Project cooling, continued

bbrown

bbrown

Bob Brown
Moderator
Last November I posted a thread with regard to adding more cooling capacity to my X1/9.
Well, as Tony Natoli has indicated on several occasions, I've been tied up, "shut in", (whatever!)
from time to time this winter and have been thinking about doing something about this.

You might remember this picture I drew showing an additional auxiliary pump somewhere
in the line, something that can help the coolant flow when stuck in traffic or going nowhere.

pumpinsert.jpg


Well, I finally got around to finishing up the pieces I started last winter and decided to
spend today to see if I could actually fit it in. The following photo shows the pieces I've collected.
The stainless piece was something I made during the winter months and spent several hours in
doing it. I'm not much of a welder but I can stick weld pretty good, so I used Nickel-silver to
weld the inlet and outlets on. It's all stainless (since I have a passion for stainless!) so the result came
out looking pretty good. It'll out last the car anyway.
The pump was an Italian-made unit designed as a turbo inter-cooler. I found it on Italian eBay
sometime last winter. It's a $100 pump and has a very high MTBF rating and is magnetically
coupled internally, so no leaks at high temperatures.
The hose was something I found today actually, in my quest to get this thing installed.

intercoolercomponentssm.jpg


Here's a photo of the built assembly. The design was to "hopefully" fit into the radiator hose up
front. My desire was to try and tap into the coolant return line, but there's simply no room. Too bad,
as the coolant would be of a lower temperature and be better for the pump. But the pump was built to
take it anyway, so no matter...

intercoolerassemblysm.jpg


The worst part about this "experiment" is that I had to cut into the nice brand-new hoses I
just installed, but no guts, no glory! Ha!
Shown here is the assembly installed into the coolant feed line to the radiator. The radiator doesn't
show but is connected directly to the top left hose in the photo. The pump assembly fits perfectly
within the original coolant line. The pump doesn't touch anywhere inside, although it's close!
It clears everything, including my air conditioning setup. (which I think is why I overheat so easily
when going slow or not moving) That loop in the top is the coolant draw from the line. I'm hoping
this doesn't become a hassle to purge the air from. I'll find out soon enough. However, there's enough
force and volume of coolant that I believe this should not be a problem. This photo was taken
before re-installing the cooling fan...

intercoolerinstalledsm.jpg


And finally, a photo with the fan installed. Tomorrow, I'll start the engine and clear all the air
out of the lines. Hopefully, this will all be good news. Wish me luck!

intercoolerfaninstalled.jpg


Left to do: Wire in the new engine temperature sensor and control the fans and pump. This new
pump only draws a couple amps, so I'll be running it with the fans -which makes sense. (to me... :D )

More on this as I progress... ( like, "will it work!" ) I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

Hope you've enjoyed today's show and tell.
 
Its a shame you do things to such half measures. Poor transitions, sloppy welds, horrible finishing, bad electrical connections. I mean really you put this on a car? Jeez.

My my that is a very fine set of objects. Great job. I hope it gives you what you hope for. If it doesn't it won't be for lack of trying and doing really nice work. Very impressive indeed and a very clean factory like install.
 
Hi Bob

As much as I appreciate your work I don't see it doing vary much if the pump is as powerful as you say it is won't it pull water from the 90 degree bend in the tube and just be recirculating the same water over and over? I hope it works for you.
If not maybe think about the Vdub Rad I can't praise it enough just the other day I was driving ( well stopped in traffic ) in 96 degree out side air tempter and my fan never came on and the engine temp never got over 200 wear before the with old factory radiator I could barely come up to a stop sign with out going up to 220 and before I had 2 fans constantly cycling on and off .best mod I ever did for cooling oh I almost forgot before the mod I had the rain tray removed and hols cut in the frunk to vent the heat it barely helped as a test I blocked the hols and reinstall the rain tray and like I said crawling in 96 degree out side air temp and the engine never hit 200 degrees.
 
As always Great work but.....

