finish work.

I am taking all of the precautions you mentioned, and also having the compressor charged and turned off to avoid any sparks on start up. I am working in a garage with the bay doors open. When I am finished, in taking off my protective gear and leaving the shop, I can still feel the toxicity of the paint.

As an aside, at one point I was replacing the drip strip under the front hood using aircraft riveting and panel bond. I, foolishly, thought that it was a small job and epoxy was not that bad and did not put on my respirator. Big mistake, panel bond is way toxic: toward the end I could not control the rivet gun, I was stoned. Never again.

Paul
 
As far as paint material choices, techniques, and safety, things have changed dramatically over the years. There are a LOT more choices now than there ever was in years past. In some ways I liked the old stuff better, but it is true I had no idea of its effects on my health or the environment. Perhaps some of the hype is overkill for the once or twice ever use by a home hobbiest. I'm sure a lot of it is aimed more at professional shops and larger scale industrial use. But I certainly preferred the cost back then. Top quality paint went from $20-30 per gallon up to several hundred to well over a thousand a gallon. It is interesting though, you can still buy pretty much any type of automotive paint inexpensively from some shops or online and have it shipped anywhere. I guess the regulations are more for its use and not its sales...our government works in odd ways.
 
kmead said:
Glasurit has a nice lookup system for a particular color:
https://coloronline.glasurit.com/CCC/html/index.php

I found this which looks like the color you seek which would be Fiat paint code 363
https://paintref.com/paintref/make/green_Fiat.shtml
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Seeing this reminds me of a paint "mishap" on a friends 600 many years ago. He wanted the light green similar to what Gil is after, so I gave him the "#363 Light Green" paint code to use when ordering his paint (for his paint supplier to match). He told the supplier that he wanted "Fiat paint #363". Got the paint & gave it to his paint shop that would be painting the car for him (shop owned by a friend of his). I was with him & distinctly remember him mentioning (repeatedly) to the painter that he couldn't wait to see this cool green color on the car (the dude was embarassingly euphoric about the color).

Got a call later from his friend the painter, asking us to come down to the shop to verify the color? (He was confused). We arrived & there stood his 1/3-painted-blue Fiat 600 shell. BLUE? Yep, nobody had verified the actual physical color of the paint in the can! It was Fiat paint #363 alright, but it turns out that there are TWO Fiat paints coded as "363". There's 363 Light Green & 363 Blue. The 2 links that Karl just provided show this, as well. First link, second color shown is 363 Blue. Second link, first color shown is 363 Light Green. Same code #363.

The moral of the story is to always state the paint code # & paint color (name) when ordering paint (use paint chip books if possible), & always look at the paint itself to re-verify the actual contents of the can (before painting the car).
 
Well I got something! Thanks for the above links. After jotting down a few of the numbers I headed off to the supplier. They couldn't find a match no matter what they tried tho. But I did have a small piece of metal with the original paint on it and although it was quite scratched and marked up, they got what looks like a pretty good match using their spectrophotometer. "363" or one of the few other 3-digit numbers with a similar looking green meant nothing to them. Numbers I also had from Glasurit, BASF and Spies Heckler were of no use. It was as if these old codes were from the dark ages or something.

Wow, I didn't realize that Fiat used so many different colors over the years. There's many shades of green and even several called "light green" which are clearly different and also more paint manufacturers and brand names than I imagined. Hard to get an accurate rendition of colors on a computer screen as well.

For a gallon of urethane paint, the activator, thinner and matting agent (flattener) plus some gun wash and wax & grease remover, it rang up at just over $500 (Can.). That's on top of epoxy & urethane primers, various sandpaper grits and types and other misc. sundries which will put me at maybe around $1500-ish total (about $1K US) for all materials. I hate to think what a body shop would charge for a complete bare metal up paint job. Doesn't include compressor and related stuff which I couldn't have done without for all the metal work and media blasting. The worst thing has to be the countless hours of block sanding that is needed before laying down the topcoat. My shoulder joints still ache. Permanently I think! :mad:

Part of doing a half decent DIY paint job is in the spray gun itself. I've used a couple of low cost HVLP guns (Princess Auto - our equiv. to HF) for the primer since the high-build primer needs sanding anyway. Some guys use these a few times for primer and just toss them. I didn't want to spend upwards of $1K on a fancy HVLP gun and I just got myself an Astro Pneumatic gun which are supposed to be "okay" for a DIY-er.

I painted a canopy for our truck last month using single stage urethane and a cheapo Princess Auto HVLP gun. First experience with urethane paint. Came out not too bad except for a couple of runs. Nothing hours and hours of wet sanding won't fix, lol... Looks good unless you get up close.

Have painted several Fiats myself in the 70s & 80s (128, X1/9, 850 & 600). Back then it was vinyl wash primer, some kind of red oxide primer and acrylic enamel. Only one type of body filler was typically used as I recall. I don't remember it costing all that much either. It's all changed so drastically. Almost need to be a chemist or chemical engineer. Even on popular DIY/enthusiast auto body forums debates rage on about the best way to do things and what products to use.

I am hoping the paint job turns out okay because I want to have the car together and looking good in time for the Italian car show here next June. I have a stack of 1500 & 2000 grit paper standing by... :)
 
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PaulD said:
I am currently doing a bare metal repaint one panel at a time, I am spraying the epoxy primer and high build primer. I will leave the two stage base coat/clear coat to a pro. My work with a spray gun is OK if I will be sanding it, not for finish work.

I am taking all of the precautions you mentioned, and also having the compressor charged and turned off to avoid any sparks on start up. I am working in a garage with the bay doors open. When I am finished, in taking off my protective gear and leaving the shop, I can still feel the toxicity of the paint.

As an aside, at one point I was replacing the drip strip under the front hood using aircraft riveting and panel bond. I, foolishly, thought that it was a small job and epoxy was not that bad and did not put on my respirator. Big mistake, panel bond is way toxic: toward the end I could not control the rivet gun, I was stoned. Never again.

Paul
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I don't know much about the new technology BC/CC paints which I believe are all water-borne. AFAIK, these aren't DIY friendly and need to be done in a fancy, expensive and heated spray booth that only shops can afford. I know sometimes you can rent a proper booth but it's probably best to let a pro do it for you. And if you can have all the prep work done and everything masked off, it should bring the cost down. Don't know how much all the 2 stage materials would cost either.

It's interesting to watch some of the car restoration shows on TV whether it's painting, welding or other things. Sometimes they seem to throw safety and OHS requirements out the window. I probably watch closer for lack of safety than some do because my wife is a manager at our worker's comp. org. and has seen it all.

Clear coat technology reminds of an '86 Hyundai Excel we used to have. I took it to a car wash once and when using the spray wand, the clear coat peeled off in sheets!! OMG, I just stood there dumbfounded. Not sure if it was because CC technology was in it's infancy or it was bad quality control at the factory. Hyundais from that era had a really bad reputation for QC. Prior to the above, we had parts failing and falling off regularly. The car looked like sh*t with so much missing CC and it was the last straw and then we bought a Toyota instead.
 
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$1000 USD for all of the materials you listed is a good price in my experience (these days). Sadly, you could easily spend that for just 1 can of base paint.
Sanding really sucks in my opinion. Guess I'm too ADD to do all that work for so long. :D

Not sure if this is everywhere, but I've noticed several US domestic vehicles with paint retention issues. Some have clear coat failure/breakdown, but I'm talking about the entire color and clear coming off in patches. Leaving the grey protective metal coating exposed like big leper spots. For some reason I've notice more of them in white. And that has been happening for maybe 15-20 years, or more. You would think they could resolve the issue by now.
 
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