Papa Tony says I have sins I have to confess!

LarryC

Curator of #10105275
Sins of modification! (See recent Technical Forum "Vapour Lock"), such as, how come my tag line says "all original" when I have got all these mods. This is actually an interesting topic for discussion and I believe there is some interest on this very forum in this very topic! This is also a question that gets batted back and forth among us older vehicle types. Variations on this question arise in most of the vintage car and truck forums. Maybe I should “modify” my statement to say the Crab is “Bob Brown modified” or, in other words, replacement parts and upgrades have been added that replace original parts but may be of slightly different manufacture; meaning things that can be returned to pure stock without welding, painting, and searching for mysterious parts to bolt back into mysterious holes.

OK, so here are my modifications:
-trunk and frunk carpet from an ’85 instead of the rubber ’79 mats
-Delco alternator (the very first mod, done in 1979!)
-headlight relay mod
-electric fuel pump
-Daytonas and 60x185 13 rubber
-Aluminum expansion tank
-aftermarket coil and plug wires
-modern thermal shield on the exhaust manifold instead of the sheet metal shield
-small scissors jack carefully mounted where the old death jack was located.

I am thinking hard here, but I think that’s about it. Most of my attention has been devoted to maintaining what its got. Everything else is just replaced. Like the exhaust system from exhaust manifold to muffler, right down to the hangers are all new but original equipment style.

Otherwise all of the factory-installed equipment is there and working or suitable replacements (struts and stock springs, new original style carb, new original weatherstrips, carpet), including emissions equipment and related plumbing. In some circles this is also known as either “well-maintained” or “unmolested”. There are tipping points where the mods or maintenance goes too far, and the definition of “too far” is specific to each individual no doubt.

But my point is that I have modified a lot of cars over the years and the results are variable. After most modifications, a lot of effort goes into fixing things at the other end of the cascade that occurs when something that was originaly there gets removed or “upgraded”. And I believe that it has been mentioned here before that modified vehicles sometimes get less attention than unmodified but well-maintained ones. I have a couple of other vehicle like that. The one with all the do-dads gets hardly a notice. But the more or less original one is hard to drive, because everyone is all over it.

So maybe that is where I am coming from on the X. Since the Crab has been kept pretty much “original” in this respect, I am enjoying driving it and not fiddling with my modifications so much. I can also focus on getting things working right when they don’t seem to be working right. For example, instead of all sorts of fixes for overheating brought on by power modifications or other things that cascade into the cooling system, I can just focus on re-newing the cooling system to spec. It is not a street-burning buzz bomb perhaps, but it runs well and pretty sweetly. Maybe I will change the signature to “unmolested”!

The origin of the name “Crab” is another story involving a seafood restaurant and a strange advertisement which I will save for another time:wink2:.
 
WOW... I never suspected this much!

You have been hiding some deep dark secrets here...

I think it was about 1983 when a parts counter guy suggested I replace my Marelli alternator with a GM, but he couldn't tell me HOW to do it, and it would be 15 years later before I found the #$&^%* access panel tha makes it EASY! And YOU... converted one back in '79!!!

Tell us more about the aluminum tank... is this one of Oberts ir one you made yourself? I just received a SS one from Mr. Brown but can't install it until he approves the LUSTER... (You shoulda heard him SQUEAL when I told him I was gonna paint it FLAT BLACK!!! HA!)

Along your lines of "philosophy"... I haveta agree with your approach, and although we differ a bit, I think we think a like in this one regard... If there is something a little better, cheaper, easier, and more reliable, like the GM alternator, why would I wanna insist on installing a stocker I know is not up to par?

I just read an article by a Ron Sass (I think) in Nov. 2009 Sports Car Market magazine surrounding the '74 X1/9... whereas he states the original skinny 145/80x13 Michelins would outperform tires like a 185/60x13s... and most of us (idiots?) insist on installing the fatter tires.

HA!

I don't know what planet this guy comes from... but I've driven several with the better P3 Pirelli's and I can't fathom how an even smaller tire would fair better.

Back to reality... thanks for sharing... great stuff, yur obviously a good sport, and I KNOW ya feel better now! You can cancel next Saturday's confession!~
 
Hey Larry, I won't hold it against ya!