Bob, As usual your attention to detail and the pictures of your stuff is awsome and even inspirational. My concern is that your flow diagram will actually look like this:
obrecirculate.jpg

If there are any fluid dynamics guys out there perhaps they could comment. I think the slight low pressure on the intake side of the tubing will just cause the fluid to move from the high pressure side, not the engine. If you imagine that only air were in the system I think you would see that this would be the case. In fact water moves just as air moves with respect to pressure and flow. A good test might be to install a flow meter and test the water flow rate at idle.

It seems that the problem is due to either low flow or inadequate heat exchange. If flow is the problem, some sort of auxiliary flow device as you propose is the answer. If heat exchange is the problem, either a better fan or better radiator is the answer. Temperature probes on the input and output side of the radiator might be of help to analyze the situation.
As a backup plan a custom radiator or different fan setup is probably the answer.


Anyway I hope it works and look forward to your report.
Bob T.
 
what about the venturi effect of the water coming out of the pump, this might actually make the water that misses the pump flow faster in the right direction... I'm sure someone could work in out in some flow dynamics program, but you would have to include the resistance of the whole system.
 
Bob T.

that's exactly what I was thinking but you've got that awesome graphic and a better explanation.
 
I "bench tested" it...

In the kitchen sink and it definitely pulls from the incomming direction and pushes in the outgoing direction. Especially up-hill as configured. I would imagine some will be recirculated, since they are so close together but I chose to do it at a bend in order to influence the direction of flow.

I'm depending on the forward pressure of the coolant, plus whatever pull the pump will make in order to prime the circular tube. Might have to make a sharper bend, don't know yet but might find out as soon as today. Thanks for your comments RacerX.

My goal here is to keep the car as stock as possible. I realize this component isn't stock but it is an insertable one, so going back is a matter of replacing it with a stock hose. I'd like to make the original radiator assembly work for me if I can.

Thanks!
 
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Bob T, I believe, though

I don't know yet, that your diagram is correct if there's no flow in the primary (larger) tube. I would expect the fluids to (pretty-much) circulate where they stand. With forward flow in the primary tube, the pump would act like a "boost" of sorts. At least that's what I'm hoping for. More on this (hopefully) later today. Thanks for your comments! Much appreciated.
 
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Coupla things...

IF... ya do have a recirculating flow problem with the pump on... some sort of check valve in the original plumbing would solve the issue... Would need to be located theoretically in the "bend" area...

Secondly... Hussein tells me privately that VOLVO has one of these systems that will bolt right in, draws 1/4 amp, fully adjustable flow rates, made in the Italian part of Sweden, and costs only 50 bucks.

(hehehe)
 
I know a little bit about fluid dynamics.

But without running the numbers and hurting my brain, it’s hard to say. But my first reaction is that the water pump itself could be the limiting constriction in any attempt to enhance the system. You have got to force this new flow past that to accomplish the primary goal. But my second reaction is that the insertable mod is so well designed at this point that it is worth a try. Theory has come smack up against observation too many times in my past to say this will not work. I say it is worth a try. Could be the start of a whole new industry!
 
WOW.

I admire your welding! You should consider some kind of modern sculpture work.

I spent huge time and huge $$$ curing a heat problem in an old E-Type Jag that I had. The system was not well designed to begin with. But the X has a great cooling system with lots of capacity.

Anyway, one thing I learned is that speeding up flow is rarely an answer. The water needs a certain "dwell time" to give it a chance to soak up the engine's heat. Speed up the water flow, and it just comes out cooler.

By far, the best answer to heat problems is to SHED the heat as best as possible through the radiator. And a higly efficient Aluminum radiator is the AMAZINGLY best way to go. You could also inluence cooling by replacing the big steel coolant tubes with aluminum too.

I see where you are headed: keep the water flowing when the engine and pump are turning slowly due to traffic or stop light. But the slow engine is generating less heat and has a large supply of cool water arriving at the engine. It will balance out.