Haha! Well, reading your post, you've gotta admit that "original" is quite subjective. :wink2:
I wouldn't consider the changeout of the alternator to a Delco to be original at all, but I wouldn't hold it against ya either, as it's (literally) a bolt-on part. Same with the wheels, same with the coolant tank.
Mine has the same "issues". Mine came with the plastic coolant tank that I replaced with a polished SS one. Same with the fuel lines, (now SS braid) and the wheels, (CD30's) and bulbs/lamps, etc. etc. I kept all the "original" stuff for the "purist", but I still consider mine as an unmolested original because the primary stuff actually IS STILL original. If I were to buy another car today, I wouldn't consider these "improvements" as "molestations", but others might. So I guess concours or original is somewhat subjective.

Several have seen my car and still consider it original, but with some non-invasive improvements. I'm happy to see your "original" has many of the same. :grin:

Confessions, they're good for the soul Larry. :nod: Thanks for sharing! Love the crab.
 
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Bob...

Herein lies the problem...

ORIGINAL is NOT subjective... its an OBJECTIVE term... and yes, it is the Concours definition!

I can only think of one other comparison but I ain't gonna discuss it here! HA!

It's also the most elite and expensive and difficult status to achieve and maintain... just like the OTHER thing I won't mention! I hold these cars and people in the highest regard... and YOU and Larry are a close second!

Lets just not try ta fool ourselves here... As they say at the Barrett-Jackson auctions, its only "original" ONCE!
 
I am going to go with "unmolested" for now.

Yes, I am using one of Chris Obert’s new aluminum tanks. Spendy, but all the plastic tanks are getting old . Between rusty filler necks and brittle plastic, I was getting only a few years out of used ones. Since nobody makes a new replacement plastic tank, I figure I am ahead of the game after only a few years even if the aluminum tank is outrageous in cost initially.
mounted.jpg


The issue of original, versus modified, versus restomod, etc. has not been well analyzed in the auto community in my opinion despite a lot of discussion and debate over the years. There are certain categories of cars and of collectors/users and those are not very well codified. I think that “noninvasive” modification is a good description of what some of us like to see, just not a good adjective for cars with noninvasive treatments. “Unmolested” is good, but then it has the vague hint that if its not unmolested it must be molested. That’s not always the case either.

What it boils down to with me is that I like some mods and I don’t like others, chiefly because the level of engineering expertise with some owners is not at the same level as others. So you will get a great car sometimes with the mods you like, but some of the mods can be shade-tree or “ghetto”, while others are top notch.

So with all this in mind, I try to do mods that are non-invasive, both because they can be undone, and because the less invasive they are, the easier they are to do right (although even those can be done wring, like wires twisted together for an added accessory rather than proper connectors and relays). Or when looking at a car, I try to go for one that is not modified at all but in good shape. That way I get to do the mods my way and engineered to my specifications, not someone else’s slap-dash engineering. Recently I bought a vehicle with quite a few modifications, but they were the ones I like. And other areas of the vehicle were essentially unmolested.

If the show-car circuits wants to commandeer the term “original” for some sort of concours definition, then so be it.
 
IMO, the Chris O tanks are not "spendy", they are what any good quality part that works as they should will cost..

I'm going to get on my cheap FIAT soap box and say, the problem with the X is perceived market value and what the current market value is for the X kind drives what some owners are willing to spend on their X.. Ie, if a typical condition X sells for $2,000, why should I spend $200 on a coolant tank? Some folks who's hobby evolve around "desierable cars" like a Ferrari 512 Boxer won't even flinch on spending $6,000+ on a bi-annual service for their 512.. It's all releative and what car folks percieve as desierable.

Indeed, the Bertne/FIAT engineering in the X is acutually quite good as delivered. Anyone who goes down the modificatrion route better know precisely what they are doing and why they are doing it to better what was designed in.. Keep in mind, the X is a seriously cost constrained production car. The X designers did very well given what they had to work with and they even had the forsight to design in far more performance capability if developed..

The harsh reality is many aftermarket parts are junk, there are few that are really worth while but these parts don't come "cheap". In the end, one really can get what they pay for..

There is nothing wrong with a totally stock, as delivered X.. It perserves the history of the X as delivered which is a postive thing for all X heads and for those who enjoy their X this way..:nod:



Yes, I am using one of Chris Obert’s new aluminum tanks. Spendy, but all the plastic tanks are getting old . Between rusty filler necks and brittle plastic, I was getting only a few years out of used ones. Since nobody makes a new replacement plastic tank, I figure I am ahead of the game after only a few years even if the aluminum tank is outrageous in cost initially.


The issue of original, versus modified, versus restomod, etc. has not been well analyzed in the auto community in my opinion despite a lot of discussion and debate over the years. There are certain categories of cars and of collectors/users and those are not very well codified. I think that “noninvasive” modification is a good description of what some of us like to see, just not a good adjective for cars with noninvasive treatments. “Unmolested” is good, but then it has the vague hint that if its not unmolested it must be molested. That’s not always the case either.

What it boils down to with me is that I like some mods and I don’t like others, chiefly because the level of engineering expertise with some owners is not at the same level as others. So you will get a great car sometimes with the mods you like, but some of the mods can be shade-tree or “ghetto”, while others are top notch.

So with all this in mind, I try to do mods that are non-invasive, both because they can be undone, and because the less invasive they are, the easier they are to do right (although even those can be done wring, like wires twisted together for an added accessory rather than proper connectors and relays). Or when looking at a car, I try to go for one that is not modified at all but in good shape. That way I get to do the mods my way and engineered to my specifications, not someone else’s slap-dash engineering. Recently I bought a vehicle with quite a few modifications, but they were the ones I like. And other areas of the vehicle were essentially unmolested.

If the show-car circuits wants to commandeer the term “original” for some sort of concours definition, then so be it.
 
Looking at that engine compartment,

I have a confession to make... I am not worthy. You could eat yer lunch off that air cleaner. :worship:
 
I'm with ya LarryC...

Take a look at this for a sec... I did a little "cleanup"...
This photo was taken prior to finish, as I had a scratch I had to polish out of the plenum, plus re-attaching
the emission plate over it, replace the coolant tank and oil fill caps with new OEM originals, and
put the covers back over the strut towers. BUT ... (more below)

engineshotsm.jpg


Even though I consider all my clean-up "mods" as relatively close, their in fact not. But would I change
them back? Hell no, even though Concourso folks would tell me I've "ruined" the originality of the car.
I can't imagine pulling an ORIGINAL (wrong year!) polished stainless coolant tank for the original plastic one.

Every part you see there is "original" except the stainless fuel lines. Even the tiny clamps on the fuel lines
mimic the original, but they're made of stainless instead of plated steel. Why would I change that?
I've gone through some pain and expense keeping it "original" per se, even though it's not TRUE original.
But it's damn close. Certainly better by any standard. But not "true original."
I guess I really don't want to "downgrade" the car. :shock: But to date, this is an ORIGINAL STOCK UNMODIFIED
-although dressed up to look pretty- engine bay, soup to nuts.

With that, I feel your concourso pain... I really do. :nod:
 
Bob, That's what I'm talkin' about!

I lust! That's the Holy Grail of mods in my book. And I know exactly where you are going and what you are saying. Now we need a word for that. If it isn't "original" and it isn't resto-modified, then what is it? It's something that I would like to see more of whatever it is.

Bernice, I agree 100 percent. Which is why I bought an expansion tank that cost 3 times more than anything comparable: it works, it fits, and I never have to worry about expansion tanks again, besides looking nice. In general I pay 3 times as much as most people pay for everything, from computer operating systems to broccoli, for the same reason: quality pays. A thing of enjoyment like the X, treated like an investment for which one expects interest on the principal, is not a thing of enjoyment. I would gladly pay top price for parts that worked. And I try to whenever they are available, which, as you point out, is not very often it seems.

Paulie, That's agood idea. How about original FIat air cleaner sushi plates!
 
One thing I forgot to tell you Larry,

Is that your engine looks awesome and all the work you've put into it really shows. :cool: It's all worth it.
 
Larry, Bob, Bernice... don't get me wrong here...

I'm not the one hung up on ORIGINALITY, nor do I try to achieve it or maintain it.

But I do reserve the word for its proper usage.

I'm not sure where you folks are coming from... as you all install upgrades and the mods you choose to, and then throw around the word "original" in the very next sentence along with "Fiat Engineers can do no wrong!"

I generally LOVE 99% of what they did... and currently do... but as WE all know, there can be some improvements!

All of you do great work and in your own right... demonstrate the ORIGINAL greatness as well as what can be improved... Why you folks don't wanna recognize what you do is beyond me. If ya change something, improve something, then it's just not original any more. Why would you wanna say that it is?

(WHAT I JUST REALIZED about ME... WAS THIS... and it ain't you guys... its those that attempt to deceive. So many folks toss around the "original" word in an attempt to dupe another person. I just now realized that this is a "button word" for me while proofing what I wrote... Anyway...)

BTW Larry, under that stock air cleaner, if ya haven't tried a K&N 2710 element (about 30 bucks) its well work the expense. And secondly, I have a great SS reservoir that Bob just sold me, if you want it... let me know... and/or Bob may have another or a few others also. That Obert tank is amazing though...

(Also... I'm on my second plastic tank I replaced about 25 years ago... and it still "appears" to be OK. Hate to toss it...)
 
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