The only scenario I could imagine where this might be helpful would be if you were driving on the highway at 75 mph, then you take an exit ramp with a long stoplight at the end of the ramp. So a heat-soaked engine would suddenly be deprived of cooling water flow.

But a more efficient radiator is a better answer, and since it's a bolt-on mod, you wouldn't be harming the car with an irreversible mod. Actually I think of it as CHEAP INSURANCE. A modern fan would help too.

And if you just can't sleep at night thinking about water flow, try to avoid drinking water just before bed time, otherwise that bladder pressure will give you some crazy dreams. :sleep:
 
I'll try that...

eflexter said:
... But a more efficient radiator is a better answer, and since it's a bolt-on mod, you wouldn't be harming the car with an irreversible mod. Actually I think of it as CHEAP INSURANCE. A modern fan would help too.

And if you just can't sleep at night thinking about water flow, try to avoid drinking water just before bed time, otherwise that bladder pressure will give you some crazy dreams. :sleep:
Click to expand...

Not drinking water at night, that is. Haha!

Changing out the radiator with an aluminum replica is also an option I'd like to pursue if this doesn't work. My issue is that at low RPM, the coolant doesn't circulate fast enough from the engine through the nearly 24 foot long cooling system. When you look at the water pump, (size) it's really too small for an effective job at low RPM. On a hot highway stuck in traffic in the middle of the summer, it's a problem. I know others suffer this same fate. My car has AC and I know this doesn't help with air flow.

Yesterday I was toying with my headlights and driving lights, plus re-filling the coolant system. Haven't wired up the pump as of yet but that's next on the list. I'll be posting to this thread again soon.

Thanks for your comments.
 
Bob you are on the right track.

But.... keeping the car as stock as possible. The man that has every light bulb changed to an LED? A purest you sadly are not.

Coolant temperature requires more area although the flow does suffer in the case of the X. Decreasing the impler to housing clearance will help flow at idle. However sitting in dead air will now leave the engine to bake, this causes the alternator to over heat and put out less amps, which slows the rad cooling fans and the spiral continues.

Last year when we did the night drive into Philly, I got stuck in stop and go traffic, no problem as I am running dual rads and a GM alternator. The above happened and for once in 10 years I was worried about a boil over. Turned on the car heater to blow out some more heat.

With the rain tray installed I do not have enought air going over the engine. The 40-80 camshaft needs more HP due to pumping loses to keep running at idle. What is also needed is ducting from the cooling fans to blow some air over the engine. Although warm air, any air moving back there is an improvement. Possibly a motorized rear engine cover that comes up in traffic to allow natural convection would be an asset. ( Possibly someone could design a circuit and find an actuator to do this task, hint, hint, hint.)

Your design, well thought out, well laid out will aid in flow providing the thermostat is open and there is flow. Take a compressed air blow gun and insert it into a 3" section of pipe. Blow air and go to the other end of the pipe. The air now moving far exceeds what the compressor is moving. Flow is amplified.

Well done.

TonyK.

Grimsby Ontario Canada.
 
Thanks TonyK...

I'm still getting the electrical situation finished. Between family commitments and lack of time, I didn't get the temperature testing done yet. Now I'm off to Houston TX in about 24 hours so it'll have to wait another weekend. But when I get back!.....

TonyK said:
But.... keeping the car as stock as possible. The man that has every light bulb changed to an LED? A purest you sadly are not.
Click to expand...

You mean to tell me that changing light bulbs violates the "purist creed?" :angel: Geez TonyK, you can't even see 'em til they're lit?! Now I feel like I violated my car! :lol: (j/k)

TonyK said:
Your design, well thought out, well laid out will aid in flow providing the thermostat is open and there is flow. Take a compressed air blow gun and insert it into a 3" section of pipe. Blow air and go to the other end of the pipe. The air now moving far exceeds what the compressor is moving. Flow is amplified.
Click to expand...

I appreciate this and hope it turns out that way. I'll keep you all posted. Thanks again...
 
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